Autopsy 2018 Rd 17 Kreuzer out early, another terrible loss

[Gethelred]

On the contrary, it is your post and posts by many other of the regular optimists here that is/are one big excuse.
And throughout the year the list of excuses has grown ever bigger, anything to absolve Bolton of the blame for how bad we have become.

I don’t need to find excuses for my being right, the record speaks for itself, 1 solitary win this entire year amongst a deluge of thrashing’s to teams just above us.

I wanted Bolton to succeed, but from the moment earlier in the year when he continued to play O’Shea every game while dropping young kids like weitering and JSOS etc, I started to doubt his ability, more bizarre selections later and eventually the last 2 weeks I’m convinced he needs to go and a more experienced coach brought in.

No, it is YOU that is making excuses!!!!!!

See, I can do it too!

Plenty of people have disproven the bolded to you in the past, but you changed the argument before picking up this thread again as though it wasn't disproven.

I've inexhaustible stamina for picking this particular argument, mate. I'll pick your posts to pieces, over and over again. Keep doing it, keep making excuses and shifting the goalposts whenever you start losing; I'll call you on it every single time.

Are we having fun yet?

 

[BIGGUS 64]

I learned a lot from the Malthouse years. Posters defending rattan up until the end.

Then once Malthouse had been appointed their message changed to "rats had to go, Malthouse is the man to take us forward etc etc"

Then defended Malthouse up until the end. Bolts is appointed "Malthouse had to go, bolton is the man to take us forward"

I've no doubt if bolton was sacked at the end of the year it would be a rinse and repeat.

There are many, who in their eyes, the club can do no wrong and always makes the right decision. Now I competely understand this is because they love the club, and ultimately want to hope the path we are on at any given time is the right one.

This inability to be objective is ultimately inconsequential to what actually happens at the club, because we are just fans talking about our club on the internet. It does however stifle discussion on here some what.

I think we constantly need to always question if the path we are on is the right one. I certainly hope internally at the club they are, because that is how good organisations improve and push forward.

Bolts as a senior coach does still have a lot to learn, and we knew that when we appointed him. It would be capricious and stupid to now sack him because he lacks experience in the role. The least we can do now is support him until he has had a fair crack at the job we hired him for. That hasn't happened yet: the "66-game rebuild" is not even complete and even then, surely he deserves a chance to actually coach the team that he was instrumental in rebuilding. Provide Bolts with a suitable mentor by all means, but he must remain as coach at least to the end of 2020.

Sack Bolts now and we just confirm that we are a club that lacks the stomach to choose a path and follow it through to the end, even when the journey is getting scary. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death. This is where courage is truly needed, from supporters, members, players, coaches, all the way to the board.
Who would we turn to next anyway? Who's our next messiah? Throw a king's ransom at Roos? Try and get Ratten back? lol

 

[ODNBlue]

That actually made no sense. Your punctuation was even more confusing.

So my observations are clouded by the fact I'm making them?

Basically, yes. Perhaps google 'observer bias' or 'observer-expectancy effect'.

How else would "I" make an observation without making one myself?

Just because you're the one making the observation, doesn't make it objective.

Do you suggest I take up ventriloquism?

Whatever helps.

Are you suggesting I'm biased for or against Carlton?

Neither, but I understand why you like the dichotomy.

Try not to outwit when you lack in the wit department.

I'm restraining myself.

Have you ever stood next to a mate who supports an opposition team and argued about an umpiring decision?

Is your mate always wrong? Or is it perhaps that your biases (and his) sway how you observe a particular situation?

The fact that you've taken my post personally means you haven't really understood the point, but you have gone along way to illustrate it.

We all have biases, in all areas of our life.

 

[BIGGUS 64]

No, it is YOU that is making excuses!!!!!!

See, I can do it too!

Plenty of people have disproven the bolded to you in the past, but you changed the argument before picking up this thread again as though it wasn't disproven.

I've inexhaustible stamina for picking this particular argument, mate. I'll pick your posts to pieces, over and over again. Keep doing it, keep making excuses and shifting the goalposts whenever you start losing; I'll call you on it every single time.

Are we having fun yet?

Unbelievable! Our woes apparently come down to O'Shea, voted most popular whipping boy for 2018. Poor bastard, what a burden he carries.

 

[AB_Blue]

Do you think that our problem is who takes the kick out as opposed to having no real strategy for our kick outs.

The only strategy I see is either a short kick out wide and then a bomb to outside 50, or a bomb directly to outside 50, but the effect is always the same, the opposition rush their numbers to either Cripps or Charlie and outnumber us when ball hits the ground.

