Analysis 2019 List Management Discussion II

Blue__Balls

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 22, 2014
7,910
23,100
AFL Club
Carlton
If Gray is going to Sydney as reported in that DFA article on afl.com.au... I wonder if we would go down the Menzel path.

I know the last Menzel we had didn't end up well, but if Dan is fit... could we?! Is he worth the 1 year contract? I suppose he could bond with Doc at least...
Under Bolton I've have said "no chance" - Teague though...he might be able to find a role for an attacking forward with no defensive game.

I'd see if Menzel wanted to join the NB's for the preseason, ala Alex Johnson. Potential for a call-up in the SSP if he works hard and integrates well.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

james Dean

Norm Smith Medallist
Dec 18, 2006
6,257
8,175
Otherside of the Tracks
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
PHX, NUFC, Pats
If Gray is going to Sydney as reported in that DFA article on afl.com.au... I wonder if we would go down the Menzel path.

I know the last Menzel we had didn't end up well, but if Dan is fit... could we?! Is he worth the 1 year contract? I suppose he could bond with Doc at least...
Sadly his knee is absolutely buggered. He can barely train, let alone play.
 

FRUMPY

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 18, 2006
11,736
11,388
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Under Bolton I've have said "no chance" - Teague though...he might be able to find a role for an attacking forward with no defensive game.

I'd see if Menzel wanted to join the NB's for the preseason, ala Alex Johnson. Potential for a call-up in the SSP if he works hard and integrates well.
Definitely should be using the Northern Blues as a look and see for potential mid season draft picks
 

Jimmae

Brownlow Medallist
Nov 4, 2003
14,244
20,381
Earth, near Carlton.
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Tennessee Titans, Tottenham Hotspur
Our List Manager literally said 2 weeks ago, and strongly, when directly asked if we saw TDK as more a forward or a ruck that we see TDK as a developing ruckman and that we are very happy with him.
I've already covered my opinion on Agresta.

Agresta has a nasty habit?
Don't you think it may be you that has the 'nasty habit' of being affected, rather than Agresta.
Imagine getting offended by a largely benign turn of phrase that has been used in exaggerated fashion for more than a century...

Upon my viewing I can see why we'd want TDK as a ruckman first.
Good leap, competitive in the air and and very competitive on the ground thereafter.
Mobile around the ground and has the smarts to get to the right spots, unlike Phillips.

Of course he has work to do but wouldn't that be the case with most young ruck-men.
We don't need another 18-20 year old and we didn't really address immediate ruck needs via this trade period, but it also made sense not to given there wasn't anything 'special' around. That may change as soon as next year though.
Jim, the kid is 203cm and won't turn 21 until mid way through next year.

He has been on the list for two years now and has missed a fair chunk of footy through injury. Not sure he'd have even featured in 25 games over the two seasons.

Given for most of that time he's had to compete with both Lobbe and Phillips for time in the ruck, it shouldn't be overly surprising that (a) he hasn't spent a heap of time in the ruck, or (b) that he hasn't stood out in that position.

So yeah, given the circumstances I'd absolutely say he has been held back from the position to this point in his career.

With one less ruck on the list in 2020 - at least, one less experienced ruck - hopefully that will change in 2020. Expect to see him spend a fair bit more time in the ruck next year.
He's had opportunities to be the lead ruck, and he got thrashed. Where he excelled was once the ball was on the ground, and playing in key forward role. He's the classic case of a kid being picked for ruck roles as a junior because he's tall and can jump.

I can't believe we've gone full circle since Ratten tried to turn Hampson into a forward...

He will predominantly play as a ruckman
Then he might well be the next Gorringe.
 
Last edited:

HARKER

Hall of Famer
Oct 15, 2008
49,981
71,838
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Imagine getting offended by a largely benign turn of phrase that has been used in exaggerated fashion for more than a century...
I don't get offended for the 'show' of being offended.
You don't like Agresta because.........don't even know why? Is it the way he speaks to the media or for the job he's doing?

I agree that Agresta doesn't exude the confidence nor manner of his colleague, but it's hard to nail on him for his output to date.

EDIT: Anyway, if you haven't heard it before TDK is being groomed as a ruck-man, first and foremost.
 
Last edited:

KohPhi

Brownlow Medallist
Jul 24, 2015
17,533
55,217
AFL Club
Carlton
I haven't seen a single match played by TDK that has left me saying "that's a full time ruck."

Literally not a single game, not even a single quarter. Do people really believe that he was being held back from the position that much?
There is a tendency from many supporters (all clubs mind you) to see potential/hope in a player and attach a label.
Now TDK does show great potential, and I'd like to believe with hard work, natural progression and an opportunity, he will become a first choice ruck. But I agree that in my opinion, i haven't seen it yet.

There is a name attached to this phenomenon, I think it's called the 'Asaike Conundrum'..😆
 

Jeremias

Moderator
Sep 26, 2004
35,914
30,757
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
MUFC, LAL, PSG
He's had opportunities to be the lead ruck, and he got thrashed. Where he excelled was once the ball was on the ground, and playing in key forward role. He's the classic case of a kid being picked for ruck roles as a junior because he's tall and can jump.
He was thrashed as an 18/19/20 year old in his first few games of footy at VFL level? When he was likely coming up against opponents far bigger and more experienced than he was?

