Analysis 2019 List Management Discussion II

Jeremias

Formerly 'jernoine'
Sep 26, 2004
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I never thought we needed to do a deal Jeremias, I wanted to. As I stated then, I don't think a grudge was going to help anyone - if we could do a deal that helped both clubs, not going to let past events stop it. Appears SOS thought the trade helped Carlton, and I personally agree.

Interested to know if you now think we did them a favor?
I'm pretty sure this was in response to doing the Suns a favour so they delist Martin and let him walk to us as a delisted free agent.

Which we didn't need to do as I was very confident all along that he'd be getting to us anyway.

I have no issue dealing with any club if it is to our benefit, which the trade on draft night was. That it also helped the Suns is fine, but not my primary concern.
 

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Eiffel 65

Club Legend
Sep 18, 2018
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There will be more than 3-4 changes easily, once you factor in possible retirements.

We now have several young players who may not find a position in the main team so easily any more and it wouldn't surprise me at all should a team like Sydney come knocking.

There's likely to be another couple of mature players join us next year, making things even harder for some of the young guys and it may be prudent list management to look for trades with these guys. We will start losing some but we have to be selective in who we're willing to let go and why.
We finished 16th on the ladder. We're not in a position to lose highly rated young talent. Not every 18 or 19 year old gets to develop their craft at the top level. This is something we've become accustomed to because we didn't have much of an option. Now we have greater depth, we have the option of developing our draftees the more traditional way via the VFL.

I still maintain that the abundance of high quality youth is the reason why we won't trade for players from other clubs. Maybe a small forward, but that would be about it.

Our primary goal must be to make sure we have the right systems in place to develop these players.
 

footyfan78

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 27, 2014
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there are no other teams worthy
Don't think so.

I'm confident that Teague and Agresta will want to keep our core group of young players together.

Some of our older guys will eventually retire in the years to come and more spots will open up.

Hopefully a maximum of 3-4 changes.
Yeah, literally 3 changes is what I suspect.
I would feel more confident if SOS was still overseeing all this....
 

Kreuuuzeurns

Premiership Player
Sep 25, 2013
3,759
4,780
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I'm struggling to name 3.
Minimum 3 at the draft and we’d hope to bring in Papley and a midfield FA, Newman/Newnes types will also be continually looked at.

At this very early stage I think any number of Lang, Polson, Finbar, BSOS, Cottrell, Owies, Macreadie, Goddard and Kennedy may depart either delisted or moved on for more opportunity. Not to mention Simpson’s and Eddie’s retirement + any other shock trade requests.

If we are only turning over 3-4 players we’ve done extremely well with our development.
 
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Eiffel 65

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Sep 18, 2018
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Lang, Polson, Finabar, McReadie (?), Goddard (?), Betts (retire ?), Simmo (retire ?), Murphy (retire ?)
Lang: Retain as depth. Can fill a void if required. Every club needs these guys on the list.
Polson: Need to see what he brings to the table this season. Maybe but still too early to tell.
Finbar: Definitely deserves another year. Just look at how he's transforming his body. Way too early to make a call on him. Long term projects need more than 2 years on a list.
Macreadie: Has a lot of potential but has been hit with injuries. Would prefer to give him another year or two to see what he's capable of after gaining some continuity.
Goddard: Honestly believe Goddard could be a very good player if he improves his running. Had a lot of injuries and like Macreadie, just needs some continuity. At worst, he's a leader of our backline in the VFL and can help mentor younger players coming through.
Betts: Probably plays for two years.
Simmo: Yea, I'll give you that one.
Murphy: He's only 32. Could easily play another 2-3 years on the wing. If he's motivated enough to play on, I can't see why not. He's still a very good player. Hope he's around to experience some success right at the end of his career.
 

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Heres Waite

Club Legend
Aug 16, 2009
2,286
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Lang: Retain as depth. Can fill a void if required. Every club needs these guys on the list.
Polson: Need to see what he brings to the table this season. Maybe but still too early to tell.
Finbar: Definitely deserves another year. Just look at how he's transforming his body. Way too early to make a call on him. Long term projects need more than 2 years on a list.
Macreadie: Has a lot of potential but has been hit with injuries. Would prefer to give him another year or two to see what he's capable of after gaining some continuity.
Goddard: Honestly believe Goddard could be a very good player if he improves his running. Had a lot of injuries and like Macreadie, just needs some continuity. At worst, he's a leader of our backline in the VFL and can help mentor younger players coming through.
Betts: Probably plays for two years.
Simmo: Yea, I'll give you that one.
Murphy: He's only 32. Could easily play another 2-3 years on the wing. If he's motivated enough to play on, I can't see why not. He's still a very good player. Hope he's around to experience some success right at the end of his career.
Yep, agree with all of your points. Not saying all will go, but, like Stamos says, there is question marks on all of those guys.
 

