Analysis 2019 List Management Discussion II

[bluebunz]

Just bumped into an old acquaintance who happens to play VFL.

Among things discussed, I asked him about Lukas Webb.

He said Webb is an elite talent, and would be a very smart pickup for Carlton.

Way too good to playing VFL. Easily in our top 22.

 

[Bostonian]

Pittonet, Newnes, Martin front-ended, Webb as a rookie, all at the cost of sliding in the fourth round.

Genius.

Just because we got then for little doesn't mean it's a genius move. They have to actually be very good players for that to be true.

 

[agro]

Just because we got then for little doesn't mean it's a genius move. They have to actually be very good players for that to be true.

Phillips, Lamb, Sumner, Plowman refers - reasonable move not genius.

 

[Kruezing]

What’s the story with Murray ? Has he been picked up ? Or has his off field stuff hindered any return ?

 

[Blue__Balls]

What’s the story with Murray ? Has he been picked up ? Or has his off field stuff hindered any return ?

Melbourne keen, by the sounds of it, so expect to see him land there in the PSD. No need to go early, they can wait and see how the draft unfolds first before deciding if they take him.

 

[Wickzki]

Just because we got then for little doesn't mean it's a genius move. They have to actually be very good players for that to be true.

Jack Martin is comfortably best 22.

Lukas Webb and Jack Newnes are likely 16-22 ranked players on an AFL list.

Marc Pittonet has far more upside than Phillips.

If you're getting 4 players who you believe to be of AFL quality for sliding down a few spots in the 4th round that is a genius move.

 

[Bostonian]

Jack Martin is comfortably best 22.

Lukas Webb and Jack Newnes are likely 16-22 ranked players on an AFL list.

Marc Pittonet has far more upside than Phillips.

If you're getting 4 players who you believe to be of AFL quality for sliding down a few spots in the 4th round that is a genius move.

That's all just guess work at this stage.

Not a fan of drawing conclusions before anything has occured.

One could easily say we got a player who finished in the NEAFL, one who ended up getting delisted by his club with little interest from other clubs, one who was a 3rd string ruckman given away for nothing and the last one a sick note who hasn't done anything much at this level.

At this stage that summary of the players is closer to their last known activities in the AFL.

 

[Wickzki]

Phillips, Lamb, Sumner, Plowman refers - reasonable move not genius.

Conveniently forgetting parts of that trade.

The actual trade was:

Pick 28, 77, 95, and Geelong's 2016 1st round pick for pick 8, Plowman, Sumner, Lamb and Phillips.

Our last actual pick in that draft was pick 53 which was used 54 to match Essendon's bid on Jack Silvagni. Therefore, picks 77 and 95 would not have been used (we passed on a potential selection after Silvagni preferring to use the list spot in the rookie draft).

Essentially we took Sumner, Lamb, and Phillips on as free hits. Phillips played 27 games for us (was below average ruck depth), Lamb played 44 games for us over 3 years and played key roles in a few of our victories (including snapping the losing streak against Hawthorn), and Sumner played 20 games for us over his two years. Given they were free swings none of them were fails.

That means we essentially traded the compensation Geelong gave us for Henderson and pick 28 (which bottomed out to being pick 33, Mitch Hibberd was essentially the pick) for pick 8 which bottomed out to pick 10 which SOS used to draft Harry McKay and Lachie Plowman.

If you don't view McKay and Plowman for Lachie Henderson (who really achieved nothing at Geelong and is now delisted) and the pick that was eventually used to draft Mitch Hibberd (delisted last year) as a monumental win for Carlton then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Wickzki]

One could easily say we got a player who finished in the NEAFL, one who ended up getting delisted by his club with little interest from other clubs, one who was a 3rd string ruckman given away for nothing and the last one a sick note who hasn't done anything much at this level.

At this stage that summary of the players is closer to their last known activities in the AFL.

To use the NEAFL argument on Martin demonstrates an absurd level of ignorance. He wasn't in the NEAFL because of form but rather he had told the club that he planned on leaving them at the end of the season.

And for all of their cries that we weren't fair at the trade table and that Martin is a required player they've yet to offer this so called required player a contract.

Nope. Nice try.

That's all just guess work at this stage.

