List Mgmt. 2019 List Changes, Contract Status, Draft Picks Etc

[manicpie]

Totally agree. No idea how anyone can be complaining about re-signing Madgen. Late in the year he showed that he was adequate depth. He should be better again next year and as a Cat B rookie, he costs zilch, nada, zip in terms of salary cap. Whilst we have a tight cap, how can anyone complain about depth that doesn't cost a cent in terms of TPP? You'd only consider delisting him if you were keen on an alternative Cat B rookie.

I think the concern is if we have to rely on Magden as a Key Position defender if the time comes, I agree that he looked quite good last year but not playing as a KPD

 

[well left]

If we were to target someone like Walker we would still keep Madgen. It would be Reid to make way. Madgen gets unfairly canned on here. He has done a decent job when given the nod and offers decent depth.

Agreed. Sort of.

The issue isn’t Madgen in isolation. It’s Madgen combined with Keane, Tohill, Wilson and Kelly.

I think we’ve had to retain Madgen and Reid because the 4 I mentioned above are too raw, probably add Cameron to this list also. It means we’ve had to retain both Reid and Madgen as more mature bodies as the age and development profile of our talls is out of whack!

A Josh Walker type would be handy but it’d have to be at the expense of players like Reid, Scharenberg or Keane on our list and not Madgen.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[whiskeytown]

If we were to target someone like Walker we would still keep Madgen. It would be Reid to make way. Madgen gets unfairly canned on here. He has done a decent job when given the nod and offers decent depth.

Firstly, thanks for a respectful reply and not a smarmy one.

Nowadays a KPF only.... Reid wouldn't make way for a KPD DFA. Not unless that KPD could effectively swing forward.

Magden is not going to significantly improve from another 12 months in the system. He is not and will never be an AFL grade fullback.

Better served as a Goldsack like general defender but lacks speed and the leap and spoil ability of Goldsack. From what I've seen Keane is already at leaping and spoiling.

Magdens only strengths are between his ears... his character and nous. He'd make a fine VFL captain

 

[manicpie]

Have you ever read anything more underwhelming than Broomhead, Madge & Wills signing on for 2020?


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

I felt even more underwhelmed when we upgraded Lynch to the senior group, but I agree with you, it kind of makes me feel empty

 

[Pragmatic Shill]

Firstly, thanks for a respectful reply and not a smarmy one.

Nowadays a KPF only.... Reid wouldn't make way for a KPD DFA. Not unless that KPD could effectively swing forward.

Magden is not going to significantly improve from another 12 months in the system. He is not and will never be an AFL grade fullback.

Better served as a Goldsack like general defender but lacks speed and the leap and spoil ability of Goldsack. From what I've seen Keane is already at leaping and spoiling.

Magdens only strengths are between his ears... his character and nous. He'd make a fine VFL captain

But you're still missing the point. Someone on the senior list would have to make way for a DFA, they wouldn't be pushing Madgen out. Madgen would still be on the list.

 

[Apex36]

You miss the point. What you are saying is you'd rather Magden than say Walker on the list because Magden costs nothing as a Cat B and a DFA like Walker might cost 150k.

Do you think they will now take a KPD DFA if they are persevering with Magden?

Just because there are Cat B slots that can be filled doesn't mean they a) should be and b) that inadequate Cat B rookies like Magden should be relied on at the expense of a competent KPD on minimum salary.... and an additional spot being taken up on the primary or rookie list

So if injury strikes Moore and Rougheads and we have Magden lining up at full back next year on Lynch, Cameron, etc....because young Kelly and Keane aren't up to that task yet.... I'll be watching what you say.

No, I got your point, I just think it’s dumb. Considering that we have Dunn potentially coming back on to the rookie list, that means there’s still a free spot for a KPD should the club choose to take it. We’ll either have Dunn as our primary backup, or if we think there’s a better option available as a rookie, like Walker etc, then we can take them. Madgen is completely irrelevant to the conversation simply because he is cat B, outside the primary list, and therefore has no actual bearing on who we take as a DFA or Rookie or whatever. De-listing him doesn’t magically make way for a senior or cat A player to be recruited, it just opens up another spot for a speculative project player and we’re back to square one. It’s a dumb thing to bitch about, period, but you keep arguing about it and giving thumbs downs because it’s not want you want to hear, champ.

 

[whiskeytown]

But you're still missing the point. Someone on the senior list would have to make way for a DFA, they wouldn't be pushing Madgen out. Madgen would still be on the list.

DFAs can be offered a 1 year deal and be on the senior list. And they can be taken in the rookie draft. Would you rather Broomhead as a rookie or Josh Walker? Of the two who is going to provide the greatest need once Moore pings a hammy again?

