List Mgmt. 2018 St Kilda Trade Thread Part 1

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luca77

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but see thats the half arsed apointment that is killing us ... firstly how a guy who has never rucked at the highest level can teach a guy who has 60 games of rucking anything i dont understand , secondly why we are paying for a part time coach whos obvious priority is going to be his full time head coach job .. surely there is another option better than that heck Cain Ackland has more AFL ruck experiance than our ruck coach... even our midfield coach Simon McPhee although a smart bloke and good developer of the kids has zero AFL playing experiance (the highest level being WAFL reserves).. i like Simon McPhee as a development coach but as the voice controlling our midfield im not so confident...
Yeah, I think good coaches are often guys who weren't elite but had to use technique, game knowledge and cunning to forge a career and who depended on teamwork with the players around them.
Not always of course, but for the top midfielders, rucks, forwards e.t.c I think it's sometimes a case of "just do it. Why can't you do it? I did it." Probably just extrapolating from the failures of Voss, Buckley, Hird, Watson e.t.c but would expect Clarkson, Chris Scott, Ross Lyon, Hardwick e.t.c to be in that category. Mind you, thought Hardwick was a terrible coach until about August last year.
 

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Saintos

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just a question ... who is our Ruck coach ?
Adam Skrobalak was listed as Ruck coach but with him being Frankston coach his role would have to be only part time and again how many AFL games did Adam Skrobalak ruck in ??
other teams have got the likes of Dean Cox , Will Minson, Steven King i know Essendon were looking at Mark Jamar as a specialist ruck coach yet we got a no name who is working part time with his main focuse his head coaching job at a club not affiliated with us ... is it really any wonder that the boys in the Ruck are going backwards ? its any wonder we cant develop anyone and guys like Pierce have not come on .. who is teaching them their craft ?
Lonie
 

st_trav_ofWA

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I won’t hold the fact he hasn’t played at the highest level against him. There are a lot of coaches in the system who haven’t these days, even a head coach. Being able to play at the highest level doesn’t necessarily mean you are a smart footballer.

But in this case, he hasn’t taken any of our ruckman forward so I hope we are looking at better options.
i do agree in part that a coach doesnt need to have to have specifically played at the highest level as sometimes the greatest tactics come from those who only look at things externally.. but for a specialist coach who's job is to hone specific skills for a very specific role i think it is an important criteria especially when the two main rucks came in fairly green experiance wise and we traded out McEvoy..
how much do you reckon McEvoy credits his learnings to the fact he had Gardi and King in his formative years ?
 

luca77

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footy fans are funny like that ... 5 weeks ago we were thinking we were set for rucks and inside mids and all we needed was some outside class .. round one we were talking up the prospect of Paddy taking 10 grabs and booting 5 ... this week we are talking sacking the coach, trading out Steven, public flogging of Trout, playing without a ruck altogether and that we should have never traded BJ and Dal, heck even merger got a run ..
Yeah. Was one hell of a loss though.
 

StCicatriz

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but see thats the half arsed apointment that is killing us ... firstly how a guy who has never rucked at the highest level can teach a guy who has 60 games of rucking anything i dont understand , secondly why we are paying for a part time coach whos obvious priority is going to be his full time head coach job .. surely there is another option better than that heck Cain Ackland has more AFL ruck experiance than our ruck coach... even our midfield coach Simon McPhee although a smart bloke and good developer of the kids has zero AFL playing experiance (the highest level being WAFL reserves).. i like Simon McPhee as a development coach but as the voice controlling our midfield im not so confident...
now you're getting closer to the core of the issue on why our side is underperforming. its not the list. its not the drafting.

here's a post i made on the ruck situation, which explains its a much bigger problem than just the coaches. but rather the wholestic view on the development of the players going way back to when we kicked off the rebuild:
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...cond-premiership.1189861/page-9#post-54970252

i think we made the right move back in 2011 sorting out the recruitment team and list manage team
the next thing that should have been fixed was the alignment. it should have been done before moorabbin got off the ground

instead we got side tracked by the womens side that we dont even have
 

st_trav_ofWA

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now you're getting closer to the core of the issue on why our side is underperforming. its not the list. its not the drafting.

