Analysis 2019 List Management Discussion II

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F_therest

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 3, 2013
13,198
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Martin isn't really a noted goal-kicker and we need goal-kickers.
I understand that he's had other roles and we may still want Martin, but there should be another plan B.

I feel that a lot gravitates around Coniglio right now, as should we attain him, the other pieces become so much more manageable and attainable.
The deal I've heard for Coniglio isn't a cheap one @ 1.35 * 7, but should that signature come about, it just opens the door on what else we can target with the picks we have, as we would have taken care of the midfield and now the concentrations is on small forwards/goal-kickers.

Just seems to be that as much as Papley may make for the plan A, the plan B must surely already be in place.
TCP said the money was lower than he expected...i reckon the 1.3+ figure has been inflated.

First i heard of that figure was Tom Browne saying that's what he thinks it would take to get Conigs to Carlton, then i suddenly kept seeing that figure used.

And one apparent backup to Papley we've been linked to is Sam Gray.
 

BrisbaneCFC

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 1, 2016
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TCP said the money was lower than he expected...i reckon the 1.3+ figure has been inflated.

First i heard of that figure was Tom Browne saying that's what he thinks it would take to get Conigs to Carlton, then i suddenly kept seeing that figure used.

And one apparent backup to Papley we've been linked to is Sam Gray.
Now Eddie too.
 

F_therest

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 3, 2013
13,198
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To answer why we might be keen on Martin. Current form aside. We are currently being carried by a few older players, particularly in the midfield.

Simpson (35), Thomas (32), Murphy (32) and Curnow (29) are still some of our best players and our resurgence under Teague has come about mostly from Teague making these guys central figures in our team and getting a heap out of them.

Currently we have a few good young players coming through but many aren't there and are yet to prove themselves.

I think rather than wait for slow developing players to either eventually get there or fail, we are going to be more proactive when it comes to suring up our midfield and our future.

Currently our midfield needs more young players and more depth. It's short on rotations there's no doubt there. Cripps and Walsh are guns. If we land Coniglio then great but that only gives us around the right number with Curnow and Murphy. Setterfield is looking alright.

We need some of the group of Fisher, SPS, Dow, O'Brien and/or Stocker to step up but I think rather than relying on that to happen we need to bring in guys who are already there and are already physical enough and good enough to be top AFL players.

I'm not a huge fan of Martin but if he comes to us and can be a 25+ possession mid and be a physical competitor then that improves our team. If he makes a few others have to earn their spot then that is great because we have to get to this as a team. Giving games to young players who aren't playing well is not good for their development.

We're still having to play young players who aren't up to AFL standard yet. If we didn't have to do that then that would be great for both the team and for the young players so their development involves them having to work hard and play well to get a game.

Make no mistake, our midfield is adequate right now but it's not a premiership midfield and there are a couple of older guys there who may not have loads of good footy infront of them. There are some fairly big questions over some of the midfielders we have drafted recently, they will either not make it or they will be slow developers.

Add a couple of skilled hard hitting hard running mids to that team of ours and we'll shoot right up the ladder. Does Martin fit that bit? For mine his numbers are really underwhelming but perhaps we believe he can be a better player at Carlton or he can fill a role in the forward line.
All for Martin as 3rd priority behind Conigs and Papley.

Just don't think he's worth a first rounder...late first at most but more likely early 2nd.

You're right, there is still an unknown about some of our kids taking the next step and we will need to find a replacement for Murphy who realistically, will probably only have a max 1 more year of good AFL footy in him as a full-time mid. Martin can be that immediate replacement.

This will give the likes of Dow/LOB/Stocker a bit more time to develop and only play when they're ready and have earned it. Not everyone can be a freak like Walsh and be so good so quickly...plenty of mids take some time to develop. Guys like Sheed & Parish were quite slow to develop but worth the wait. Rayner, H Brayshaw, LDU, Cerra etc are all struggling a bit.
 

BIuebagger

All Australian
Oct 3, 2017
680
2,242
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I would guess the dates would look very close to;

Tue Oct 1 - Fri Oct 4 - Draft Combine
Fri Oct 4 - Restricted Free Agency Offer and Unrestricted Free Agency Period Commences
Mon Oct 7 - Trade Period Commences
Fri Oct 11 - Restricted Free Agency Offer and Unrestricted Free Agency Period Ends
Wed Oct 16 - (if they do the 8.30pm finish and mid week finish) - Trade Period Ends
Thur Oct 31 - List Lodgement 1
Fri Nov 1 - Delisted FA 1 Begins
Thurs Nov 7 - Delisted FA 1 Closes

Then theres still the aftermath trade period to still swap picks, national draft dates, rookie draft and last list lodgement dates to go.
 