Oh no! :eek:

WHO GIVES A fu**!?

The kid is 20 years old, has been stuck behind far more mature ruck options, and has battled injuries over his first 2 years at senior level. How about we give the kid a chance to have a proper run at it before we focus on the minutiae to try and discredit and put a line through him?
 

La Dispute

La Dispute
Jul 14, 2005
10,326
12,111
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Manchester City, Boston Bruins
There is a big difference between the club idealising TDK as a number one ruck and shoehorning him into that position because of our lack of ruck options.

Sure he was drafted as a ruck/forward, but his ruckwork is still a mile off.

Wonder how we will structure our ruck depth next year to streamline his development, as Pittonet will take a stack of his VFL minutes.

In a perfect world we’d have Kreuz and Pittonet rotating at AFL level, but I doubt we go down this route with Cas as the better ruck/forward option, which consigns to TDK to secondary VFL duties.
 

Blue__Balls

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 22, 2014
7,910
23,100
AFL Club
Carlton
There is a big difference between the club idealising TDK as a number one ruck and shoehorning him into that position because of our lack of ruck options.

Sure he was drafted as a ruck/forward, but his ruckwork is still a mile off.

Wonder how we will structure our ruck depth next year to streamline his development, as Pittonet will take a stack of his VFL minutes.

In a perfect world we’d have Kreuz and Pittonet rotating at AFL level, but I doubt we go down this route with Cas as the better ruck/forward option, which consigns to TDK to secondary VFL duties.
Can't be that detrimental for TDK and Pittonet to split the VFL rucking 50/50. Then when Kreuzer misses games, TDK takes on more of the load with support from Casboult.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Jimmae

Brownlow Medallist
Nov 4, 2003
14,244
20,381
Earth, near Carlton.
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Tennessee Titans, Tottenham Hotspur
Jim I could probably 90% of ruckmen that had similar output to TDK over the last 2 decades, before they started to come on

Start with these guys at 20

Cox, Grundy, Gawn
Cox was promoted to the senior list in his second year after taking East Perth to a flag and being awarded BOG shortly after turning 19. He then spent that year being fast tracked in the senior side via the second ruck role. By halfway through his fourth year, he was lead ruck, having split duties for about a season and a half with one of the premier rucks in the competition: Michael Gardiner.

Grundy played the tail end of his first season (as a 19-year old) as the #1 ruck, including in a final. He split duties a bit due to injury issues in his second year, but he was basically lead ruck when fit.

Gawn was a ******* beanpole with endurance issues, and I have never rated him as highly as others. He still plays light in order to be able to cover ground, but at 105-110 kgs and with 4 inch reach advantage over most rucks, he doesn't get troubled at bounces.

I fail to see how any of these biographies align with your point.

I don't get offended for the 'show' of being offended.
You don't like Agresta because.........don't even know why? Is it the way he speaks to the media or for the job he's doing?

I agree that Agresta doesn't exude the confidence nor manner of his colleague, but it's hard to nail on him for his output to date.

EDIT: Anyway, if you haven't heard it before TDK is being groomed as a ruck-man, first and foremost.
His track record with us, compared to Sydney's decision making process during his time there (and since).

which consigns to TDK to secondary VFL duties.
Exactly.
 

HARKER

Hall of Famer
Oct 15, 2008
49,981
71,838
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
His track record with us, compared to Sydney's decision making process during his time there (and since).
No harm in being unhappy about an individual at the club (any individual) but I haven't seen any move made directly via his means alone, that I can attribute to being particularly poor. Maybe there has been, but it may also be a case of having someone above you wielding all the power.

Never quite got the dual List Manager thing and still really don't.
 

Jimmae

Brownlow Medallist
Nov 4, 2003
14,244
20,381
Earth, near Carlton.
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Tennessee Titans, Tottenham Hotspur
No harm in being unhappy about an individual at the club (any individual) but I haven't seen any move made directly via his means alone, that I can attribute to being particularly poor. Maybe there has been, but it may also be a case of having someone above you wielding all the power.

Never quite got the dual List Manager thing and still really don't.
That's how poor decision makers stay in this caper for so long: they either shift blame, or sidestep mediocre decision making by not taking enough ownership.
 

HARKER

Hall of Famer
Oct 15, 2008
49,981
71,838
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
That's how poor decision makers stay in this caper for so long: they either shift blame, or sidestep mediocre decision making by not taking enough ownership.
That's correct and why accountability has to be clear but from the outside our List Management/Recruitment model seems prone to being murky.

I don't like the idea of Silvagni having the final say on everything, as has been suggested here a few times.
I'm sure there's plenty of dialogue between Silvagni, Brodie and Agresta but if individuals aren't allowed to extend themselves within their full scope of duties, clashes and issues are likely to come about.

As for Agresta, I find it hard to apportion any direct blame on him for anything. I'm not sure how anyone on this side of the fence can.
 

