Play Nice 2019 Non AFL Admin, Crowds, Ratings, Participation etc thread

Minka Beaver

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I think their identity was “Not Victory”. They also started when their was a hell of a lot of buzz around the comp with Victory flying off ground and you either loved them or hated them. They would’ve died without City so it’s hard to blame them though I totally understand what you are saying.
Heart started five years after Victory cornered the Melbourne market and when the FFA diverted almost the full marketing budget towards the 2022 World Cup bid - most of the franchise publicity and marketing was organised by the ownership, led by Steve Bidwell.

Victory (which was brilliantly marketed in terms of colours and major playing staff) began in an environment light years ahead in regards to marketing spend.
 

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Rob

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Wonder if the takeover from the city group alienated some section of fans. Before the take over the club had a real identity to it. Since the takeover the logo, club guernsey and virtually everything else has been changed.
But they drew fu** all before the takeover didn't they?

It's a textbook example of why sporting clubs need to have an identity. Not that having one is a guarantee of success, but without it you're no chance.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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Heart started five years after Victory cornered the Melbourne market and when the FFA diverted almost the full marketing budget towards the 2022 World Cup bid - most of the franchise publicity and marketing was organised by the ownership, led by Steve Bidwell.

Victory (which was brilliantly marketed in terms of colours and major playing staff) began in an environment light years ahead in regards to marketing spend.
Everything about how the Victory were setup was brilliant (the names abit cringeworthy but 99% of team names are)
Heart never had the same opportunity and had no identity difference to Victory other then not being them. They relied on people who didn’t like Victory to jump on and that’s about it. Unfortunately it didn’t work.
 

Gigantor

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Theoretically, Melbourne should be able to support 2 A-League clubs, or 3 for that matter.

Victory is bigger than the other two combined.

There are good and bad points to that. All over the world, you have situations where one club from a specific city is miles bigger than the next biggest club from the same city. One positive from that sort of scenario, is that the big club has at least a chance to be competitive in continental cups.
 

Gigantor

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Someone mentioned the ill-fated soccer world cup bid the other day.

Coincidentally, someone called Munro Mike has written a pretty good article on The Roar, outlining the media timeline back in the day:

He makes a valid point that the AFL copped a fair bit at the time for supposedly holding the bid back, when in fact, the media time line shows pretty clearly that all the way through, it was the soccer media getting stuck into the AFL.

Looking back, this is quite an amusing article from the late Mike Cockerill, an excellent soccer journo, but back in the day, he was clearly caught out doing Lowy's bidding as he attacked the AFL. Some choice quotes:

"The horse has bolted. Andrew Demetriou knows it. David Gallop knows it. John O'Neill, to his credit, never even tried to shut the gate. "

"Sadly, these actions expose the insularity of our sporting culture. The AFL, especially, has always been paranoid about football. "

"Whingeing and moaning and throwing tantrums isn't going to get the AFL, or the NRL, anywhere. Maybe they've been spooked by Lowy's tour de force to South Africa, but after Rudd laid down the law to the state governments this week, it hardly matters. They've now been dealt out of the game. All the whingeing and moaning is going to do is irritate some powerful people - making it even less likely they'll get any compensation, and more likely Australia will get the World Cup. What should be a win-win for everyone might instead end up with a few sore losers. Call that a knife? This is a knife. "

Name-calling, abuse and going into bat for Lowy, but very little by way of actual fact from a professional journalist.

Ten years on, nothing has changed, we continue to read this sort of name-calling and bile. Thankfully, we hear a lot less of "smell the fear".

With ratings and attendances continuing to drop, into a 6th consecutive year of such drops, I'm thinking we're unlikely to hear it in a hurry.
 

Minka Beaver

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Everything about how the Victory were setup was brilliant (the names abit cringeworthy but 99% of team names are)
Heart never had the same opportunity and had no identity difference to Victory other then not being them. They relied on people who didn’t like Victory to jump on and that’s about it. Unfortunately it didn’t work.
Exactly. Heart appealed to me because I didn’t like Kevin Muscat, they were going to be the original tenants at a rectangle stadium (which ironically had been built with Victory in mind, but they were already too popular to use it full time), they promised to play expansive football and - the biggest reason - I just wanted to see a second team be successful/sustainable.

