List Mgmt. 2019 Draft and Trade Hypotheticals Thread

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The guts doesn’t need to be a wholesale clean out, it needs for those that are currently there to improve (JPK is excused) and anyone else that comes in to do their job. Absolute rubbish otherwise!
If you think we don't need to refesh the midfield that's where we disagree. I feel a top 2-5 pick this year is important for this (I've given up getting Rowell as I do feel we will win enough to avoid the spoon), as there are high calibre mids up there. Anderson would be a great get ideally.
 

Mick Oxlong

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If you think we don't need to refesh the midfield that's where we disagree. I feel a top 2-5 pick this year is important for this (I've given up getting Rowell as I do feel we will win enough to avoid the spoon), as there are high calibre mids up there. Anderson would be a great get ideally.
Excellent, I’ll give you pick 3 Callum Mills. Go find a HB, they don’t cost as much!
 
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Hewett, Heeney, Florent, Blakey and Rowbottom. That's five. You could swap Blakey and Dawson as both can play forward and midfield. Then you still have Kennedy and Parker who, despite being past their best, can rotate through there. That's eight. Throw in Jones, who may decide to stay, and that's nine.

Obviously we're not seeing them at their best yet because a) they're young, and b) they're not all being played as mids yet. But the pieces are all there.

It will just require patience, and also Horse not being a goose and playing them as on-ballers.
Do you honestly bar Heeney, Blakely and Rowbottom and the latter two are first year players, see any as A grade or elite mids? That is where my criticism is, I think the others will be very good mids, I don't see those being elite mids. I see them as nice role players, which don't get me wrong is fine, but in 2019 where the midfield is everything, you need top class and quality.

I'm realistic, we are 2 years away, and that's fine. We will see some improvements next year. It's a long process and each off season for the next two years it should be seen as a chance to improve our list. We will be fine, and I trust the people in charge of the recruitment.
 

Mick Oxlong

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Do you honestly bar Heeney, Blakely and Rowbottom and the latter two are first year players, see any as A grade or elite mids? That is where my criticism is, I think the others will be very good mids, I don't see those being elite mids. I see them as nice role players, which don't get me wrong is fine, but in 2019 where the midfield is everything, you need top class and quality.

I'm realistic, we are 2 years away, and that's fine. We will see some improvements next year. It's a long process and each off season for the next two years it should be seen as a chance to improve our list. We will be fine, and I trust the people in charge of the recruitment.
I’m sorry but this need for A grade or Elite mids is a myth, this is a team sport and so long as they can work together, like many midfields do, that is all that matters. There’s an old saying ‘a champion team will always beat a team of champions’. Never been a truer statement ever (well, the death and taxes one does), has there GWS?
 
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I’m sorry but this need for A grade or Elite mids is a myth, this is a team sport and so long as they can work together, like many midfields do, that is all that matters. There’s an old saying ‘a champion team will always beat a team of champions’. Never been a truer statement ever (well, the death and taxes one does), has there GWS?
An elite mid or two will definately help though. We need some more class in the middle though.
 

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An elite mid or two will definately help though. We need some more class in the middle though.
I don’t think you’re reading. Teamwork does not need elite, it needs consistency. Do you think Kirk was elite? **** no, he was a battler and a damn fine one at that! Jude Bolton? Ryan O’Keefe? Ben McGlynn, Kieren Jack, Craig Bird, Dan Hannebery? Oh that’s right, you were Johnny Diesel!
 

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Do you honestly bar Heeney, Blakely and Rowbottom and the latter two are first year players, see any as A grade or elite mids? That is where my criticism is, I think the others will be very good mids, I don't see those being elite mids. I see them as nice role players, which don't get me wrong is fine, but in 2019 where the midfield is everything, you need top class and quality.

I'm realistic, we are 2 years away, and that's fine. We will see some improvements next year. It's a long process and each off season for the next two years it should be seen as a chance to improve our list. We will be fine, and I trust the people in charge of the recruitment.
I don't see why Hewett can't become a beast of JPK's variety, if not his ilk. I think Florent will be an A-grader, very classy by hand and as I said, the only source of pace through our midfield besides Jones. But that's beside the point.

