2019 1st Ashes Test - Edgbaston 1-5 August 2019

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Park cricketer

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Australia should be wary of getting complacent and actually go to Lords with a mindset that the real test starts now. Edgbaston was a great victory but it was not what you normally expect in England. Cricket in England is a lot more about what's above in the sky than what's below in the pitch. Sometimes you have a green wicket that plays a lot like a flat one because the weather is hot and the sun is beating down baking the pitch. Sometimes the pitch looks perfectly fine, but the conditions are muggy and overcast, and the duke ball starts hooping around like crazy.

I remember India touring England a few years ago when we drew on a road at Trent Bridge and had a historic victory at Lords. I remember being wildly optimistic about our chances after leading the series 1-0 going into the 3rd test. We got clobbered in the remaining matches and proceeded to lose the series 3-1. Batting against the swinging duke ball in typical english conditions is a whole new different kettle of fish and is a huge test of the temperament and patience of your team. Australia have got three things going in their way though -

1. Anderson might not be fit for the remainder of the series and that's a huge blow for England.

2. England's batting is not particularly good in those conditions either.

3. Australia have arguably the best batsman in the world in their side.

The toss plays a huge factor in these conditions too. Batting first is always an advantage eventhough it may look daunting and be a uphill battle at the start. Chasing a score with the ball moving both ways in the last innings is one of the most difficult challenges in cricket. I don't remember any side chasing a significant score in the last innings and succeeding in recent times in England apart from Hope and Braithwaite's masterclass at Headingley two years back.
 

Crankyhawk

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When England played Australia in a ODI at Perth Stadium a couple of years back, I went with my son who would have been 9. People got on the train at Murdoch until it was too full, then many stepped back to wait for the next train. We were jam packed. When we arrived at the next station, about 10 English supporters tried to squeeze into our carriage. We had nowhere to go and my son was getting squashed against a wheelchair. I pushed these guys back and said there is no room. (I had my England shirt on). "Stupid Aussies don't know how to use a train. Squeeze up everyone, plenty of room lads etc. blah blah blah". They pushed again.

My son's legs were up against a wheelchair and he did not have a centimetre of room to move. I grabbed one of them and pushed him off the train. "You're squashing my son. There is no room. Wait for the next train"".
In Japan, they fit more people on than this".
"That won't stop my son getting squashed right now will it?"
A tap on the shoulder from one of them. "You need to settle down mate"
I said something about not settling down while my son is getting squashed...
Went on for 5 minutes with the doors unable to be closed. Half of them got pushed off.

Arrive at the cricket. Sat with my in laws and old school mates. Had a great laugh. Went and found some other mates late in the day and went to the bar for a beer. Chatting to an Aussie in the queue. A drunk English fan comes and grabs me. "Caaaaaaarrrrrn. Let's beat these Aussie campaigners". I pushed him off me. "What's wrong with you mate? If you don't wanna be 'ere, be somewhere else !!!!" He screamed into my face.
"I do want to be here. I don't want you to be here."

At the end of the day, chatting to my son, he said will the train be like that for all of the Scorchers games? he was genuinely worried about going.
I said no, because it will be people going to enjoy themselves and watch the cricket. The English fans try to be more English than the next and try to impose themselves onto everybody. In short, when they get in a big group. They are a bunch of morons.

I'm a Pom. I don't find them charming either.
Re train could be what they are used to in London rush hour (super tight packed, people mould to the shape of the door etc)
 

Crankitup

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The toss plays a huge factor in these conditions too. Batting first is always an advantage even though it may look daunting and be a uphill battle at the start.
Eddie Smith argued along the same lines. I'm not sure I entirely agree. If batting first is so important why did England send India in first after winning the toss at both Nottingham and Lords last year? Surely England would bat first always in England when they win the toss if it was so important to do so. For the record, India won one of those matches and England won the other.

Similarly when Pakistan played England last year, England batted first in the first test match only for Pakistan to end up winning the match by 9 wickets. Then in the second match Pakistan batted first and ended up getting absolutely flogged.

Apart from the Ireland match and the first Ashes match this year, they are the most recent Test match results in England.

The season prior, the West Indies toured England. In 2 out of three matches, the side batting first lost.
 
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Tugga27

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The tour games on now

Harris and Bancroft opening, interesting they didn't give Warner a chance to get some form.