Melbourne doesn’t have a clear geographic divide like Sydney, so the second team was always on a hiding to nothing. The original A-League ‘one team, one town’ policy was flawed and the BBL were very smart in creating derbies from day one in Melbourne and Sydney.

I have no interest in following an Abu Dhabi power project branded in Manchester City colours. I see the huge benefits (reliable owners, amazing training and development facilities that benefit others), but the team leave me cold.
 

Minka Beaver

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Theoretically, Melbourne should be able to support 2 A-League clubs, or 3 for that matter.

Victory is bigger than the other two combined.

There are good and bad points to that. All over the world, you have situations where one club from a specific city is miles bigger than the next biggest club from the same city. One positive from that sort of scenario, is that the big club has at least a chance to be competitive in continental cups.
Yes, except that one factor should contain their overall domestic dominance - the salary cap.

Even with Victory’s size and support, they also struggle to attract big marquee names due to much deeper pockets elsewhere in Asia. In fact, the A-League full stop does really well even to attract guys like Ola Toivonen and Diego Castro, because our wealthiest backers are not in the same ballpark as those in China, Korea, Japan, India or the Gulf nations.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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Someone mentioned the ill-fated soccer world cup bid the other day.

Coincidentally, someone called Munro Mike has written a pretty good article on The Roar, outlining the media timeline back in the day:

He makes a valid point that the AFL copped a fair bit at the time for supposedly holding the bid back, when in fact, the media time line shows pretty clearly that all the way through, it was the soccer media getting stuck into the AFL.

Looking back, this is quite an amusing article from the late Mike Cockerill, an excellent soccer journo, but back in the day, he was clearly caught out doing Lowy's bidding as he attacked the AFL. Some choice quotes:

"The horse has bolted. Andrew Demetriou knows it. David Gallop knows it. John O'Neill, to his credit, never even tried to shut the gate. "

"Sadly, these actions expose the insularity of our sporting culture. The AFL, especially, has always been paranoid about football. "

"Whingeing and moaning and throwing tantrums isn't going to get the AFL, or the NRL, anywhere. Maybe they've been spooked by Lowy's tour de force to South Africa, but after Rudd laid down the law to the state governments this week, it hardly matters. They've now been dealt out of the game. All the whingeing and moaning is going to do is irritate some powerful people - making it even less likely they'll get any compensation, and more likely Australia will get the World Cup. What should be a win-win for everyone might instead end up with a few sore losers. Call that a knife? This is a knife. "

Name-calling, abuse and going into bat for Lowy, but very little by way of actual fact from a professional journalist.

Ten years on, nothing has changed, we continue to read this sort of name-calling and bile. Thankfully, we hear a lot less of "smell the fear".

With ratings and attendances continuing to drop, into a 6th consecutive year of such drops, I'm thinking we're unlikely to hear it in a hurry.
That’s actually a really good article!
 

Rob

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Yes, except that one factor should contain their overall domestic dominance - the salary cap.

Even with Victory’s size and support, they also struggle to attract big marquee names due to much deeper pockets elsewhere in Asia. In fact, the A-League full stop does really well even to attract guys like Ola Toivonen and Diego Castro, because our wealthiest backers are not in the same ballpark as those in China, Korea, Japan, India or the Gulf nations.
Only in terms of what they're prepared to pay, and that's because they aren't likely to get bang for their buck. Take City group for example - they could send David Villa to Melbourne, but chose not to because they get better return playing him in New York. Sage has the money to get a big marquee, but spending $10 million isn't likely to see more than a short term sugar rush for the Glory and a zero chance of coming even close to getting his money back.

I guess it's easy to say they shouldn't try and compete with other leagues around the world, but they don't really have a choice. They compete for players, fans and investment dollars. It actually astounds me why people continue to invest in it. The story was the owners of Western United (whoever they are) paid around $15m just for the licence. Talk about pissing your money up against the wall......it's not even like there's any sort of prestige owning a sports team playing in a stadium that's 90% empty.
 