Kreuuuzeurns

Premiership Player
Sep 25, 2013
3,759
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AFL Club
Carlton
No chance BSOS Macreadie Cottrell or Kennedy are moved on at the end of year, not even close imo...
I hope not.

BSOS is a project atm and might stagnate in his second year.

Cottrell before a few pre season reports was well inside this potential group. I’m really loving what I’m hearing though and I hope it translates to the ones.

Macreadie and Kennedy might simply be squeezed out and look for more opportunity. I think both are good enough to play at AFL level just may e not with us. That is the reality we’ll face with so many kids in the same age bracket. Some will eventually be squeezed out.

This is all very early days stuff though. All 4 can become great players for us if we develop them right.
 

BigBreakfast

Team Captain
Sep 19, 2019
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Paddy D has played 39 games in his first two seasons and was still only 19yo at the end of last season. Not a bad start.

The only issue with him is that he still seems fairly immature as a footballer....he's got the skills, and speed, and knowhow, but still seems like a kid playing senior footy....which he actually was. We know there are man-childs out there at AFL level who probably reach their peak at 19 or 20, like a Jack Graham....Paddy aint one of them.

But his upside is still huge, and I think he'll be a ripper once he matures and his body starts to fill out. It wouldn't hurt to give him more time in the NB's to develop his game, we just need to be a little more patient.....and having Diesel at the club to mentor him doesn't hurt either.

Not since we had Yaz and Jeffy and Dennis and Juddy have we had players that we can surge into the forward half with speed as a collective....with Paddy and LO'B and our new recruits, that's something we can look forward to in a few years.
The break away goals we have seen, especially the dribbler on right half forward and the Freo over the back on left half forward, shows he can do it at the level. Let’s not kill the boy yet. Will be one of those 10 - 20th best players on the list who make us premiership contenders. With depth that good, the future looks bright.
 

FitzroyBlueBagger

FitzroyBlueBagger
Sep 30, 2018
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I hope not.

BSOS is a project atm and might stagnate in his second year.

Cottrell before a few pre season reports was well inside this potential group. I’m really loving what I’m hearing though and I hope it translates to the ones.

Macreadie and Kennedy might simply be squeezed out and look for more opportunity. I think both are good enough to play at AFL level just may e not with us. That is the reality we’ll face with so many kids in the same age bracket. Some will eventually be squeezed out.

This is all very early days stuff though. All 4 can become great players for us if we develop them right.
BSOS will eventually be a long term key position player where his best position is still a little debatable, my opinion is watching him both with his limited games in U18’s and NB’s this year I personally think his a natural forward. That’s not to say he can’t play down back because as a first year kid being underdeveloped physically against the bigger bodies he showed his got a great ability to read the play with how the ball was coming in, his positioning and defending one on one was very impressive.
Cottrell has wonderful upside as a rookie his aerobic capacity speaks for itself but that would be selling him short because from what I’ve seen of him this year he has the ability to just find the ball continued getting
to the right areas whether it be in a contested play or dropping back to cut off the kick, gives good run when in possession and follows up to link and chain up.
Macredie and Kennedy are unfortunately victims of pure bad luck so far in their short careers.
Macreadie is a clever footballer great athletic ability has good speed agility for his size, looks to be a rebounding defender time will tell if he’ll be that third tall or if he can put on the required muscle and strength to play more the true key position.
Kennedy. he’s had rotten luck with his ankle since coming to us and I feel he’s not quick nor the most mobile player for his size because of it but I’m hoping he can get back to recapturing some of the talent he showed at GWS.
BSOS and Cottrell are a lock, the only thing i see that will end the other two playing careers are a seriously continued bad run with injury that Russell and the club decide their probably not worth persisting with anymore...
 
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rp84

Premiership Player
Feb 25, 2010
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Lang: Retain as depth. Can fill a void if required. Every club needs these guys on the list.
Polson: Need to see what he brings to the table this season. Maybe but still too early to tell.
Finbar: Definitely deserves another year. Just look at how he's transforming his body. Way too early to make a call on him. Long term projects need more than 2 years on a list.
Macreadie: Has a lot of potential but has been hit with injuries. Would prefer to give him another year or two to see what he's capable of after gaining some continuity.
Goddard: Honestly believe Goddard could be a very good player if he improves his running. Had a lot of injuries and like Macreadie, just needs some continuity. At worst, he's a leader of our backline in the VFL and can help mentor younger players coming through.
Betts: Probably plays for two years.
Simmo: Yea, I'll give you that one.
Murphy: He's only 32. Could easily play another 2-3 years on the wing. If he's motivated enough to play on, I can't see why not. He's still a very good player. Hope he's around to experience some success right at the end of his career.

