List Mgmt. 2019 List Changes, Contract Status, Draft Picks Etc

TradeDraft

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Versatility is good, but given he was a far superior defender as a junior (went from a late/rookie prospect playing forward to a second rounder as a defender) I’d hope that they let him play to his strengths in his best position rather than trying to mould him in to something he’s not. He’s not in the same mould as Moore or Ben King, who showed that they could be elite at both ends as juniors.
Then with Kelly Down back Moore can go back Forward
 

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Timmy from Thomastown

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Just watch Moneyball again, forget how good this movie was and makes me think what we or more to the point Hawks are building ?

Frost, Patton & now likely Hartley all recruited, when you think about it, probably what we currently lack? Those 3 with our mix could potentially change our landscape.

The Grundy, Moore & JDG situation next year plays right into it.

Lose all 3 and what can we potentially get v what we lose?

All good to almost great players but can they win us the big one?

Grundy had a record Prelim game with 30 hit outs in the last yet we lost clearances, we all know how that ended.

The other two can’t get on the park

So do we get 3-5 first rounders for all 3 and look at a Moneyball type senario?

Red Sox offered Beane a shitload of money but rejected it, 2 years later the Red Sox, one of the biggest clubs in the MBL, won the WS using the Moneyball plan.

Reckon there is more to it but hey, could just be me coming off watching the movie

Just a thought


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I missed the end of that movie. Did the A's win the World Series?
 

Timmy from Thomastown

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But they are talking of putting Dunn back on the rookie list. So clearly the rookie list spot is there for a Walker, Hartley or Roberts

Try keeping up yourself dodo
Personally I'd be making the hard call on Dunn and leaving that rookie spot to an 18 year old, not a recycled player of limited use to us. With or without Dunn we have plenty of defenders.
 

Finnishpie

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Personally I'd be making the hard call on Dunn and leaving that rookie spot to an 18 year old, not a recycled player of limited use to us. With or without Dunn we have plenty of defenders.
I reckon we're going all out with the list we have next year. So Dunn gets the nod over an 18 year old because he can play a role. But at the end of next year it'll be a re-jig/re-craft whatever silly term they're using for minor rebuild. We'll see a whole bunch leaving I think: Dunn, Reid, Varcoe, etc, plus a whole lot of fringe players.
 

Quicky

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Firstly, thanks for a respectful reply and not a smarmy one.

Nowadays a KPF only.... Reid wouldn't make way for a KPD DFA. Not unless that KPD could effectively swing forward.

Magden is not going to significantly improve from another 12 months in the system. He is not and will never be an AFL grade fullback.

Better served as a Goldsack like general defender but lacks speed and the leap and spoil ability of Goldsack. From what I've seen Keane is already at leaping and spoiling.

Magdens only strengths are between his ears... his character and nous. He'd make a fine VFL captain
I can't agree with your assessment of Madgen's ability. He's no world beater but he can definitely be a role player as a key defender. He has leadership and doesn't take a backwards step. His speed is underrated both defensively and offensively. And given he is essentially free as he doesn't contribute to our salary cap that makes him a pretty useful depth player to me. If not Reid a chosen DFA (whether Walker, Hartley or whoever) could still replace a retired Goldsack or delisted Dunn on the list.
 
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Quicky

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Agreed. Sort of.

The issue isn’t Madgen in isolation. It’s Madgen combined with Keane, Tohill, Wilson and Kelly.

I think we’ve had to retain Madgen and Reid because the 4 I mentioned above are too raw, probably add Cameron to this list also. It means we’ve had to retain both Reid and Madgen as more mature bodies as the age and development profile of our talls is out of whack!

A Josh Walker type would be handy but it’d have to be at the expense of players like Reid, Scharenberg or Keane on our list and not Madgen.


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I reckon we have too many speculative developing key position players on our list so I agree with you there. The balance is skew-whiff.
 

Timmy from Thomastown

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I reckon we're going all out with the list we have next year. So Dunn gets the nod over an 18 year old because he can play a role. But at the end of next year it'll be a re-jig/re-craft whatever silly term they're using for minor rebuild. We'll see a whole bunch leaving I think: Dunn, Reid, Varcoe, etc, plus a whole lot of fringe players.
Yeah I definitely think we are doing that, saving our biikkies, not commiting long term to anybody who isnt in our long term plans, and giving maximum flexibility for next year to retain and recruit. But I think retaining Dunn is a step too far. But hes being rewarded for being a great clubman and an excellent player before his injuries, so I understand their decision (should they make it).
 

whiskeytown

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I can't agree with your assessment of Madgen's ability. He's no world beater but he can definitely be a role player as a key defender. He has leadership and doesn't take a backwards step. His speed is underrated both defensively and offensively. And given he is essentially free as he doesn't contribute to our salary cap that makes him a pretty useful depth player to me. If not Reid a chosen DFA (whether Walker, Hartley or whoever) could still replace a retired Goldsack or delisted Dunn on the list.
Agree to disagree on Madgen - I'd put money on them canning him once he has to be elevated beyond Cat B list.