Jimmae

Brownlow Medallist
Nov 4, 2003
14,244
20,381
Earth, near Carlton.
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Tennessee Titans, Tottenham Hotspur
That's correct and why accountability has to be clear but from the outside our List Management/Recruitment model seems prone to being murky.

I don't like the idea of Silvagni having the final say on everything, as has been suggested here a few times.
I'm sure there's plenty of dialogue between Brodie and Agresta but if individuals aren't allowed to extend themselves within their full scope of duties, clashes and issues are likely to come about.

As for Agresta, I find it hard to apportion any direct blame on him for anything. I'm not sure how anyone on this side of the fence can.
Silvagni has the final say in the player based on recommendations of talent from Agresta and his team, with consideration from the list management team as to evaluating their monetary worth versus their asking prices, after being directed on what type of positional player by the coaching panel. His job is to marry all of that together, in what might be considered the bulk of a general manager role in other sports.

When SOS picks a name, it's from an Agresta shortlist. Look no further than some of our recent mature rookie/FA/pre-season targets: Papley, Newman, Cottrell, Deluca, Newnes, Goddard and Gibbons. I'm not saying all of them are bad, but they are very distinctly Sydney-esque role players.

At least the quality level is going up, I suppose.
 

La Dispute

La Dispute
Jul 14, 2005
10,326
12,111
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Manchester City, Boston Bruins
Can't be that detrimental for TDK and Pittonet to split the VFL rucking 50/50. Then when Kreuzer misses games, TDK takes on more of the load with support from Casboult.
Given he is probably behind in his development purely from a ruck perspective that’s not an ideal ratio. Factoring in time on the bench while he’s still building his fitness that’s 40-50 minutes per game as first ruck at VFL level.

I’m bullish on the bloke, and think he’ll eventually be a great 2nd/forward, but he’s a fair way off at this stage. Coming into his third season, he’s not going to get the exposure he needs, and waiting for Kreuzer to break down doesn’t solve the issue.

It’s going to be interesting to see how they manage the ruck situation, provided all ruckman are fit.
 

The Bighouse

Premiership Player
Jun 28, 2009
4,630
4,877
Perth
AFL Club
Carlton
With the addition of Newnes to the Snr list today, our list currently stands at :-


35 Senior players
3 Category A Rookies
0 Category A International Rookie
1 Category B International Rookie
0 Category B Rookies
36 when J.Martin arrives.
4 at the draft, 1 as a rookie unless the SSP is utilised for a pre-selection assessment (not against the trial scenario).

Hoping we don’t go down the path of keeping a spot open for the mid-season draft - if we have an injury or retirement so be it but not at the expense of being short a list number (& development) until late May.
 

Yoda_

Brownlow Medallist
May 6, 2007
26,223
12,340
South East Suburbs
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Tottenham Hotspurs, Melbourne Vixen
Sorry to intrude guys but what’s the go with Pat Kerr and reasons for his delisting?

Understandable you have a plethora of KPF he needs to surpass but his stats on paper and the couple of live games I caught him in he seemed to go ok.

What’s the deal? We’ve been linked to Richmond’s Callum Moore as a DFA but I’d take Kerr over Moore from a stars p.o.v.

Cheers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Doro

Collective Narcissism Support Group
Sep 22, 2011
3,297
4,999
62 West Wallaby St.
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Wensleydale Wanderers
Sorry to intrude guys but what’s the go with Pat Kerr and reasons for his delisting?

Understandable you have a plethora of KPF he needs to surpass but his stats on paper and the couple of live games I caught him in he seemed to go ok.

What’s the deal? We’ve been linked to Richmond’s Callum Moore as a DFA but I’d take Kerr over Moore from a stars p.o.v.

Cheers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kerr was a bit stiff as he has ability. Bit too one dimensional, straight line sort of a player which left him struggling to find a spot in our fwd line. Think he's good enough to grab a spot somewhere though.
 

Jimmae

Brownlow Medallist
Nov 4, 2003
14,244
20,381
Earth, near Carlton.
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Tennessee Titans, Tottenham Hotspur
36 when J.Martin arrives.
4 at the draft, 1 as a rookie unless the SSP is utilised for a pre-selection assessment (not against the trial scenario).

Hoping we don’t go down the path of keeping a spot open for the mid-season draft - if we have an injury or retirement so be it but not at the expense of being short a list number (& development) until late May.
The SSP is after the rookie draft.
 

Eiffel 65

Club Legend
Sep 18, 2018
2,036
4,841
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Gryffindor
If Gray is going to Sydney as reported in that DFA article on afl.com.au... I wonder if we would go down the Menzel path.

I know the last Menzel we had didn't end up well, but if Dan is fit... could we?! Is he worth the 1 year contract? I suppose he could bond with Doc at least...
I'd probably rather us back in Matt Owies at this stage.

Thought he was stiff not to get an opportunity in the back end of the season. Showed a lot.

He's one that I think will surprise in 2020.

Heard a lot of talk about us needing a small forward, but not much about his development and potential to fill that role for us next year.
 

Top Bottom