here's a post i made on the ruck situation, which explains its a much bigger problem than just the coaches. but rather the wholestic view on the development of the players going way back to when we kicked off the rebuild:
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...cond-premiership.1189861/page-9#post-54970252

i think we made the right move back in 2011 sorting out the recruitment team and list manage team
the next thing that should have been fixed was the alignment. it should have been done before moorabbin got off the ground

instead we got side tracked by the womens side that we dont even have
its all part and parcel ... you are getting caught up in one part of my point that we dont have leaders on the list as me saying our list is rubbish , thats never been what ive said .. the fact is our development has been done on the cheap we have not put in the hard yards to get the players to reach their potential .. we have just got the best kids in our opinion and expecting that the natural progression will get them over the line , yeah we have got guys with leadership qualities but who has developed them ? we have just expected them to click into gear we have gutted out experiance when the guys are still learning off them .. we are forcing leadership on guys who clearly dont have that trait ...
 

Beard of Zeus

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lets think about this logically ... why would North entertain downgrading a player? Pruess would be well ahead of both Longer and Hickey in their eyes and its not like North have cap issues so in their eyes they are better off keeping him then doing St Kilda a favour...
Pruess would need to be driving for a trade. North might allow it with further Pick(s) as Pruess is their second option behind Goldstein.
 

st_trav_ofWA

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Pruess would need to be driving for a trade. North might allow it with further Pick(s) as Pruess is their second option behind Goldstein.
ok let look at it this way ...
say North wanted Dunstan and Dunstan wanted out cause he wasnt getting a regular game cause he was behind Koby and Armo.. would you accept the offer of the player that cant crack Norths 22 for him or would you go find another club interested in him and is willing to give up something we might want ?

if we want something we gotta pay a fair price for it no club will give something that has value for something with little to no value we would have to offer up Hickey and a second rounder to even start the conversation
 

StCicatriz

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its all part and parcel ... you are getting caught up in one part of my point that we dont have leaders on the list as me saying our list is rubbish , thats never been what ive said .. the fact is our development has been done on the cheap we have not put in the hard yards to get the players to reach their potential .. we have just got the best kids in our opinion and expecting that the natural progression will get them over the line , yeah we have got guys with leadership qualities but who has developed them ? we have just expected them to click into gear we have gutted out experiance when the guys are still learning off them .. we are forcing leadership on guys who clearly dont have that trait ...
i didnt say you're caught up on one aspect, i just think your posts to date are off the money on where the problems are. you say you dont think its the list, but the very last sentence indicates you have a problem with how the list was put together. similar to the ruck mcevoy trade comment you made. my argument is that the list isnt the issue here. its not the amount of experience vs non experience. its not the type of players we drafted. its not how the trades were done. the big issue is the football dept and the decisions of the administration.

i've noticed today you are now moving in a direction closer to where i think the problems are. although still a bit of a way off for us to agree.

i dont agree with cheap comment entirely. the football dept spend is close to the cap and better than most clubs. we have the spend. we have the people. they just arent very good (i.e. we appoint the wrong people or are not attractive enough as a destination to get the right ones). the very difference between a club like hawthorn and us. they are better at developing what they have.

hawthorns facilities for what its worth are outdated as all ****. hence the dingley planning. so its not infrastructure spend. we both have the same cap.

i also dont agree with the last part either. like i've posted in the past there are a number of players who were drafted with leadership in mind. other clubs rated them. their state systems rated them. theyve shown leadership when they joined for their level. but it hasnt developed. the traits are there. we need to utilise them.
 