 

[Apex36]

DFAs can be offered a 1 year deal and be on the senior list. And they can be taken in the rookie draft. Would you rather Broomhead as a rookie or Josh Walker? Of the two who is going to provide the greatest need once Moore pings a hammy again?

Now you’re getting it. This has absolutely nothing to do with Madgen, and everything to do with the senior and rookie players we’ve retained. Leave Madgen out of it and your point actually becomes valid.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Yes, yes I have.

Many times.

Nothing wrong with any of those appointments, with the arguable exception of Reid.

Reid like many others will create cap and list spots when we really need it in 2020.
Broomhead is only taking up a rookie spot and after a sever e leg break he gets one last chance. With an injury interrupted preseason its a really good opportunity for him to cement his place. Lynch has been promoted and Murray delisted, so theres at least two spots available for fresh blood. I wouldnt use either of those spots on Dunn though.
Madgen has been serviceable when he has played for us. He'll never be pretty to watch but as a Cat B rookie player its a free swing to see how he advances next year
Wills was great for Collingwood this year and was a key factor in our return to good form late in the season with his crash and bash in the clearances. Defiinitely deserves a years extension.

 

[whiskeytown]

No, I got your point, I just think it’s dumb. Considering that we have Dunn potentially coming back on to the rookie list, that means there’s still a free spot for a KPD should the club choose to take it. We’ll either have Dunn as our primary backup, or if we think there’s a better option available as a rookie, like Walker etc, then we can take them. Madgen is completely irrelevant to the conversation simply because he is cat B, outside the primary list, and therefore has no actual bearing on who we take as a DFA or Rookie or whatever. De-listing him doesn’t magically make way for a senior or cat A player to be recruited, it just opens up another spot for a speculative project player and we’re back to square one. It’s a dumb thing to bitch about, period, but you keep arguing about it and giving thumbs downs because it’s not want you want to hear, champ.

I give you thumbs down because of your attitude.... not your differing opinion.

Magden is not irrelevant because he's ability is not AFL standard and therefore his retention on a 1 year deal yesterday is entirely relevant to the thread we are in.

Putting faith in Dunn coming back or not is what's speculative.

There are better choices out there in the here and now than retaining Magden, and waiting months hoping that Dunn doesn't break down over preseason before rookie him.

What's the likelihood that the Walker's, Hartley's, Roberts, etc will still be unsigned by Feb?

 

[whiskeytown]

Now you’re getting it. This has absolutely nothing to do with Madgen, and everything to do with the senior and rookie players we’ve retained. Leave Madgen out of it and your point actually becomes valid.

If the ability of Cat Bs is irrelevant.... why didn't we keep Ben Richmond on the list for the full allowed time?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I give you thumbs down because of your attitude.... not your differing opinion.

Magden is not irrelevant because he's ability is not AFL standard and therefore his retention on a 1 year deal yesterday is entirely relevant to the thread we are in.

Putting faith in Dunn coming back or not is what's speculative.

There are better choices out there in the here and now than retaining Magden, and waiting months hoping that Dunn doesn't break down over preseason before rookie him.

What's the likelihood that the Walker's, Hartley's, Roberts, etc will still be unsigned by Feb?

Only one of these people you mention is eligible to be placed on a Cat B rookie list. So Madgen is COMPLETELY irrelevant to whatever whinge youre trying to make.

Ironic you mention Hartley though. Hes an example of somebody perhaps the club should have given another year to when he was a Collingwood rookie.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

If the ability of Cat Bs is irrelevant.... why didn't we keep Ben Richmond on the list for the full allowed time?

Because unlike Madgen the club determined he was never going to make it. Madgen has done enough for the club to continue the faith. He costs nothing and doesnt take a list spot from anybody else.

 

[whiskeytown]

Only one of these people you mention is eligible to be placed on a Cat B rookie list. So Madgen is COMPLETELY irrelevant to whatever whinge youre trying to make.

Ironic you mention Hartley though. Hes an example of somebody perhaps the club should have given another year to when he was a Collingwood rookie.

But they are talking of putting Dunn back on the rookie list. So clearly the rookie list spot is there for a Walker, Hartley or Roberts

Try keeping up yourself dodo

 

[barrackers]

Agreed. Sort of.

The issue isn’t Madgen in isolation. It’s Madgen combined with Keane, Tohill, Wilson and Kelly.

I think we’ve had to retain Madgen and Reid because the 4 I mentioned above are too raw, probably add Cameron to this list also. It means we’ve had to retain both Reid and Madgen as more mature bodies as the age and development profile of our talls is out of whack!