Red Bull

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 29, 2010
7,332
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mornington peninsula
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I would guess the dates would look very close to;

Tue Oct 1 - Fri Oct 4 - Draft Combine
Fri Oct 4 - Restricted Free Agency Offer and Unrestricted Free Agency Period Commences
Mon Oct 7 - Trade Period Commences
Fri Oct 11 - Restricted Free Agency Offer and Unrestricted Free Agency Period Ends
Wed Oct 16 - (if they do the 8.30pm finish and mid week finish) - Trade Period Ends
Thur Oct 31 - List Lodgement 1
Fri Nov 1 - Delisted FA 1 Begins
Thurs Nov 7 - Delisted FA 1 Closes

Then theres still the aftermath trade period to still swap picks, national draft dates, rookie draft and last list lodgement dates to go.
Excellent 👍
 

gbatman

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Mar 26, 2008
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All for Martin as 3rd priority behind Conigs and Papley.

Just don't think he's worth a first rounder...late first at most but more likely early 2nd.

You're right, there is still an unknown about some of our kids taking the next step and we will need to find a replacement for Murphy who realistically, will probably only have a max 1 more year of good AFL footy in him as a full-time mid. Martin can be that immediate replacement.

This will give the likes of Dow/LOB/Stocker a bit more time to develop and only play when they're ready and have earned it. Not everyone can be a freak like Walsh and be so good so quickly...plenty of mids take some time to develop. Guys like Sheed & Parish were quite slow to develop but worth the wait. Rayner, H Brayshaw, LDU, Cerra etc are all struggling a bit.
Definitely. He'd be useful for us but there are players we need more, those two being prime examples.

If we can land a few more good senior players then we can have young guys playing reserves and fighting their way into our side rather than just playing young guys and guys out of form because we don't have anyone else. We've probably carried 3-6 players all season who in a half decent side would be playing reserves footy but they get retained week in week out because they do ok or they are highly rated youngsters. That would be great for our side and the development of our players if our youngsters developed more in the reserves. I think players who aren't quite there need to play a mix of both AFL and reserves football.

We've got a bit of an age gap in our list still. Those 22-30 year old players, we have a few of them but it would be nice to have a few more, preferably on the younger side of that ledger.

If we do well next season and land Papley, Coniglio and maybe a couple of others and our reserves is made up of guys like Fisher, O'Brien, Dow and Stocker and they are all in the VFL working hard and playing hard to get a game and pushing just that little bit more and learning what it is to compete with real desperation then we are in a really good place list wise.

That's why recruiting some senior bodies and the long jeopardy of guys like Murphy, Curnow, Thomas, Simpson, Kreuzer etc is really important.

Then I think at the end of next season we can start to trickle these guys out. One or two retirements and use the free'd up cap space to replace them with really good free agents and traded in players.

Trust me, I am super excited at the prospect of our young players having another preseason into them and some of them starting to come of age and the possibility that we may be bringing guys like Docherty, Papley and Coniglio into our side and possibly more.

The other thing is, if we were to land Papley and Coniglio, then all of a sudden next year's first round pick would not be worth as much to us and we might just trade it for someone who is good but perhaps not quite worth it to get ahead. Perhaps Martin. If we don't get them then sure, we need to keep that pick for future trades.

Wouldn't be surprised if we did something like this:

Coniglio = RFA
pick 10 + 39 = Papley + 24
24 + next years 2nd = Martin
Next years first = Cameron, Hill, gun ruckman. Anyone good, willing and fills a need for us.

If we finish the season strong and land Coniglio and still have money you just never know who might want to come to us. We have quite a few good players unsigned, I think we are waiting to see who we can get because if we can get a lot we will need a really open cap.

Anything could happen really and it's going to be really interesting to see what actually does happen. Wouldn't surprise me to see us part ways with a few best 22 players if we happen to get a lot wanting to come our way also. Marchbank, Thomas, Simpson, Casboult and Kennedy I believe are all still unsigned and perhaps the reason for that is because we might not be able to fit them in if a whole heap of good players want to come our way.
 

Manhattanite

Team Captain
Sep 2, 2017
305
795
AFL Club
Carlton
Definitely. He'd be useful for us but there are players we need more, those two being prime examples.