Even with willo taking the kick outs, after that first kick, we don’t have a strategy to move the ball other than long kick out of defence.

It’s because our running game off half back is non existent. That and our elite kicks are on the sidelines.

That’s why a guy like SPS would be handy off the half back line....that’s why Cuningham had a few games there. They see all good kicks.........Right now we have Simmo and daisy

 

[I bleed Blue]

Not that you were necessarily talking to me, but the manner of your saying this connotates that you do not feel yourself included in this grouping.

Objectivity is indeed to be aspired to, but like perfection objectivity is utterly unachievable. You are a real person - you are, aren't you? - and you have lived in the world, had experiences and learned to like and dislike things; you have grown fond of some things and unhappy at others. To be objective is to have no point of view, no expectation, and no basis for judging a decision to be the correct one before assessing that particular decision.

No fan of a football club in the entire world can make a claim to objectivity when talking about their own club. No-one.

I never said that. I'm talking about this board as a whole. Me included.

I think what we have to remember, and is often lost here. Is that every single poster here absolutely loves the club. I would say we all love the club a lot more than you remember average supporter. Which is obvious because we take time out of our lives to log on here and discuss our club.

Of course we find it hard to be objective. I would like to hope as time goes on I'm trying to learn to be more objective.

I think some on here are better than others (ie harker for example). I'm sure we are all able at being objective at different issues at the club.

What we can be better at on here though is actually listening to negative comments from posters, even if the are labeled as a "winger".

Lets remember that poster loves the club too... We all want to see the Blues succeed and we all want to share in the joy when we do.

 

[Gethelred]

I never said that. I'm talking about this board as a whole. Me included.

I think what we have to remember, and is often lost here. Is that every single poster here absolutely loves the club. I would say we all love the club a lot more than you remember average supporter. Which is obvious because we take time out of our lives to log on here and discuss our club.

Of course we find it hard to be objective. I would like to hope as time goes on I'm trying to learn to be more objective.

I think some on here are better than others (ie harker for example). I'm sure we are all able at being objective at different issues at the club.

What we can be better at on here though is actually listening to negative comments from posters, even if the are labeled as a "winger".

Lets remember that poster loves the club too... We all want to see the Blues succeed and we all want to share in the job when we do.

I can't disagree with that.

 

[Show_Me_The_Money]

I can read just fine, that's why you have not added one shred of fact to the above result driven criteria.

• Yes, one win, but why? Does a coach, coach better if they are on top of the ladder, or does having a better team help with that perception/results? Bolton took over a Hawks outfit and won 5 straight games. Rather than listing what we all know, tell me WHY, what are the reasons we have won one game, as I would ask why are the Tigers on top of the ladder. Are Hardwick and Buckley poor coaches, or have they built continuity over a number of years? As I mention below, there are mitigating factors
• 100 points - For 2 years, we started with a defensive game, similar to the Demons (Demons never kicked 100 points in 2014), yet they had a much better list. Each and every game we have never put close to anywhere near our best 22, as well as suffering in game injuries in multiple games, while trying to add attacking layers. This is one of my issues. The attacking layers should have been more of a gradual implementation, especially with the number of injuries. But given this year was never about the wins/losses, the sooner they are implemented the better we will be in the future.
• 10 goal losses to sides around us - Let's dissect those games

Lions (Who started their rebuild 2013) - Had TWO, best 22 players Cameron and Andrews, we had Simmo, Doc, Willo, Levi, Plowman, Harry, Cuners, Byrne (From the consensus best 22) And another in game injury early on
Saints (Who stared their rebuild 2013) - Missing Brown, Bruce, Roberton, Stevens, we had Doc, Willo, Cuners, Levi, Weitering, Wright, Plowman(From the consensus best 22) And another in game injury early on

Even guys like Kerridge that were not considered best 22 at the start of the year are better options than some of the players we have had to bring in to replace best 22. Our better senior players, most have been out with long term injuries, Murphy, or injuries constantly throughout the season, MK. Only Simmo has been durable. The rest of the senior players on our list have been poor (even before the season started)

• Harry - Has missed games to illness and injury. Has come off 2 serious injuries, back and turf toe, did a mini preseason to help him improve his fitness levels/work-rate, they seem pretty good reason to me unless you are in the media
• Weitering playing through slight niggles, was rested for 2 weeks and came back through the VFL to regain touch and confidence

What should happen, is a full audit of our medical department, as well as the football department to ensure processes laid out before the start of they year, are being adhered too, not to go on a witch hunt to sack people because of any results in any area. Continue to go back to the draft while adding better experienced players in the 22 - 25 range

Now, rather than being so poorly summary based in your criticism, try and add the WHY, we are experiencing these results and WHAT should be done to improve them

You left out the Freo game, also a 10 goals loss, a game where they had 7 players that had played less than 16 games, compared to our three.