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gringo2011

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Weather it Coaches - Drafting - Drafts - Facilities - Father & Son rule - Development - Management, there always some BULLS**T excuse for the saints. Even on here we complain about the media picking on us, good god we do make it easy for them
Yeah that game really highlighted how ridiculously strong our self destructive streak is. I have always been able to send my excuses off to our lack of everything we don’t get. We finally get some easy games to start the season, a marquee game,a fair stadium deal etc. All we needed to do was show up put on a display of our best footy...... but Saints don’t do that. We’re like a dead beat dad that says he’ll turn up for Christmas but goes out on the piss and calls from lock up on Boxing Day asking for bail money. You have to have a strong constitution to follow us.
 

austinnn

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i didnt say you're caught up on one aspect, i just think your posts to date are off the money on where the problems are. you say you dont think its the list, but the very last sentence indicates you have a problem with how the list was put together. similar to the ruck mcevoy trade comment you made. my argument is that the list isnt the issue here. its not the amount of experience vs non experience. its not the type of players we drafted. its not how the trades were done. the big issue is the football dept and the decisions of the administration.

i've noticed today you are now moving in a direction closer to where i think the problems are. although still a bit of a way off for us to agree.

i dont agree with cheap comment entirely. the football dept spend is close to the cap and better than most clubs. we have the spend. we have the people. they just arent very good (i.e. we appoint the wrong people or are not attractive enough as a destination to get the right ones). the very difference between a club like hawthorn and us. they are better at developing what they have.

hawthorns facilities for what its worth are outdated as all ****. hence the dingley planning. so its not infrastructure spend. we both have the same cap.

i also dont agree with the last part either. like i've posted in the past there are a number of players who were drafted with leadership in mind. other clubs rated them. their state systems rated them. theyve shown leadership when they joined for their level. but it hasnt developed. the traits are there. we need to utilise them.
That all seems correct. How can it be that we keep getting the wrong people in though? Is it just the salary we offer or something else?

I wonder if you can be specific and name the development staff who you think haven't done their jobs well enough to validate continued employment. I can probably guess that its McPhee and Searle, for starters. Do Sexton and Cox as strategy and general football manager wear some responsibility too? Who is to blame for this situation we now find ourselves in?
 

StCicatriz

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That all seems correct. How can it be that we keep getting the wrong people in though? Is it just the salary we offer or something else?

I wonder if you can be specific and name the development staff who you think haven't done their jobs well enough to validate continued employment. I can probably guess that its McPhee and Searle, for starters. Do Sexton and Cox as strategy and general football manager wear some responsibility too? Who is to blame for this situation we now find ourselves in?
my take on it, and its just my opinion, is that the people we moved aside are the ones that we think arent up to it in their current roles or need further career development before they can do the role adequately. it could be they would be replaced but they're contracted so we had to bite the bullet, or maybe we see them a better fit in a lesser role

so:
cox = no afl background = demoted
sexton = no high level experience for a senior position = demoted
searle = no afl background = demoted
hammil = needs more experience coaching his own side = demoted
gilbee = underperformed VFL head coach = demoted

i think kingsley/mcphee were promoted. then you had some musical chairs, plus the new appointment of playfair, dixon etc.

why we keep getting it wrong. hiring is hard. especially in an organisation that's already poor with challenges. the more good people you get, the easier it is. mistakes get felt less. bad candidates get worked out quicker and sent on their way.

there's also the factor trav raised: who wants to come to st kilda, especially if say hawthorn are offering a spot.

i think assistants are also becoming increasingly more selective and betting on a future outcomes. for example clubs are becoming more reluctant on hiring coaches without any experience in a premiership winning side. you need that history of success. especially if the AFL's aim to churn through less senior coaches occurs (i.e. less jobs available). so why would you go to a side that hasnt played finals over a side that does? money is tight now with the cap too, so the big assistant dollars may not be there as it was before under the football dept arms race. i.e. can't get desperate and dangle the carrot of dollars to convince them
 

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just a question ... who is our Ruck coach ?
Adam Skrobalak was listed as Ruck coach but with him being Frankston coach his role would have to be only part time and again how many AFL games did Adam Skrobalak ruck in ??
other teams have got the likes of Dean Cox , Will Minson, Steven King i know Essendon were looking at Mark Jamar as a specialist ruck coach yet we got a no name who is working part time with his main focuse his head coaching job at a club not affiliated with us ... is it really any wonder that the boys in the Ruck are going backwards ? its any wonder we cant develop anyone and guys like Pierce have not come on .. who is teaching them their craft ?
He didn't even play ruck at east geelong when i saw him play. He was a forward that was one of the biggest thugs i ever saw and cost his team a grand final by belting someone after the three quarter time siren and leaving his team one short in the last quarter. Lost by a point from memory. Wouldn't mind some of that aggression (channeled better) flowing on to our rucks though. He had a massive presence onfield. You didn't run in his path without feeling it, that is for sure!
 