Think you've got some navy tinted glasses on there.

No chance polson and Lang survive this contract.

Goddard highly unlikely to get another contract.

Simmo would be short priced favourite for retirement.

If we get papley, no need to keep owies the project small forward. Particularly after drafting a couple guys who can play there.

Macreadie needs to show something after a very poor year.
 

FitzroyBlueBagger

FitzroyBlueBagger
Sep 30, 2018
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I hope not.

BSOS is a project atm and might stagnate in his second year.

Cottrell before a few pre season reports was well inside this potential group. I’m really loving what I’m hearing though and I hope it translates to the ones.

Macreadie and Kennedy might simply be squeezed out and look for more opportunity. I think both are good enough to play at AFL level just may e not with us. That is the reality we’ll face with so many kids in the same age bracket. Some will eventually be squeezed out.

This is all very early days stuff though. All 4 can become great players for us if we develop them right.
Just wanted to add Kreuuuz that the development of these four players is vital in a way for us, that will give us the depth and stability as a list as we continue over the next few years as we start to become the team/club we all think we will. As can happen nothings guaranteed simply not all of them make it as much as we would like that to be...
 

Mr_Plow

That name again...
May 18, 2008
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Melbourne
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I think we unfortunately say goodbye to Polson (not enough tools) and Lang (has lost his pace/mobility through injury and watching him run/waddle is painful) at season's end.

If Goddard can't find some endurance and mobility, he is in strife too. Macreadie is a wait and see proposition. Owies would want to make best improvement in the skills department.

Possible retirements for Simpson and Betts. No need for anyone else to retire.

No rush on BSOS, if Finbar keeps progressing then 1 year extension.

No more 2 year extensions for VFL late draft/rookie youth, pls.

There's 5-7 changes depending on how season unfolds.
 

footyfan78

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 27, 2014
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there are no other teams worthy
We finished 16th on the ladder. We're not in a position to lose highly rated young talent. Not every 18 or 19 year old gets to develop their craft at the top level. This is something we've become accustomed to because we didn't have much of an option. Now we have greater depth, we have the option of developing our draftees the more traditional way via the VFL.

I still maintain that the abundance of high quality youth is the reason why we won't trade for players from other clubs. Maybe a small forward, but that would be about it.

Our primary goal must be to make sure we have the right systems in place to develop these players.
Very well said.
 

HalAlaric

All Australian
Aug 19, 2014
764
928
AFL Club
Carlton
My overly-lengthy opinion and thoughts on our depth stocks and a few best 22's

Depth 2020 (from best to worst for position)

Key Defender: Weitering / Jones / Marchbank / Casboult (def/fwd/ruc) / Goddard / Macreadie / B.Silvagni (def/fwd)

* Although still young we have terrific depth in our key defensive posts that rival clubs would be envious for. It would be great to see Macreadie & Goddard make a claim at 1sts action but doesn't seem likely to push anyone out. My big hope is for Marchbank to play a full season to pair and really gell with Weitering. I think long term (back end of season) the 3 key back play will be scrapped for a speedier outfit but for the moment we will continue playing the safe bet of the in-form Jones or Casboult.

Small & Medium Defenders: Docherty (def/mid) / Plowman / Simpson (def/mid) / Newman / O'Brien (def/mid) / Williamson / Kemp (def/fwd)

* Whilst I wish not to count the chickens before they hatch, it's my belief that having a fit Docherty back is our best chance of moving into the top 8 in 2020. If he returns to his best and can even grow further from his previous performances in 2017 when he won All-Australian honors then lining up alongside of Plowman, Newman & veteren Simpson will make for a very tough to score against Carlton defense. Both Williamson & O'brien to get many a game though with the lines ability to move into the midfield.

Inside Midfielders: Cripps (mid/fwd) / Walsh / E.Curnow / Setterfield (mid/fwd) / Cuningham (mid/fwd) / Dow (mid/fwd) / Philp / Ramsay

* It was a promising draft from SOS & his team to give us a few further options in the guts for seasons to come. Philp with his pace (2.87s over 20m sprint) and Ramsay with his ball winning ability (avg 31 dsp in a purple patch late in the season), although I don't see them playing any 1st games in 2020. It is Setterfield I am most excited about though and with reports of that he is in terrific shape we could all get to see why both SOS & GWS rate him so highly. Cuningham and Dow are others that need to improve and start to impress.