Sure it is. But so is every trade and list management move ever.

It's like saying that Richmond offered a big money contract to a player who had just torn his PCL and only played 10 games. What idiots, right? I mean who would do just a thing? Ignoring the fact that that player was Tom Lynch. Lots of guess work there that he'd be able to recover and help win them a premiership.

An even better example... Jeremy Howe. For years a highlight machine at Melbourne but someone who had forged a reputation as being not a whole lot more. For years they misused him and never knew whether to stick him up forward where his marking prowess could lead him into becoming a reliable goal kicker (18, 19, 28 goals his first three years), in the midfield or down back... Collingwood employing a lot of your so-called "guess work" determine that he could be an outstanding defender for them. He pretty much immediately becomes exactly what they "guessed" he would do.

Guess work? No. There's lots of knowledge and foresight that goes into these moves.

I'm expecting cries of O'Shea and Mullet to come next -- moves that were always deck chair moves which while proving to be disappointing actually served their short-term purpose.

 

[KohPhi]

Just because we got then for little doesn't mean it's a genius move. They have to actually be very good players for that to be true.

Agree. Would be stoked if we can give 2 of them a tick by the time they finish up. Not being negative, just realistic.

 

[Blue__Balls]

To use the NEAFL argument on Martin demonstrates an absurd level of ignorance. He wasn't in the NEAFL because of form but rather he had told the club that he planned on leaving them at the end of the season.

And for all of their cries that we weren't fair at the trade table and that Martin is a required player they've yet to offer this so called required player a contract.

Nope. Nice try.

Two things here Wick.

The "dropped cause he was leaving" thing is, to date, an assumption. It's a reasonable one, but there's also the consideration that he came back from a finger injury, had a very quiet game, and then got dropped. Maybe the club was "punishing him", or maybe they'd decided his output wasn't good enough for what he should be delivering. Guesses.

And, logically, GC must have put an offer on the table to Martin. If they hadn't, he'd have automatically been delisted and would be available as a DFA. Don't know what that contract offer was, maybe it was the same as what he'd had before, maybe it was unders, maybe it was overs to try and convince him to stay? More guesses.

 

[KohPhi]

To use the NEAFL argument on Martin demonstrates an absurd level of ignorance. He wasn't in the NEAFL because of form but rather he had told the club that he planned on leaving them at the end of the season.

And for all of their cries that we weren't fair at the trade table and that Martin is a required player they've yet to offer this so called required player a contract.

Nope. Nice try.



Sure it is. But so is every trade and list management move ever.

It's like saying that Richmond offered a big money contract to a player who had just torn his PCL and only played 10 games. What idiots, right? I mean who would do just a thing? Ignoring the fact that that player was Tom Lynch. Lots of guess work there that he'd be able to recover and help win them a premiership.

An even better example... Jeremy Howe. For years a highlight machine at Melbourne but someone who had forged a reputation as being not a whole lot more. For years they misused him and never knew whether to stick him up forward where his marking prowess could lead him into becoming a reliable goal kicker (18, 19, 28 goals his first three years), in the midfield or down back... Collingwood employing a lot of your so-called "guess work" determine that he could be an outstanding defender for them. He pretty much immediately becomes exactly what they "guessed" he would do.

Guess work? No. There's lots of knowledge and foresight that goes into these moves.

I'm expecting cries of O'Shea and Mullet to come next -- moves that were always deck chair moves which while proving to be disappointing actually served their short-term purpose.

I too wouldn't call it guesswork, more a 'calculated opportunity" .

 

[Jimmae]

Webb is tough, plays off contact well, can kick. The problem is his pace and overall evasiveness, and how often he needlessly winds up having to deal with contact (for his size), hence all the injury issues.

I've also no idea on his endurance levels.

 

[JuddgementDay]

This pre-season we've added a few new players to our list, a few back from injuries too and all of the sudden we look significantly faster across all lines - nice

 

[Wickzki]

Two things here Wick.

The "dropped cause he was leaving" thing is, to date, an assumption. It's a reasonable one, but there's also the consideration that he came back from a finger injury, had a very quiet game, and then got dropped. Maybe the club was "punishing him", or maybe they'd decided his output wasn't good enough for what he should be delivering. Guesses.