A Josh Walker type would be handy but it’d have to be at the expense of players like Reid, Scharenberg or Keane on our list and not Madgen.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Tohill, Wilson and Kelly have all played forward to date, so aren't in direct competition with Madgen or Walker. Their development stage has likely contributed to Reid getting another year and Cameron being recruited, but I wouldn't say the same about Madgen. I believe Madgen has been retained based on his own form and development since recruitment and the potential for further development. He looked a lot better in his AFL games this year when not exposed on the likes of Franklin. That he's a a category b rookie and outside the main list also helps.

I haven't seen enough of Walker to comment on his footy ability, however we have ample depth when it comes to key defenders - Roughead, Moore, Scharenberg, Langdon and if he gets back on the list Dunn have all played well at full back or centre half back at AFL level, albeit Langdon briefly at the back of 2018. Madgen I've left out of this group as like Howe his best footy is more in the third tall role.

While Keane still has development left I disagree that he's still too raw. His form in 2019 seen him close to a debut and from memory he was named an emergency once or twice late in the year. Coupled with his aggression and size if that forms transfers into 2020 a debut is very likely albeit there's a few ahead of him. Keane's bandwagon is growing amongst VFL watchers, but if he does debut in 2020 he'll surprise a few.

 

[barrackers]

But they are talking of putting Dunn back on the rookie list. So clearly the rookie list spot is there for a Walker, Hartley or Roberts

Try keeping up yourself dodo

We have a heap of form when it comes to retaining our former senior listed players on the rookie list and I think the main difference is Dunn is an existing Colllingwood player and a leader at the club. Given our reasonably strong key defensive depth if that wasn't the case I don't think we'd be looking to rookie a defender.

 

[barrackers]

Only one of these people you mention is eligible to be placed on a Cat B rookie list. So Madgen is COMPLETELY irrelevant to whatever whinge youre trying to make.

Ironic you mention Hartley though. Hes an example of somebody perhaps the club should have given another year to when he was a Collingwood rookie.

Hartley has admitted attitude along with injury was an issue during his stint at Collingwood. With a better attitude he may well have gotten that extra year.

 

[legendstatus]

Just watch Moneyball again, forget how good this movie was and makes me think what we or more to the point Hawks are building ?

Frost, Patton & now likely Hartley all recruited, when you think about it, probably what we currently lack? Those 3 with our mix could potentially change our landscape.

The Grundy, Moore & JDG situation next year plays right into it.

Lose all 3 and what can we potentially get v what we lose?

All good to almost great players but can they win us the big one?

Grundy had a record Prelim game with 30 hit outs in the last yet we lost clearances, we all know how that ended.

The other two can’t get on the park

So do we get 3-5 first rounders for all 3 and look at a Moneyball type senario?

Red Sox offered Beane a shitload of money but rejected it, 2 years later the Red Sox, one of the biggest clubs in the MBL, won the WS using the Moneyball plan.

Reckon there is more to it but hey, could just be me coming off watching the movie

Just a thought


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[whiskeytown]

Just watch Moneyball again, forget how good this movie was and makes me think what we or more to the point Hawks are building ?

Frost, Patton & now likely Hartley all recruited, when you think about it, probably what we currently lack? Those 3 with our mix could potentially change our landscape.

The Grundy, Moore & JDG situation next year plays right into it.

Lose all 3 and what can we potentially get v what we lose?

All good to almost great players but can they win us the big one?

Grundy had a record Prelim game with 30 hit outs in the last yet we lost clearances, we all know how that ended.

The other two can’t get on the park

So do we get 3-5 first rounders for all 3 and look at a Moneyball type senario?

Red Sox offered Beane a shitload of money but rejected it, 2 years later the Red Sox, one of the biggest clubs in the MBL, won the WS using the Moneyball plan.

Reckon there is more to it but hey, could just be me coming off watching the movie

Just a thought


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

The Hawks are all over it... and have been for some time...they take cheap, out of favour, mature players who can immediately play a role.

We've also done this with Dunn, Rougheads, etc... but for mine, after the relative success of Cox we currently place too much faith in Cat B rookies making the grade.

 

[Apex36]

I give you thumbs down because of your attitude.... not your differing opinion.

If someone says something ridiculous I’ll call a spade a spade. Sorry if you can’t handle that.

Magden is not irrelevant because he's ability is not AFL standard and therefore his retention on a 1 year deal yesterday is entirely relevant to the thread we are in.

It’s irrelevant to the argument you’re making in regards to picking up DFA’s. You’re shifting the goal posts now.

Putting faith in Dunn coming back or not is what's speculative.