Harris Bancroft Khawaja Head Marnus Marsh Wade Paine Nesser Starc Hazlewood
Probably want to give Harris another crack at it.

They may be considering dropping Bancroft.
 

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Park cricketer

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Eddie Smith argued along the same lines. I'm not sure I entirely agree. If batting first is so important why did England send India in first after winning the toss at both Nottingham and Lords last year? Surely England would bat first always in England when they win the toss if it was so important to do so. For the record, India won one of those matches and England won the other.

Similarly when Pakistan played England last year, England batted first in the first test match only for Pakistan to end up winning the match by 9 wickets. Then in the second match Pakistan batted first and ended up getting absolutely flogged.

Apart from the Ireland match and the first Ashes match this year, they are the most recent Test match results in England.

The season prior, the West Indies toured England. In 2 out of three matches, the side batting first lost.
England sent in India to bat first at the Lords test because the first day of that test was completely rained out and the second day had muggy conditions with huge dark clouds looming above and one and off rains throughout the day. Because the entire first day was rained out, the pitch sweating under the covers was bound to have a lot of moisture in it and a pitch with moisture content allows a lot of seam movement which is what happened the next day. The ball was moving around due to swing in the air, but more than the swing, what made batting nigh on impossible was the prodigious seam movement. The ball moved very late after pitching and a lot of batsmen ended up getting squared up playing for the line of the delivery. The next day also had seam movement to start with but the difference was that the weather was sunny throughout and so the seam movement quickly dissipated after the moisture got sucked out under the baking sun. England dominated after the initial top order collapse and Woakes hit a ton lower down the order.

England lost at Nottingham because they quite naively sent India to bat first hoping that India were mentally destroyed after the Lords test and would repeat their first innings performance of the previous test. But the conditions were anything unlike Lords and while the pitch had some juice in it, India batted under perfect sunny overhead conditions and made hay on the first day while it was England's turn of bad luck as they collapsed under overcast conditions in the second day to a 5 fer from Pandya.

Batting in England can be a game of chances really because their weather is so erratic and the weather plays a bigger role than anywhere else in the world. You have to bat/bowl depending on the weather, I would say always bat first unless there are heavy overcast conditions and you expect the pitch to have some juice in it. Toss is extremely crucial because the weather has a huge impact on the game and it can be extremely erratic. You can have beautiful batting conditions the first day and very difficult batting conditions the very next day and so the toss gives you the chance to 'choose' your conditions so to speak.
 

Crankitup

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England sent in India to bat first at the Lords test because the first day of that test was completely rained out and the second day had muggy conditions with huge dark clouds looming above and one and off rains throughout the day. Because the entire first day was rained out, the pitch sweating under the covers was bound to have a lot of moisture in it and a pitch with moisture content allows a lot of seam movement which is what happened the next day. The ball was moving around due to swing in the air, but more than the swing, what made batting nigh on impossible was the prodigious seam movement. The ball moved very late after pitching and a lot of batsmen ended up getting squared up playing for the line of the delivery. The next day also had seam movement to start with but the difference was that the weather was sunny throughout and so the seam movement quickly dissipated after the moisture got sucked out under the baking sun. England dominated after the initial top order collapse and Woakes hit a ton lower down the order.

England lost at Nottingham because they quite naively sent India to bat first hoping that India were mentally destroyed after the Lords test and would repeat their first innings performance of the previous test. But the conditions were anything unlike Lords and while the pitch had some juice in it, India batted under perfect sunny overhead conditions and made hay on the first day while it was England's turn of bad luck as they collapsed under overcast conditions in the second day to a 5 fer from Pandya.

Batting in England can be a game of chances really because their weather is so erratic and the weather plays a bigger role than anywhere else in the world. You have to bat/bowl depending on the weather, I would say always bat first unless there are heavy overcast conditions and you expect the pitch to have some juice in it. Toss is extremely crucial because the weather has a huge impact on the game and it can be extremely erratic. You can have beautiful batting conditions the first day and very difficult batting conditions the very next day and so the toss gives you the chance to 'choose' your conditions so to speak.

Regarding Lords, there had been a heatwave in the days leading up to that Test so the pitch was quite dry before they put the covers on.

