2019 4th Ashes Test 2019 Old Trafford

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Kram

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I left the TV sound on with the picture off, dozing in and out through most of it until the last couple of wickets which I got up to watch.
 

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to1994

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So apparently that photo wasn't mocking Leach and Smith was paying tribute to Chris Rogers.

In 2015 Rogers appeared to be the only player who knew the conditions. Even Smith failed when he ball was moving while Rogers survived because he knew how to play and the rest of the batting unit let him down in those really tough games where we were getting knocked over for **** all.

At that point it was the only time Smith really let us down, I think he felt that as well and probably learned a lot off Rogers and probably credits him and knows without that guidance he wouldn't have succeeded in England in all conditions like he has now.

Paine made a point of mentioning this didn't just start a few months ago, it was years in the making and the lessons Rogers gave them about batting in England, how to learn from their failures the last couple of times was probably part of that and Smith remembers.
 

The Passenger

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So apparently that photo wasn't mocking Leach and Smith was paying tribute to Chris Rogers.

In 2015 Rogers appeared to be the only player who knew the conditions. Even Smith failed when he ball was moving while Rogers survived because he knew how to play and the rest of the batting unit let him down in those really tough games where we were getting knocked over for **** all.

At that point it was the only time Smith really let us down, I think he felt that as well and probably learned a lot off Rogers and probably credits him and knows without that guidance he wouldn't have succeeded in England in all conditions like he has now.

Paine made a point of mentioning this didn't just start a few months ago, it was years in the making and the lessons Rogers gave them about batting in England, how to learn from their failures the last couple of times was probably part of that and Smith remembers.
Let the Poms go with the Leach line and keep whinging. Their hypocrisy over this supposed incident has been staggering, and have only added extra salt onto those already delicious tears.
 

ABAB

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There was a three year patch where Clarke most certainly had the pedigree and the statistics to be considered the best in the world, and while Smith may have gone past Ponting (I agree with you there) that isn't really relevant to the idea that we've taken no.1 bats in the world over there in the past only to have them struggle. Hazelwood indeed has learnt better from his first tour, that's rather the point. This tour represents more keenly the failures of previous tours, in that we absented ego to play a completely different way, shunning our blast them out method and our play-our-way aggression with the bat to knuckle down and make each innings count. And Johnson and Lee's stats going to England had a basis for believing that they would be successful over there, only to find that their lengths were wrong, their methods wrong, their skillsets wrong. We've taken Starc in previous tours, with his inswinging yorker supposedly tremendously successful under overcast English skies on a seaming deck, only to have him fail and get milked behind square.

I find it amusing that so many people are whinging about the level of failure on this tour, whilst trying also to defend how bad some of the players have been. On a realistic level, we've brought 4+ first time players to England for this Ashes. We've brought along Warner and Khawaja, both notoriously poor in English conditions. We've brought in Smith, after he was banned for 12 months and was a significant risk that he'd not be quite as good.

Name the year in which you think the team we have taken to England is worse than this one.
I thought the side that tour England in 2015 was way worst with our best player in Clarke past his peak, we had an inexperience fast bowlers in Hazelwood and Starc (when Harris got injured and subsequently forced to retire early) with inconsistent spinner in Lyons as our bowling line-up. At least this time we had the World's number Test fast bowler in Cummins and spinner in Lyon entering or at their peak so the bowling line-up is comparable a lot stronger this time.

The batting line-up we sent this time was more unknown on how Smith and Warner would perform than I consider worst than the 2015 one as both Warner and in particular Smith have improved a lot since they last tour there. So you can have a few okay batters who just need to bat around these 2 (which Wade and Head did on certain time around Smith), Warner has stunk but Labs has pick up his slack so I also think this batting line-up is a tad weaker compared to the 2015 one (beside the opener positions and Haddin's batting compared to Paine) so in the end, I consider it a stronger team than the 2015 one.
 

Gethelred

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I thought the side that tour England in 2015 was way worst with our best player in Clarke past his peak, we had an inexperience fast bowlers in Hazelwood and Starc (when Harris got injured and subsequently forced to retire early) with inconsistent spinner in Lyons as our bowling line-up. At least this time we had the World's number Test fast bowler in Cummins and spinner in Lyon entering or at their peak so the bowling line-up is comparable a lot stronger this time.