Maybe, but not really much more speculative than recruiting players who were deemed not good enough by their former clubs.

There are better choices out there in the here and now than retaining Magden, and waiting months hoping that Dunn doesn't break down over preseason before rookie him.

If you know of a better player who we can place on the cat B list than Madgen then I’d love to hear it. Unless you think that having an empty cat B space is better than having a cap free depth player?

What's the likelihood that the Walker's, Hartley's, Roberts, etc will still be unsigned by Feb?

Who knows, but stranger things have happened than delisted players not being snatched up in the preseason. They’re players who weren’t good enough at their former clubs, it’s not like we should be clearing the decks to make way for them when we have at least 5 or 6 developing KP types in the VFL who we’d have to fit them in alongside.

If the ability of Cat Bs is irrelevant.... why didn't we keep Ben Richmond on the list for the full allowed time?

Who said the ability of Cat B’s is irrelevant? I said Madgen is irrelevant to the conversation in regards to bringing in a DFA.
As for Richmond, are you really going to compare the two, Richmond was garbage even at VFL level. Madgen has become one of the consistently better performers in the VFL and has actually done relatively well at senior level when not forced to play key position. What’s the point of putting two years development in to a player who can come in and perform as depth if required, only to cut him with no better option to replace him on the cat B list with? It seems like the issue you have here is less about our KPD depth and more that you flat out just don’t like Madgen.

 

[Apex36]

Tohill, Wilson and Kelly have all played forward to date, so aren't in direct competition with Madgen or Walker. Their development stage has likely contributed to Reid getting another year and Cameron being recruited, but I wouldn't say the same about Madgen. I believe Madgen has been retained based on his own form and development since recruitment and the potential for further development. He looked a lot better in his AFL games this year when not exposed on the likes of Franklin. That he's a a category b rookie and outside the main list also helps.

I haven't seen enough of Walker to comment on his footy ability, however we have ample depth when it comes to key defenders - Roughead, Moore, Scharenberg, Langdon and if he gets back on the list Dunn have all played well at full back or centre half back at AFL level, albeit Langdon briefly at the back of 2018. Madgen I've left out of this group as like Howe his best footy is more in the third tall role.

While Keane still has development left I disagree that he's still too raw. His form in 2019 seen him close to a debut and from memory he was named an emergency once or twice late in the year. Coupled with his aggression and size if that forms transfers into 2020 a debut is very likely albeit there's a few ahead of him. Keane's bandwagon is growing amongst VFL watchers, but if he does debut in 2020 he'll surprise a few.

Eddie said on MMM yesterday morning that Kelly was going to be developed as a defender. I can only assume that he was played forward this year because he wasn’t big enough to compete with bigger bodied senior VFL forwards.

 

[Finnishpie]

Have you ever read anything more underwhelming than Broomhead, Madge & Wills signing on for 2020?


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

I’m actually totally cool with them - happy even. We’ve got big signings to do next year and they all deserve another year - since none were traded or asked to be traded.

 

[Finnishpie]

Many times.

Nothing wrong with any of those appointments, with the arguable exception of Reid.

Reid like many others will create cap and list spots when we really need it in 2020.
Broomhead is only taking up a rookie spot and after a sever e leg break he gets one last chance. With an injury interrupted preseason its a really good opportunity for him to cement his place. Lynch has been promoted and Murray delisted, so theres at least two spots available for fresh blood. I wouldnt use either of those spots on Dunn though.
Madgen has been serviceable when he has played for us. He'll never be pretty to watch but as a Cat B rookie player its a free swing to see how he advances next year
Wills was great for Collingwood this year and was a key factor in our return to good form late in the season with his crash and bash in the clearances. Defiinitely deserves a years extension.

This. Though I thought Reid did enough this year to justify a place, given we’re taking a final crack with this group (retaining other older players like Varcoe, etc..)

 

[barrackers]

Eddie said on MMM yesterday morning that Kelly was going to be developed as a defender. I can only assume that he was played forward this year because he wasn’t big enough to compete with bigger bodied senior VFL forwards.

Interesting. Thought Kelly moved well as a forward and it’s an area where with have less depth, so I hope we don’t completely ignore that. Developing versatility in his game would be smart.

 

[Apex36]

Interesting. Thought Kelly moved well as a forward and it’s an area where with have less depth, so I hope we don’t completely ignore that. Developing versatility in his game would be smart.

Versatility is good, but given he was a far superior defender as a junior (went from a late/rookie prospect playing forward to a second rounder as a defender) I’d hope that they let him play to his strengths in his best position rather than trying to mould him in to something he’s not. He’s not in the same mould as Moore or Ben King, who showed that they could be elite at both ends as juniors.