I think you're confused about what you want to see. You say you know you have to be patient and that our midfield won't come together overnight, yet you're comparing us with Collingwood's midfield, which is full of blokes who have played over 100 games (Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Adams, Beams, Treloar) and a team that's currently smack bang in the middle of their premiership window while we are rebuilding in 16th place on the ladder. Two teams at very different stages. Collingwood spent years preparing this midfield, trading in Adams, followed by Treloar, followed by Beams, all after Pendles and Sidebottom had already become established superstars for several years. We are only just now beginning the turn-over that will see our champions make way for the next generation to establish themselves.

I think Hewett has made positive strides in the last few weeks to show that he can be a very good on-baller instead of just a tagger. Florent has stagnated, which is fair after a pretty stratospheric rise in his second year that probably defied science. He will come good. And we've only just begun unshackling Heeney into more of a full-time midfield role. He will take time to adapt in there. Ditto Dawson, who is only just now getting regular games and confidence at senior level. All of this is happening and we haven't even pulled the trigger on Blakey and Rowbottom, both of whom I think could be anything. So a loooong way to go before we are at Collingwood's level, and that's fine by me. As long as Horse doesn't get in the way of these moves happening.
 

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I don’t think you’re reading. Teamwork does not need elite, it needs consistency. Do you think Kirk was elite? **** no, he was a battler and a damn fine one at that! Jude Bolton? Ryan O’Keefe? Ben McGlynn, Kieren Jack, Craig Bird, Dan Hannebery?
The game has changed though, you need class and especially foot skills. You need to be able to kick well. It's why possessions so to speak aren't the only thing that is important before you draft/trade someone nowadays surely.
 

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The game has changed though, you need class and especially foot skills. You need to be able to kick well. It's why possessions so to speak aren't the only thing that is important before you draft/trade someone nowadays surely.
Oh pull the other leg, you’re making excuses. You need to get the ball and move it forward. The only thing that’s possibly changed is the way you move it. It’s still kick ball, mark ball, handball and goal!
 
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Oh pull the other leg, you’re making excuses. You need to get the ball and move it forward. The only thing that’s possibly changed is the way you move it. It’s still kick ball, mark ball, handball and goal!
The way you move it is all about class, in other words effective possessions and not turning it over. It's why it is useless getting players like Clarke who just turn it over. We must be careful who we target.
 

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The way you move it is all about class, in other words effective possessions and not turning it over. It's why it is useless getting players like Clarke who just turn it over. We must be careful who we target.
Since when has football been a game of class? There are classy players (very few of them) but it is not a game of class...the shape of the ball is the first reason why!
 
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Since when has football been a game of class? There are classy players (very few of them) but it is not a game of class...the shape of the ball is the first reason why!
Lets agree to disagree, I personally see the game moving towards sides that can really kick the ball and split open mids and defences. It's a personal view, lets see what happens. You feel it's the other way, that is 100% fine.
 

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Lets agree to disagree, I personally see the game moving towards sides that can really kick the ball and split open mids and defences. It's a personal view, lets see what happens. You feel it's the other way, that is 100% fine.
I get your point of view, but I don't think playing with class is as complicated as it sounds. Teams like Collingwood and Richmond (when they're on), win the ugly, scrappy ball on the inside. The hard balls that require more grunt than class. Then once they have possession, they don't do anything spectacular with it. They just use simple, effective uncontested kicks to targets who have found space through hard-running and presenting. It's not like they're doing a Daicos and curving bananas around their opponents to open the field of play. It's as simple as player A works hard enough to get into space, so that player B can do a simple 25-30m kick straight into their bread-basket, and then repeat, and repeat again, until you're in a scoring position. That doesn't require class or an elite boot. It requires very basic skills and a good work rate. Any team is capable of it, even our list.

Where it's less simple is on the inside, when a 50/50 ball is up for grabs and you have mids not willing to crack in, not able to stick their tackles, not willing to hold their direct opponent accountable, or worrying too much about their opponent to go for the ball themselves. Or, mostly in our case, not being able to handle contested footy, panicking, and coughing the ball up straight into the arms of an opponent at the first sign of pressure. If you're good enough at winning these 50/50 contests, the slicing up of your opponents will usually take care of itself because you'll be able to control the possession from centre bounce to scoring opportunity.
 
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I get your point of view, but I don't think playing with class is as complicated as it sounds. Teams like Collingwood and Richmond (when they're on), win the ugly, scrappy ball on the inside. The hard balls that require more grunt than class. Then once they have possession, they don't do anything spectacular with it. They just use simple, effective uncontested kicks to targets who have found space through hard-running and presenting. It's not like they're doing a Daicos and curving bananas around their opponents to open the field of play. It's as simple as player A works hard enough to get into space, so that player B can do a simple 25-30m kick straight into their bread-basket, and then repeat, and repeat again, until you're in a scoring position. That doesn't require class or an elite boot. It requires very basic skills and a good work rate. Any team is capable of it, even our list.