The batting line-up we sent this time was more unknown on how Smith and Warner would perform than I consider worst than the 2015 one as both Warner and in particular Smith have improved a lot since they last tour there. So you can have a few okay batters who just need to bat around these 2 (which Wade and Head did on certain time around Smith), Warner has stunk but Labs has pick up his slack so I also think this batting line-up is a tad weaker compared to the 2015 one (beside the opener positions and Haddin's batting compared to Paine) so in the end, I consider it a stronger team than the 2015 one.
That would be the only side you could make the case is worse than this side, but it features the best hits of the current team plus Haddin and Clarke. That, coupled with an in form Warner, is why I judge that tour party stronger than this one.

Without Smith, we failed to pass 300 twice. It was only due to a profound effort and discipline from our bowlers in the first dig at Headingley managed to get us any lead at all. Smith is the only member of the party this tour that you can say is a direct upgrade over any of 2015's tour, and even then we had the batting and the bowling to expect a better showing than we got.
 

frankrizzo

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So apparently that photo wasn't mocking Leach and Smith was paying tribute to Chris Rogers.

In 2015 Rogers appeared to be the only player who knew the conditions. Even Smith failed when he ball was moving while Rogers survived because he knew how to play and the rest of the batting unit let him down in those really tough games where we were getting knocked over for **** all.

At that point it was the only time Smith really let us down, I think he felt that as well and probably learned a lot off Rogers and probably credits him and knows without that guidance he wouldn't have succeeded in England in all conditions like he has now.

Paine made a point of mentioning this didn't just start a few months ago, it was years in the making and the lessons Rogers gave them about batting in England, how to learn from their failures the last couple of times was probably part of that and Smith remembers.
So it's just archer who mocks his ashes opponents then?

Im sure the english will be right into him just like they were with smith.
 

Quinz

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Let the Poms go with the Leach line and keep whinging. Their hypocrisy over this supposed incident has been staggering, and have only added extra salt onto those already delicious tears.
Crying Smith masks- just bantz
Sandpaper costumes- ArE We CrOsSiNg ThE LiNe??
Fans abusing Warner- Aussies can dish it but can't take it
Archer imitating Smith- more bantz mate
Murray Minter Harmison's hypocrisy- telling it like it is

Smith imitating Leach- Disgraceful and unsporting. Same old despicable Aussies!

The fact that they're fizzing over something that didn't even happen is even funnier.
 

Topkent

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How quickly people forget. Captain bashing has been going on ever since Lawry got sacked and was replaced with Chappell. Every Captain since has been criticized for people's perceptions of tactical errors..strategic mistakes etc. When to declare...bowl or bat first...field placings...there all grist for the mill. The emphasis on the Captain quite frankly is BS. If everyone plays their PART and at a high level we will succeed. Players are human they have good days and bad days. The Captain is no different. Paine has played his PART..made mistakes certainly..failed with the bat sometimes..yes. But overall we SHOULD be 3 nil up.
His keeping by the way has been very good. I hope they do go for the 5th test win because Paine's Legacy will reflect that. AS I said earlier the Paine knockers can get stuffed.
Has his keeping been very good? The third test Warner had to take 2 catches diving to his left the were easily keepers catches and then again this test can't remember who but edged a Cummins drive between keeper and slip and Paine no movement again

If I'm wrong I'm happy to be corrected but the point of having first slip deep is so that the keeper can dive across to him to take a catch. The slip shouldn't be diving back towards the keeper.

He certainly isn't a bad keeper and the catch of Stokes inside edge was very nice footwork but I feel his age definently holds his athleticism back
 

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DAlembert

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Agree and captain bashing for some is a sport.
In my last years as a player I skippered at a decent level and often had to endure the President of the club shouting constant suggestions from the boundary line. I'd confront him during a break, he'd apologise but then no sooner had we recommenced play he would start again, some people just can't help themselves.
ALL skippers make mistakes, it comes with the job, and aside from Taylor, Waugh and perhaps Ponting, Paine is one of the most experienced modern day captains we've ever had
Has his keeping been very good? The third test Warner had to take 2 catches diving to his left the were easily keepers catches and then again this test can't remember who but edged a Cummins drive between keeper and slip and Paine no movement again

If I'm wrong I'm happy to be corrected but the point of having first slip deep is so that the keeper can dive across to him to take a catch. The slip shouldn't be diving back towards the keeper.