Outside Midfielders: Murphy (mid/fwd) / Petrevski-Seton (def/mid/fwd) / Martin (def/mid/fwd) / Fisher (mid/fwd) / Stocker (def/mid) / Polson (mid/fwd)

* Murphy's move back into the midfield seemed like an obvious choice when proved with our late season resurgence under Teague. In the mix now with new recruit Martin as well as further growth into Fisher & Petrevski-Seton our midfield is really starting to take shape. Cuningham with his pace could have also been included while I also see Stocker as a it of a bull inside/outside mid. Have no idea on what's holding Polson back but hopefully can make a few steps up in the 2nds to have consideration for selection.

Small & Medium Forwards: Betts / J.Silvagni (def/mid/fwd) / Kennedy (mid/fwd) / Gibbons (mid/fwd) / Lang / Owies / Cottrell (mid/fwd) / Honey / Phillips

* A huge problem over the last few years and although the hole is smaller it is not gone altogether. Eddie being back is awesome and we have taken the plunge on some possibly highly rewarding rookies but this line is still our weakest. On the positive we do have a lot of players who can comfortably play through the midfield and forward line such as Cripps, Martin, Murphy, Setterfield, Fisher, Cuningham, Dow & Petrevski-Seton so hopefully it can be proven to not present too much a concern.

Key Forwards: C.Curnow / McKay / McGovern / O'Dwyer

* I like the diversity of this line and think it will be a force in years to come but reports do suggest Charlie & Harry are no certainty to make Rd 1 after suffering injuries already in the pre season. Levi will take a up forward mantle alongside McGovern with possibly an extra ruckman or someone like J.Silvagni, Kennedy or Setterfield performing the 3rd tall role.

Rucks: Kreuzer / Pittonet / De Koning (fwd/ruc)

* I was a little upset losing Phillips strangely enough but was swayed through the pick up of Pittonet who I rank higher than Phillips due to his work around the ground and upside due to his youth. Hopefully De Koning can start making his mark at VFL level and with more games under his belt make a pressing for senior selection.

My best 22:
Carlton Blues
Docherty -- Jones -- Plowman
Simpson -- Weitering-- Newman
Murphy -- Cripps -- Petrevski-Seton
Martin -- C.Curnow -- Cuningham
McGovern -- McKay -- Betts
Kreuzer -- Walsh -- E.Curnow

Fisher -- Setterfield -- J.Silvagni -- Marchbank

* Quick, defensive minded team with overall above average disposal efficiency and ball winning ability.
Casboult, Gibbons, O'Brien & Dow the unlucky ones to miss out. J.Silvagni & Cuningham scraped in.

Northern Blues
Williamson -- Casboult -- Macreadie
O'Brien -- Goddard -- Stocker
Dow -- Kennedy -- Polson
Owies -- O'Dwyer -- Kemp
De Koning -- B.Silvagni -- Lang
Pittonet -- Philp -- Gibbons

Cottrell -- Honey -- Phillips

* Not the greatest team by any shop but one that hopefully stays competitive and plays finals. We need a lot more success for this team to help fast track them for life in the seniors.

Coaching
I like the acquisitions our club have made in regards to the new coaching staff.
David Teague - Head Coach
Henry Playfair - Head of Coaching Development (to span over AFL, VFL, AFLW &VFLW programs)
John Barker - Assistant Coach (stoppages)
Cameron Bruce - Assistant Coach (forwards)
Dale Amos - Assistant Coach (defenders)
Ben Stratton -Assistant Coach (midfield & transition)
Luke Power - Head of Development
Josh Frasier - VFL Coach
Jason Davenport - Development Coach (forwards)
Daniel O'Keefe - Development Coach (midfield)
Sav Rocca - Specialist Coach (goalkicking)
Hamish McIntosh - Specialist Coach (ruck)
Greg Williams - Specialist Coach (skills)

I would like us to look into securing a proven opposition strategy coach as well as another assistant such as Brett Kirk to replace John Barker. I have nothing really against him but after a lengthy period at the club during some horrible times the clean out would be complete with his dismissal.


To finish I would like to wish all the players, administators, members & supporters of the Carlton Football Club a Merry Christmas and 2020 to be the year we make finals and finish 7th... ahead of Richmond, Essendon & Collingwood!
 

murphster

Club Legend
Oct 2, 2005
2,404
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Just watched the Diesel interview on the Carlton site and it was good to hear him say that Dow has improved again, what a great asset Diesel is to teach our young players skills and especially midfield craft for the players like Cripps Dow, Walsh, Stocker, Setters etc this will help them develop a lot quicker with him teaching them. Look forward to seeing our midfield tear oppositions apart next year.
 

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