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arghhhhh i dont think i could handle Sloane choosing to leave the crows only to end up at Essendon... seriously if this happens we may as well give up on free agency for our club and just sit back as the comp becomes a two tier system where the rich clubs can buy their way out of having to ever fully bottom out ... heck all we need now is Hawthorn to say they are interested in him or Geelong
Could they fit sloane in? Smith saad and stringer would not have been cheap. Plus they had to overpay some of the suspended players to keep them onboard i thought. Heppell hooker hurley etc would be on very good coin.
 

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Could they fit sloane in? Smith saad and stringer would not have been cheap. Plus they had to overpay some of the suspended players to keep them onboard i thought. Heppell hooker hurley etc would be on very good coin.
I would think they are right on their cap.
But if Sloane does go to Essendon i would be checking their books .
Not that i believe Essendon would ever consider cheating . :rolleyes:
 

gringo2011

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Could they fit sloane in? Smith saad and stringer would not have been cheap. Plus they had to overpay some of the suspended players to keep them onboard i thought. Heppell hooker hurley etc would be on very good coin.
A lot of their players got compensation outside the cap. They doubled their wages with out it going in the SC.
 

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Football coach made kill threat

HeraldSun

April 19, 2007 12:00am

A COUNTRY football coach could face jail after pleading guilty to making threats to kill one of his former players.

Former Torquay Football Club coach Adam Skrobalak, 27, could be jailed for up to two years after admitting threatening to kill Brodie Marston, a reserves player at the club.

Skrobalak was sacked as Torquay's coach after charges were laid last year, and has since been appointed coach of the East Geelong Football Club.

He appeared in the Geelong Magistrates' Court on Tuesday where he pleaded guilty to one charge of making a threat to kill.

Police alleged Skrobalak left two threatening voice messages on Mr Marston's mobile phone on October 1 after Mr Marston had been in a fight with Skrobalak's brother. Skrobalak allegedly later sent two threatening text messages to Mr Marston.
 

soups1982

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Football coach made kill threat

HeraldSun

April 19, 2007 12:00am

A COUNTRY football coach could face jail after pleading guilty to making threats to kill one of his former players.

Former Torquay Football Club coach Adam Skrobalak, 27, could be jailed for up to two years after admitting threatening to kill Brodie Marston, a reserves player at the club.

Skrobalak was sacked as Torquay's coach after charges were laid last year, and has since been appointed coach of the East Geelong Football Club.

He appeared in the Geelong Magistrates' Court on Tuesday where he pleaded guilty to one charge of making a threat to kill.

Police alleged Skrobalak left two threatening voice messages on Mr Marston's mobile phone on October 1 after Mr Marston had been in a fight with Skrobalak's brother. Skrobalak allegedly later sent two threatening text messages to Mr Marston.

wow... classy individual
 

STK2020

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Football coach made kill threat

HeraldSun

April 19, 2007 12:00am

A COUNTRY football coach could face jail after pleading guilty to making threats to kill one of his former players.

Former Torquay Football Club coach Adam Skrobalak, 27, could be jailed for up to two years after admitting threatening to kill Brodie Marston, a reserves player at the club.

Skrobalak was sacked as Torquay's coach after charges were laid last year, and has since been appointed coach of the East Geelong Football Club.

He appeared in the Geelong Magistrates' Court on Tuesday where he pleaded guilty to one charge of making a threat to kill.

Police alleged Skrobalak left two threatening voice messages on Mr Marston's mobile phone on October 1 after Mr Marston had been in a fight with Skrobalak's brother. Skrobalak allegedly later sent two threatening text messages to Mr Marston.
Now we have left Seaford , can he stay behind ?
 
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