In Nottingham it was how intelligently India batted that was a big factor. Batsmen like Dhawan and Rahane shelved the drives and elected to score off the short pitched balls (negating any swing). England bowled too short too according to Root. No analysis of the Pakistan and West indies games I mentioned I see.
 

Park cricketer

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Regarding Lords, there had been a heatwave in the days leading up to that Test so the pitch was quite dry before they put the covers on.

In Nottingham it was how intelligently India batted that was a big factor. Batsmen like Dhawan and Rahane shelved the drives and elected to score off the short pitched balls (negating any swing). England bowled too short too according to Root. No analysis of the Pakistan and West indies games I mentioned I see.
I didn't analyse those games because I didn't follow those matches but I followed the entire India series.

I know that there was a heat wave prior the series and the general expectation of the pundits was that we were going to have dry wickets in the series with spinners having a lot of role to play. But it was anything but dry, because the curators pumped up a lot of water into the pitch and the outfield to keep moisture content in it, the Edgbaston curator actually revealed that the 1st test pitch was damp because they had erred on the damper side by watering it too much to prevent the pitch from cracking up due to the heat.

The head groundsmen at Edgbaston Gary Barwell revealed that the key was to keep watering the pitch and the outfield in the weeks leading up to the game. Around 150,000 litres of water had been pumped in and spread around the ground through pop-up sprinklers under the outfield.

“Moisture is the key here. Else, the pitch can crack up,”
said Barwell to Indian Express. “If you dig up to four inches, you will hit sand. We have been pumping water to keep this colour. If the outfield dries, the moisture would escape from the pitch. It literally cracks and it gets virtually uncontrollable.

With the pitch getting baked in the sun, some rain on Sunday, 10 days before the game, bought some respite for the city, and the groundsmen. “We weren’t expecting rain but it did some good.”

However, two days before the game, he received feedback that the pitch is damp. Unsurprising, given the quantity of water that had been utilized but better damp than dry, he thought.

This was the common theme throughout the series with the pitches having more moisture/juice in it and only the last wicket at the Oval was a bit of a dry wicket that was good for batting.
 

Crankitup

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I didn't analyse those games because I didn't follow those matches but I followed the entire India series.

I know that there was a heat wave prior the series and the general expectation of the pundits was that we were going to have dry wickets in the series with spinners having a lot of role to play. But it was anything but dry, because the curators pumped up a lot of water into the pitch and the outfield to keep moisture content in it, the Edgbaston curator actually revealed that the 1st test pitch was damp because they had erred on the damper side by watering it too much to prevent the pitch from cracking up due to the heat.

Yeah but the Lords curator didn't make the same mistake as Edgbaston's. The Guardian said the following on the eve of the Lord's test.

The first Test at Edgbaston was the best in this country since 2013. This match should - should - be something completely different: a highish-scoring affair on a pitch that will take turn as the match progresses. The heatwave means the pitch is expected to be very dry, although that heatwave is no more.
 

Park cricketer

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Yeah but the Lords curator didn't make the same mistake as Edgbaston's. The Guardian said the following on the eve of the Lord's test.
Well the Guardian were way off the mark by the look of things. They made their prediction expecting a heat wave but we all know how the weather panned out for much of the Lord's test.
 

Crankitup

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Well the Guardian were way off the mark by the look of things. They made their prediction expecting a heat wave but we all know how the weather panned out for much of the Lord's test.
They made the prediction despite knowing the forecast for the first day was for rain. I think we've strayed from my original point though. I said I didn't entirely agree with your following statement.

Batting first is always an advantage even though it may look daunting and be a uphill battle at the start.
I think I pointed out plenty of examples that prove that batting first isn't always an advantage. If the statement had been something like - 'Batting first in England is an advantage more often than not', we wouldn't be having this discussion.
 

Park cricketer

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They made the prediction despite knowing the forecast for the first day was for rain. I think we've strayed from my original point though. I said I didn't entirely agree with your following statement.



I think I pointed out plenty of examples that prove that batting first isn't always an advantage.
I must have elaborated on that a bit more. What I meant was that always bat first unless there's heavy overcast conditions and you expect the pitch to have juice in it. Most often, the pitch would look green but the weather would be fine and batting first would be a better option there despite the greenish looking pitch. Asian teams often do this mistake of bowling first whenever they encounter a green tinged pitch.
 
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