Re Bolton yes there are mitigating factors, but not enough to give excuses for our poor performances.

Don't bother with Harry, he was playing well, was dropped and only brought back in once the media applied pressure. We are talking about this year, not previous seasons, I think that's quite clear. The club's rubbish excuses don't fly with me. He well and truly showed he belongs. There are similar aged players playing poorly and still getting a game. Everyone knows the club has forked up here.

Weitering was dropped, to the reserves, for quite a few weeks. This is the bloke that exploded onto the scene in his first year, can play no doubt about it. Clealy uninspired and confused about his role.

Why are we having these performances? The coach is not up to it.

What should be done? Get a new coach.

I think I've been quite clear in saying this all along. Instead of trying to discredit by claiming I've provided no factual basis for my argument, try adding some factual basis to yours because it is extremely lacking in this regard.

 

[Arr0w]

You left out the Freo game, also a 10 goals loss, a game where they had 7 players that had played less than 16 games, compared to our three.

Re Bolton yes there are mitigating factors, but not enough to give excuses for our poor performances.

Don't bother with Harry, he was playing well, was dropped and only brought back in once the media applied pressure. We are talking about this year, not previous seasons, I think that's quite clear. The club's rubbish excuses don't fly with me. He well and truly showed he belongs. There are similar aged players playing poorly and still getting a game. Everyone knows the club has forked up here.

Weitering was dropped, to the reserves, for quite a few weeks. This is the bloke that exploded onto the scene in his first year, can play no doubt about it. Clealy uninspired and confused about his role.

Why are we having these performances? The coach is not up to it.

What should be done? Get a new coach.

I think I've been quite clear in saying this all along. Instead of trying to discredit by claiming I've provided no factual basis for my argument, try adding some factual basis to yours because it is extremely lacking in this regard.

The Dockers game where they still had a strong core of senior players. If you want to cherry pick, perhaps I throw in games such as WCE or Essendon, Is it difficult to comprehend that a young disseminated side will have inconsistent results?

The facts are clear on Harry, you just don't want to accept them

The facts are clear as to why Weitering was replaced, injury and you don't want to accept the facts. So a player's development isn't linear and you preclude he is uninspired and confused about his role, clutching at straws

Again you offer nothing in the why of reasons to WHY and WHAT needs to be done to improve the situation apart from the bold

I do agree that you have been clear, clear about nothing of substance. I have added more than enough FACTS and opinions as to why I believe things have not gone to the expectations of some.

 

[Iamcarlton]

All this talk of us missing Williamson is laughable. He has played one season ffs.

Williamson v Oshea um yeah i think we miss him!!

 

[bludrew79]

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents..
Really rapt with Harry's performance on Friday night...
Ran his guts out, played out of position.. kept finding ways to lead up at the player
Just really obvious that he knows the forward craft and how to position/lead..
Gutted when he hit the post in the 2nd, would have been great reward for effort to kick that one.

Just play the kid, belongs in Div1.. not this Bullants bush league stuff

 

[Gethelred]

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents..
Really rapt with Harry's performance on Friday night...
Ran his guts out, played out of position.. kept finding ways to lead up at the player
Just really obvious that he knows the forward craft and how to position/lead..
Gutted when he hit the post in the 2nd, would have been great reward for effort to kick that one.

Just play the kid, belongs in Div1.. not this Bullants bush league stuff

Good post, except the bolded.

We really need to get the Northern Blues working for us, playing well, as it's been that as the foundation for Hawthorn, WB and Richmond's successes, as they've played a single gameplan across both sides and when injuries have struck they've been able to switch out each component for the player that plays the same role/position, albeit not quite as well.

 

[bludrew79]

Good post, except the bolded.

We really need to get the Northern Blues working for us, playing well, as it's been that as the foundation for Hawthorn, WB and Richmond's successes, as they've played a single gameplan across both sides and when injuries have struck they've been able to switch out each component for the player that plays the same role/position, albeit not quite as well.

Oh look, I agree.. in a perfect world, playing VFL would give you experience required to play AFL.
My description of 'bush league' is actually more of a comment on the level of competition/playing style of the VFL as a whole.
I don't believe it to be the best breeding ground for talent for any club.

20 games for the Northern Blues, will not give you the experience or drive correct habits that playing 3 games at AFL would - IMO.

But agree we should be striving for it to be so.