If we can land a few more good senior players then we can have young guys playing reserves and fighting their way into our side rather than just playing young guys and guys out of form because we don't have anyone else. We've probably carried 3-6 players all season who in a half decent side would be playing reserves footy but they get retained week in week out because they do ok or they are highly rated youngsters. That would be great for our side and the development of our players if our youngsters developed more in the reserves. I think players who aren't quite there need to play a mix of both AFL and reserves football.

We've got a bit of an age gap in our list still. Those 22-30 year old players, we have a few of them but it would be nice to have a few more, preferably on the younger side of that ledger.

If we do well next season and land Papley, Coniglio and maybe a couple of others and our reserves is made up of guys like Fisher, O'Brien, Dow and Stocker and they are all in the VFL working hard and playing hard to get a game and pushing just that little bit more and learning what it is to compete with real desperation then we are in a really good place list wise.

That's why recruiting some senior bodies and the long jeopardy of guys like Murphy, Curnow, Thomas, Simpson, Kreuzer etc is really important.

Then I think at the end of next season we can start to trickle these guys out. One or two retirements and use the free'd up cap space to replace them with really good free agents and traded in players.

Trust me, I am super excited at the prospect of our young players having another preseason into them and some of them starting to come of age and the possibility that we may be bringing guys like Docherty, Papley and Coniglio into our side and possibly more.

The other thing is, if we were to land Papley and Coniglio, then all of a sudden next year's first round pick would not be worth as much to us and we might just trade it for someone who is good but perhaps not quite worth it to get ahead. Perhaps Martin. If we don't get them then sure, we need to keep that pick for future trades.

Wouldn't be surprised if we did something like this:

Coniglio = RFA
pick 10 + 39 = Papley + 24
24 + next years 2nd = Martin
Next years first = Cameron, Hill, gun ruckman. Anyone good, willing and fills a need for us.

If we finish the season strong and land Coniglio and still have money you just never know who might want to come to us. We have quite a few good players unsigned, I think we are waiting to see who we can get because if we can get a lot we will need a really open cap.

Anything could happen really and it's going to be really interesting to see what actually does happen. Wouldn't surprise me to see us part ways with a few best 22 players if we happen to get a lot wanting to come our way also. Marchbank, Thomas, Simpson, Casboult and Kennedy I believe are all still unsigned and perhaps the reason for that is because we might not be able to fit them in if a whole heap of good players want to come our way.
Excellent points and agree on almost everything:
Yes we are carrying players in our 22 who shouldn’t ideally be getting a game - some of our kids would do be better in the reserves
We still have gaps in our list in the aged 22-30 and we may be looking for more to hopefully join Cogs and Papley
It’s actually possible for us to bring in Cogs plus trade for Papley, Martin and Hill this year - we have the currency and a path to get there
We aren’t in a rush to sign some of our unsigned players because we want to wait to see who’s coming in (seems we have many good prospects)



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Antonio BlueVein

I am Ze Vein
Aug 21, 2009
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Banished Fyfe into the shadow realm.
Fish’s reflexes are elite

Crippas best mate but that shouldn’t have any bearing on him getting traded or not

He’s going to be an important cog in our team for years to come
 

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Arr0w

Brownlow Medallist
Nov 13, 2015
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All for Martin as 3rd priority behind Conigs and Papley.

Just don't think he's worth a first rounder...late first at most but more likely early 2nd.

You're right, there is still an unknown about some of our kids taking the next step and we will need to find a replacement for Murphy who realistically, will probably only have a max 1 more year of good AFL footy in him as a full-time mid. Martin can be that immediate replacement.

This will give the likes of Dow/LOB/Stocker a bit more time to develop and only play when they're ready and have earned it. Not everyone can be a freak like Walsh and be so good so quickly...plenty of mids take some time to develop. Guys like Sheed & Parish were quite slow to develop but worth the wait. Rayner, H Brayshaw, LDU, Cerra etc are all struggling a bit.
If Martin moves, a 2nd rounder is ample given he is uncontacted
 

HARKER

Hall of Famer
Oct 15, 2008
49,987
69,147
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Just thinking of players that may jump out of relatively nowhere.
We could do with someone like Charlie Cameron who surprised when wanting a trade to Brisbane.
What did they have to pay for him? A pick #12 wasn't it and look at the output - Will have kicked 50+ goals this year.

These are the types we need hovering around the talls in the forward line and not some dour stoppers, nor expect our mids to pick up that sort of slack, as it just won't happen.
It doesn't even have to be one 'hero' as West Coast do OK with Ryan, Cripps and Rioli who all average over a goal a game.
(Would be pretty happy to now again have the likes of Betts, Garlett and Yarran involved - the 2013 group not the 2019 one.)