According to someone high up at the Southport Sharks (also connected to the Suns) the reason why they dropped him was that "he had lost his passion for playing for the Suns so they put a player in who wanted the opportunity to represent the club."

And, logically, GC must have put an offer on the table to Martin. If they hadn't, he'd have automatically been delisted and would be available as a DFA. Don't know what that contract offer was, maybe it was the same as what he'd had before, maybe it was unders, maybe it was overs to try and convince him to stay? More guesses.

The Suns offer to Jack Martin came about mid-year or earlier (same source) about the time the media was portraying him as being a committed Suns player. That was the narrative issued by the Suns. That's all that a club has to do to satisfy that AFL requirement -- even if the player rejects it flat out.

Frankly, it's a silly rule that essentially means that a club that knows a player is leaving can offer a player an almost laughable contract (say the minimum value of an AFL contract) and that player is not a DFA if they delist themselves. I'm not saying that the Suns offered him such a deal but that's all that it requires to ensure that a player can't become a delisted free agent ("... because they've had a contract offered to them.")

 

[Blue__Balls]

According to someone high up at the Southport Sharks (also connected to the Suns) the reason why they dropped him was that "he had lost his passion for playing for the Suns so they put a player in who wanted the opportunity to represent the club."



The Suns offer to Jack Martin came about mid-year or earlier (same source) about the time the media was portraying him as being a committed Suns player. That was the narrative issued by the Suns. That's all that a club has to do to satisfy that AFL requirement -- even if the player rejects it flat out.

Frankly, it's a silly rule that essentially means that a club that knows a player is leaving can offer a player an almost laughable contract (say the minimum value of an AFL contract) and that player is not a DFA if they delist themselves. I'm not saying that the Suns offered him such a deal but that's all that it requires to ensure that a player can't become a delisted free agent ("... because they've had a contract offered to them.")

Still - there was an offer on the table if he wanted it. And we don't know what that offer was, so it's unfair to claim GC clearly didn't value him. If he hated the place so much he didn't even want to look at the number on the cheque, that's fine, but for all we know GC were happy to pay him a mint if he committed.

 

[Eiffel 65]

Interesting. If we add Jones to our list as well, there's a fair chance we may only take 3 in the ND.

Roos, Blues circling cut Cats pressure forward

Delisted Geelong forward Jamaine Jones could be set for an AFL lifeline after attracting interest from North Melbourne ahead of this month's draft period

www.afl.com.au

 

[RoyalParade]

Interesting. If we add Jones to our list as well, there's a fair chance we may only take 3 in the ND.

Roos, Blues circling cut Cats pressure forward

Delisted Geelong forward Jamaine Jones could be set for an AFL lifeline after attracting interest from North Melbourne ahead of this month's draft period

www.afl.com.au

We will only take 3 in the ND anyway I think.

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

Webb is a cleaner and more durable version of Rhys O’Keefe.

 

[Eiffel 65]

We will only take 3 in the ND anyway I think.

Would make sense because our list demographic would start to become too heavily weighted towards 23 and under players.

 

[rog1995]

What’s the story with Murray ? Has he been picked up ? Or has his off field stuff hindered any return ?

I would love to pick up Murray. Give the guy a second chance and he could be a great pickup.

 

[thylacine60]

Just bumped into an old acquaintance who happens to play VFL.

Among things discussed, I asked him about Lukas Webb.

He said Webb is an elite talent, and would be a very smart pickup for Carlton.

Way too good to playing VFL. Easily in our top 22.

how is soapy?

 

[thylacine60]

Martin's millions: early terms boost Blues bid

Jack Martin will be paid about $2 million over the first two years of his massively front-loaded five-year deal as a result of a deal struck between Martin and his preferred destination club, Carlton.

www.theage.com.au

 

[jezzatigerbrent]

Martin's millions: early terms boost Blues bid

Jack Martin will be paid about $2 million over the first two years of his massively front-loaded five-year deal as a result of a deal struck between Martin and his preferred destination club, Carlton.

www.theage.com.au

wordpress anybody pls? The age won't let me view the website content

 

[Stamos]

wordpress anybody pls? The age won't let me view the website content

Outline.com

outline.com