For mine Magden on the list still decreases the likelihood they go an additional DFA KPD between now and 2020. If Magden wasn't retained, I think they'd certainly bring in the additional mature age KPD.

So for mine it's a Magden vs Walker/Hartley/Roberts etc equation. But I get that others will disagree with that assessment.
 

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Quicky

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Agree to disagree on Madgen - I'd put money on them canning him once he has to be elevated beyond Cat B list.

For mine Magden on the list still decreases the likelihood they go an additional DFA KPD between now and 2020. If Magden wasn't retained, I think they'd certainly bring in the additional mature age KPD.

So for mine it's a Magden vs Walker/Hartley/Roberts etc equation. But I get that others will disagree with that assessment.
It's not just Madgen vs Walker/Hartley etc. Its Madgen vs Walker minus ~300k in cap space, or whatever the DFA's contract ends up being. That makes a lot of difference given the contracts we need to negotiate in 2020.
 

Obese Arachnid

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Agree to disagree on Madgen - I'd put money on them canning him once he has to be elevated beyond Cat B list.

For mine Magden on the list still decreases the likelihood they go an additional DFA KPD between now and 2020. If Magden wasn't retained, I think they'd certainly bring in the additional mature age KPD.

So for mine it's a Magden vs Walker/Hartley/Roberts etc equation. But I get that others will disagree with that assessment.
But Madgen isn't a KPD!
 

Finnishpie

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Yeah I definitely think we are doing that, saving our biikkies, not commiting long term to anybody who isnt in our long term plans, and giving maximum flexibility for next year to retain and recruit. But I think retaining Dunn is a step too far. But hes being rewarded for being a great clubman and an excellent player before his injuries, so I understand their decision (should they make it).
I’m guessing if he’s in great form it gives us flexibility to move Moore forward. I don’t think otherwise we’ve got the forward line to trouble the best teams.
 

well left

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Tohill, Wilson and Kelly have all played forward to date, so aren't in direct competition with Madgen or Walker. Their development stage has likely contributed to Reid getting another year and Cameron being recruited, but I wouldn't say the same about Madgen. I believe Madgen has been retained based on his own form and development since recruitment and the potential for further development. He looked a lot better in his AFL games this year when not exposed on the likes of Franklin. That he's a a category b rookie and outside the main list also helps.

I haven't seen enough of Walker to comment on his footy ability, however we have ample depth when it comes to key defenders - Roughead, Moore, Scharenberg, Langdon and if he gets back on the list Dunn have all played well at full back or centre half back at AFL level, albeit Langdon briefly at the back of 2018. Madgen I've left out of this group as like Howe his best footy is more in the third tall role.

While Keane still has development left I disagree that he's still too raw. His form in 2019 seen him close to a debut and from memory he was named an emergency once or twice late in the year. Coupled with his aggression and size if that forms transfers into 2020 a debut is very likely albeit there's a few ahead of him. Keane's bandwagon is growing amongst VFL watchers, but if he does debut in 2020 he'll surprise a few.
I think the spot for Walker if we were to go that way would be the spot we’re thinking of for Dunn and we’re backing Dunn in.

Madgen was better this year than last but my point is we’re sticking with him, and Dunn, for another year as back up as we don’t want to much pressure on Kelly and Keane to have to step in.

I agree with you on Keane though. What I saw this year was impressive and if he continues to develop than he’d be more than ready. Given his aggression I’d also like to see how he went forward in the VFL.

Given that, Madgen as a Cat B and the ability of others like Howe, Scharenberg and Langdon to play taller I’d actually prefer we pass on Dunn and take a punt on a kid that wasn’t a KPD.


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sr36

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Yeah I definitely think we are doing that, saving our biikkies, not commiting long term to anybody who isnt in our long term plans, and giving maximum flexibility for next year to retain and recruit. But I think retaining Dunn is a step too far. But hes being rewarded for being a great clubman and an excellent player before his injuries, so I understand their decision (should they make it).
I think there's zero chance we'll take Dunn in the rookie draft. If we're considering retaining him, leave a spot vacant and give him until the end of supplemental signings to get fit and make a call and if he isn't ready then, we'll probably be able to add him anyway at midseason draft if we really want or need him for next year.
 

whiskeytown

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It's not just Madgen vs Walker/Hartley etc. Its Madgen vs Walker minus ~300k in cap space, or whatever the DFA's contract ends up being. That makes a lot of difference given the contracts we need to negotiate in 2020.
A DFA won't be on 300k, just minimum chips. And if they have a potential spot there open for Dunn then there is some salary cap room
 

barrackers

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Not one less rookie when there is a spot being kept open MAYBE for Dunn
Either your maths is different to mine or you've confused the player (Madgen) I was referencing. Had we gone for an alternative defensive option and delisted Madgen the replacement wouldn't be a category b rookie therefore we'd have one less player (draftee or rookie).
 

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