Where it's less simple is on the inside, when a 50/50 ball is up for grabs and you have mids not willing to crack in, not able to stick their tackles, not willing to hold their direct opponent accountable, or worrying too much about their opponent to go for the ball themselves. Or, mostly in our case, not being able to handle contested footy, panicking, and coughing the ball up straight into the arms of an opponent at the first sign of pressure. If you're good enough at winning these 50/50 contests, the slicing up of your opponents will usually take care of itself because you'll be able to control the possession from centre bounce to scoring opportunity.
Fair points, there is probably a bit of both, and you will ideally have a mix of different mids in your side.
 
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And I think we will, they're just all over the shop at the moment! (The fact Horse is scared to pull the trigger on a few of them doesn't help.)
Think last week was a bit better and we did see some changes through there. That’s a positive.

We need to hit the 2019 and 2020 drafts and by 2021 no question in my mind we will be back up there again
 

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Think last week was a bit better and we did see some changes through there. That’s a positive.

We need to hit the 2019 and 2020 drafts and by 2021 no question in my mind we will be back up there again
I don’t disagree, particularly if we’re gonna be lower on the ladder we might as well get something positive out of it in the form of an elite pick. But we also must recruit an established gun player or two in that time so that they will be the finishing touches on our midfield, in time to strike by 2021. As much as I rate the young list we’ve drafted and built, those names alone won’t be able to be a contending team.
 
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I don’t disagree, particularly if we’re gonna be lower on the ladder we might as well get something positive out of it in the form of an elite pick. But we also must recruit an established gun player or two in that time so that they will be the finishing touches on our midfield, in time to strike by 2021. As much as I rate the young list we’ve drafted and built, those names alone won’t be able to be a contending team.
Free Agency should be where you really can go after a few. I’d be hesitant using a real high pick on a trade.

I’ve said it before but I’d look to trade our 2020 first (as it’s likely to be useless anyway) for a pick this year
 

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Free Agency should be where you really can go after a few. I’d be hesitant using a real high pick on a trade.

I’ve said it before but I’d look to trade our 2020 first (as it’s likely to be useless anyway) for a pick this year
Possibly, but 2020 may be when we want to strike on an established gun, as this year’s options are fairly limited. I really believe our young group will form a really good, competitive team in the future as they become really good players, but I don’t know that. At some point, we have to add some known entities to this group or we’re relying on pure promise and potential to take us into the next generation. That’s a big gamble. Next year’s first may be part of that move. Because given what’s at stake in this year’s draft (a very clear top two), you won’t be able to pick-trade your way into a first or second pick.
 
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Possibly, but 2020 may be when we want to strike on an established gun, as this year’s options are fairly limited. I really believe our young group will form a really good, competitive team in the future as they become really good players, but I don’t know that. At some point, we have to add some known entities to this group or we’re relying on pure promise and potential to take us into the next generation. That’s a big gamble. Next year’s first may be part of that move. Because given what’s at stake in this year’s draft (a very clear top two), you won’t be able to pick-trade your way into a first or second pick.
We have that academy kid in 2020 so my thinking is why not trade out and match that with a couple of seconds (would require us acquiring another second from somewhere but that’s another thing). Turn our 2020 pick into basically a free hit. I’d personally like to trade it to a top 7-10 selection this year. Now whether that’s possible or realistic I’m not sure. Could even turn that pick into a late first and a second.
Plenty of options.

The 2020 list of free agents look a lot better though agree there
 

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We have that academy kid in 2020 so my thinking is why not trade out and match that with a couple of seconds (would require us acquiring another second from somewhere but that’s another thing). Turn our 2020 pick into basically a free hit. I’d personally like to trade it to a top 7-10 selection this year. Now whether that’s possible or realistic I’m not sure. Could even turn that pick into a late first and a second.
Plenty of options.

The 2020 list of free agents look a lot better though agree there
Yeah you make some good points. Still, lots can happen in between now and then. Sir Dane and Aliir could both get injured and then we would definitely, without a doubt, be getting Rowell. Who knows where we’ll end up. I just hope Horse pulls his finger out and stops playing blokes who don’t deserve selection, and then I’d happily cop whatever wins or losses we’ll get along the way!
 
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