He certainly isn't a bad keeper and the catch of Stokes inside edge was very nice footwork but I feel his age definently holds his athleticism back
I think you could argue that First slip fielded quite wide in that test. In the "normal" position that catch Warner took would have been more str8 forward. The other catch hit bat onto pad and flew over Paine shoulder. The fact it hit the pad slowed the ball down and gave Warner the time to get well across. Both very good catches but Paine was not a monty on either. I agree he is past being the "very" best keeper. He was a stop gap Captain afterall in a side that had got out of control because of Smith's weak leadership. I think he deserves to remain until the end of 2020 in that position. After all this Summer coming should not seriously challenge Australia. We need to find some batsman who can actually bat like a test cricketer and not short game style. First slip deep IMHO is a combination of giving the slipper a bit more time as fine snicks go quick and covers a keeper who has been wrong footed. Generally I think the ozzies stand wider at slip than is conventional and this will always lead to the odd snick finding the gap. More conventional set up is that they overlap. To support your view tho I would like to see the next keeper be 25 or younger as he starts his career.
 

wolmeister

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The posts in this thread about Lyon (and Paine at times) are bloody embarrassing. Just because Lyon didn’t take 5 wickets in the first session doesn’t mean he bowled poorly. It took patience, good captaincy and a team bowling performance to eventually grind England down, which Lyon assisted with his 2 wickets. It’s not like he was getting spanked for 6 an over and not looking threatening at all, he created many close chances that eventually reaped wickets.
How much of that innings did you watch? Lyon didn’t bowl well and wasn’t all that threatening on a pitch that was turning quite a lot. He bowled the wrong line (too straight) on a consistent basis with the batsman turning him into the leg side with ease. Didn’t help that Tim’s field didn’t have many attacking fielders, for example no leg slip, no men around the bat for long periods. Paine’s captainancy wasn’t that impressive either, IMO. Sure, he bringing Lab on which turned out to be a great move. However, he’s quite defensive and let’s the game drift for far too long, which is part of the reason we lost at Headingley. I guess no-one is allowed to be critical because we won?
 

Topkent

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I wish I remember who it was who was demanding Starc to play because of the footmarks for Lyon ... Was especially satisfying when CricViz showed Lyons record was worse when Starc was playing 😂

Bet he won't put his hand up
 

DAlembert

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Agree and captain bashing for some is a sport.
In my last years as a player I skippered at a decent level and often had to endure the President of the club shouting constant suggestions from the boundary line. I'd confront him during a break, he'd apologise but then no sooner had we recommenced play he would start again, some people just can't help themselves.
ALL skippers make mistakes, it comes with the job, and aside from Taylor, Waugh and perhaps Ponting, Paine is one of the most experienced modern day captains we've ever had
Has his keeping been very good? The third test Warner had to take 2 catches diving to his left the were easily keepers catches and then again this test can't remember who but edged a Cummins drive between keeper and slip and Paine no movement again

If I'm wrong I'm happy to be corrected but the point of having first slip deep is so that the keeper can dive across to him to take a catch. The slip shouldn't be diving back towards the keeper.

He certainly isn't a bad keeper and the catch of Stokes inside edge was very nice footwork but I feel his age definently holds his athleticism back
I think you could argue that First slip fielded quite wide in that test. In the "normal" position that catch Warner took would have been more str8 forward. The other catch hit bat onto pad and flew over Paine shoulder. The fact it hit the pad slowed the ball down and gave Warner the time to get well across. Both very good catches but Paine was not a monty on either. I agree he is past being the "very" best keeper. He was a stop gap Captain afterall in a side that had got out of control because of Smith's weak leadership. I think he deserves to have the Job at least for the coming summer
 

CrowBloke

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Lyon didn’t bowl well and wasn’t all that threatening on a pitch that was turning quite a lot. He bowled the wrong line (too straight) on a consistent basis with the batsman turning him into the leg side with ease.
This,
plus Lyon has no straight/arm ball which is odd, and not very hard to do (not as hard as spinning the ball).
On a turning wicket, the occasional arm ball will catch the outside edge.
 

ABAB

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That would be the only side you could make the case is worse than this side, but it features the best hits of the current team plus Haddin and Clarke. That, coupled with an in form Warner, is why I judge that tour party stronger than this one.

Without Smith, we failed to pass 300 twice. It was only due to a profound effort and discipline from our bowlers in the first dig at Headingley managed to get us any lead at all. Smith is the only member of the party this tour that you can say is a direct upgrade over any of 2015's tour, and even then we had the batting and the bowling to expect a better showing than we got.
I think Lyon can be consider an upgrade evident by his bowling on the 4/5th day of the 1st Test, also got the very important wicket of Denly in the 4th Test while clearly bowling with an injured spinning finger (he has failed to perform on the 2nd innings in the past), Hazelwood is a way better bowling this time around and we Cummins this time, even if Harris was fit and able to play that 2015 series and did well, I would still consider Cummins would be an upgrade.
 
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