Still think that we require two genuine small/medium goal-kickers leading into 2020 and think that there may well be names that haven't surfaced yet.
 

Faz 2000

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May 10, 2007
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Fisher will be fine, most draftees suffer in their 2nd or 3rd years
Yeh, let's not be too hasty to go sour on youngsters. Fisher (and four other Blues) named in the 22under22. It's not just us that rate him. He's made a great start to his career so far. Even the best players hit slow patches as they develop. Fish is a ripper, and brings a really exciting and unique skillset to the side.
 

Arr0w

Brownlow Medallist
Nov 13, 2015
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Hopefully as simple as our 2020 2nd rounder or something like that. Maybe a sweetener like 2019 3rd rounder as well.
I know they are different players and play different roles, but Adam Saad is a reasonable comparison in terms of value, given similar outputs and being uncontracted.

Saad was also 18 months younger when traded, for a future 2nd rounder

I don't mind Martin, although I think there are better options for that sort of currency
 

bigdog43

Club Legend
Sep 20, 2015
1,329
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AFL Club
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One thing I remember Bolton talking about at length was sustained success. Under Ratten and Judd we had a list that was incredibly top heavy but the list we're building now seems much more balanced which should hold us in good stead for a long time. Here's hoping we never see our club drop to the levels it has been, ever again.
 

Blues_fest

Senior List
Apr 20, 2015
207
677
AFL Club
Carlton
To answer why we might be keen on Martin. Current form aside. We are currently being carried by a few older players, particularly in the midfield.

Simpson (35), Thomas (32), Murphy (32) and Curnow (29) are still some of our best players and our resurgence under Teague has come about mostly from Teague making these guys central figures in our team and getting a heap out of them.

Currently we have a few good young players coming through but many aren't there and are yet to prove themselves.

I think rather than wait for slow developing players to either eventually get there or fail, we are going to be more proactive when it comes to suring up our midfield and our future.

Currently our midfield needs more young players and more depth. It's short on rotations there's no doubt there. Cripps and Walsh are guns. If we land Coniglio then great but that only gives us around the right number with Curnow and Murphy. Setterfield is looking alright.

We need some of the group of Fisher, SPS, Dow, O'Brien and/or Stocker to step up but I think rather than relying on that to happen we need to bring in guys who are already there and are already physical enough and good enough to be top AFL players.

I'm not a huge fan of Martin but if he comes to us and can be a 25+ possession mid and be a physical competitor then that improves our team. If he makes a few others have to earn their spot then that is great because we have to get to this as a team. Giving games to young players who aren't playing well is not good for their development.

We're still having to play young players who aren't up to AFL standard yet. If we didn't have to do that then that would be great for both the team and for the young players so their development involves them having to work hard and play well to get a game.

Make no mistake, our midfield is adequate right now but it's not a premiership midfield and there are a couple of older guys there who may not have loads of good footy infront of them. There are some fairly big questions over some of the midfielders we have drafted recently, they will either not make it or they will be slow developers.

Add a couple of skilled hard hitting hard running mids to that team of ours and we'll shoot right up the ladder. Does Martin fit that bit? For mine his numbers are really underwhelming but perhaps we believe he can be a better player at Carlton or he can fill a role in the forward line.
Agree mate, I’ve been anti Martin too. Not cause he’s not any good, but just he’s not worth what he will cost.

I loved how sos refused to give up number one for Shiel and know he won’t over pay for Martin.

If we use first rounder for paps, I’d be happy with mid second rounder for martin based on potential, but def let him go if it’s first round.


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HavUEvaSeenTheRain

Premiership Player
Apr 20, 2006
4,328
4,355
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If the dream comes true and we can bring in Coniglio and Papley then next years subjective best 22 and how old they turn.

Doc 27 Jones 29 Plowman 26
SPS 22 Weitering 23 Marchbank 24

Walsh 20 Curnow 31 Setterfield 22
Kruezer 31 Cripps 25 Cogs 27

Cuningham 23 Curnow 23 Fisher 22
Papley 24 McKay 23 McGovern 26

Bench from
Newman 27, Murphy 33, Thomas 33, Simpson 36, Casboult 30, Gibbons 25, LOB 21, Dow 21, SOJ 23, Kennedy 23, Stocker 20, Williamson 22.

If these kids are a special group, even just better than average than age is not an issue at all next season. With that age profile there’s absolutely zero reason we shouldn’t be playing finals next season other than a horrible run of injuries, poor development or overrated talent.
Get those two and our wait for becoming a good side should be over.
 

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