 

[Show_Me_The_Money]

Did you see the game. Structurally he was in the side to be the forward/second ruck. After his first stint when Kruez was off all he could do was bit pieces and we had to watch in horror CC do the job for an extended period. We then had Rowe and Jones do extended time as our ruckman.

No dissing his forward game and saw some real improvement in his capacity to crash into packs - much improved from previous games.

Just saying that what the club has been saying about his fitness and consistency of effort was evident.

Disagree, he was there to do a bit part and he did. His consistency of effort was there for the entire game, he finished as well as he started. Especially for a forward in our side. I would argue he was no different to when he was in - let's not forget he was averaging 5 shots at goal a game before he was dropped, approximately 25% of that of the whole team. He didn't quite get there in this match, probably due to a lack of senior football.

 

[harrisendblue]

Disagree, he was there to do a bit part and he did. His consistency of effort was there for the entire game, he finished as well as he started. Especially for a forward in our side. I would argue he was no different to when he was in - let's not forget he was averaging 5 shots at goal a game before he was dropped, approximately 25% of that of the whole team. He didn't quite get there in this match, probably due to a lack of senior football.

Your judging him as a pure forward only however all sides need a relief ruckman. Without CAS then clearly Harry has that role or do you really think they planned to ruck charlie, rowee and jones. That's been one of the MC issues all year. If Harry cant provide the required level of ruck support then CAS is needed which then structurally means we are to tall.

Having to do more ruck work showed up his fitness deficiency. Like I said I was happy that he improved his consistency of effort , especially at contests.

Seeing him come off the ground after rucking reminded me of Troy Menzel coming off the ground.

 

[PP34]

I’d almost bet my left nacker that you would have spent the past few years saying Hardwick was a “dud coach”. How would you even know? He looked it, until he didn’t anymore! Experience my friend, it takes time and you learn every year.

So?

That doesn’t mean every coach is going to come good.

Should the Dogs or Dees have waited around for McCartney and Neeld to come good?

 

[Stamos]

So?

That doesn’t mean every coach is going to come good.

Should the Dogs or Dees have waited around for McCartney and Neeld to come good?

But Bolton isn't showing any of the negative signs that McCartney and Neeld were, ie losing the players. Morale is still good. All the players we want to keep are re-signing.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

I don't accept this. If we had a fit Marchbank, Plowman, Weitering and Williamson to go with Jones (ie 5 of our back 6, not Doc) we'd be doing a lot better in defence.

We would be doing a lot better if Jones wasn't there. He cant defend.

 

[Stamos]

We would be doing a lot better if Jones wasn't there. He cant defend.

This simply isn't true

 

[Accidental genius]

So?

That doesn’t mean every coach is going to come good.

Should the Dogs or Dees have waited around for McCartney and Neeld to come good?

But Bolton isn't showing any of the negative signs that McCartney and Neeld were, ie losing the players. Morale is still good. All the players we want to keep are re-signing.

......plus Bolton is still relatively very young, very enthusiastic and open to new ideas...you know... like a green shoot as opposed to dead wood

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

This simply isn't true

I stand by what I said. We will never improve defensively while he remains in the there. He needs to be replaced to allow Marchbank and Weitering to be the intercepting defenders they are.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

This simply isn't true

I stand by what I said. We will never improve defensively while he remains in the there. He needs to be replaced to allow Marchbank and Weitering to be the intercepting defenders they are.

 

[PP34]

But Bolton isn't showing any of the negative signs that McCartney and Neeld were, ie losing the players. Morale is still good. All the players we want to keep are re-signing.

I’m not saying we should get rid of him. I’ve said he deserves time.

I just find the idea that a coach deserves 7 years pretty damn ridiculous.

If you can’t work out after a few years if he’s the right man for the job or not then that’s a serious problem.

Hardwick wasn’t some struggling coach before they won the flag. They had improved every year until 2016 when they copped injuries and players didn’t play to their normal levels. They made the call to keep him based on what they’d seen him achieve prior to 2016

 

[Blue_Fusion]

I don't accept this. If we had a fit Marchbank, Plowman, Weitering and Williamson to go with Jones (ie 5 of our back 6, not Doc) we'd be doing a lot better in defence.

So what happened in round 2 against the Suns? Willo the only bloke missing from your list of 5 but we had Byrne instead. Jones had 8 kicked on him.

Willing to accept its more about structure and what's going on between the ears now?

 

[Stamos]

So what happened in round 2 against the Suns? Willo the only bloke missing from your list of 5 but we had Byrne instead. Jones had 8 kicked on him.

Willing to accept its more about structure and what's going on between the ears now?

Well, Weitering was played in the forwardline that game, so that's half the backline out.

It was a debacle though, no doubt, and still our worst performance under Bolton.