Gigantor

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The story was the owners of Western United (whoever they are) paid around $15m just for the licence. Talk about pissing your money up against the wall......it's not even like there's any sort of prestige owning a sports team playing in a stadium that's 90% empty.
It makes a tiny bit of sense if the club owners intend to keep it as a closed league.
This is why no one should expect the implementation of promotion and relegation in a hurry, some of the club owners have spent a small fortune on a license and it's very hard to see them voting themselves out of the league.
Also, if we view the A-League like a bit of a Ponzi scheme, the most recent license holders are happy to pay the inflated license fee because the next licenses will be sold for an even higher fee.
They are happy, as long as they sell out long before the piper needs to be paid.
Who will be left holding the parcel when the music stops?
 

Gigantor

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By the way, in case anyone is interested in where the whole "smell the fear" came from well, it was coined by an English soccer commentator, Simon Hill, around the time the A-League started, while he was still working with SBS.

Incredibly, these are the opening words to the article SBS published online (published here for some comic relief):

Can you smell the fear?
Simon Hill (SBS - The World Game Presenter)

Can you? If you live in Sydney, you'll hardly be able to breathe for the pungent stench. The egg-ballers are starting to sweat - and the putrid odour of fear is enveloping the Harbour City in the only way it knows how...via the pages of the city's newspapers. In all my years in football, I've never witnessed such an intense, vitriolic campaign against the game I - and millions of others - love with a passion.
 

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Rabman

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Someone mentioned the ill-fated soccer world cup bid the other day.

Coincidentally, someone called Munro Mike has written a pretty good article on The Roar, outlining the media timeline back in the day:

He makes a valid point that the AFL copped a fair bit at the time for supposedly holding the bid back, when in fact, the media time line shows pretty clearly that all the way through, it was the soccer media getting stuck into the AFL.

Looking back, this is quite an amusing article from the late Mike Cockerill, an excellent soccer journo, but back in the day, he was clearly caught out doing Lowy's bidding as he attacked the AFL. Some choice quotes:

"The horse has bolted. Andrew Demetriou knows it. David Gallop knows it. John O'Neill, to his credit, never even tried to shut the gate. "

"Sadly, these actions expose the insularity of our sporting culture. The AFL, especially, has always been paranoid about football. "

"Whingeing and moaning and throwing tantrums isn't going to get the AFL, or the NRL, anywhere. Maybe they've been spooked by Lowy's tour de force to South Africa, but after Rudd laid down the law to the state governments this week, it hardly matters. They've now been dealt out of the game. All the whingeing and moaning is going to do is irritate some powerful people - making it even less likely they'll get any compensation, and more likely Australia will get the World Cup. What should be a win-win for everyone might instead end up with a few sore losers. Call that a knife? This is a knife. "

Name-calling, abuse and going into bat for Lowy, but very little by way of actual fact from a professional journalist.

Ten years on, nothing has changed, we continue to read this sort of name-calling and bile. Thankfully, we hear a lot less of "smell the fear".

With ratings and attendances continuing to drop, into a 6th consecutive year of such drops, I'm thinking we're unlikely to hear it in a hurry.
Lol the comment section is hilarious.
 

Rob

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It makes a tiny bit of sense if the club owners intend to keep it as a closed league.
This is why no one should expect the implementation of promotion and relegation in a hurry, some of the club owners have spent a small fortune on a license and it's very hard to see them voting themselves out of the league.
It makes sense if you're an existing club owner - because you're raising money by selling licences. But as a new club owner bidding? You're buying a licence to pay millions a year.

But you're right, as long as people are willing to pay for licences, there's no chance promotion and relegation is coming in. A current club owner, especially a smaller club, would be nuts to give it the OK. It'd be like the turkeys voting for Christmas. Not only do they lose the right to sell licences, they could easily go out of business quicksmart. A relegated team would be doing well to keep a third of their support. Most are already playing out of insanely large stadiums, where do they go with average crowds of 2 or 3 thousand?

Also, if we view the A-League like a bit of a Ponzi scheme, the most recent license holders are happy to pay the inflated license fee because the next licenses will be sold for an even higher fee.
They are happy, as long as they sell out long before the piper needs to be paid.
Who will be left holding the parcel when the music stops?
Well, maybe. That can't be what they're thinking though. Even the $15m (or whatever it is) that Western United paid wouldn't even cover 1 year's cumulative losses incurred by the clubs.
 

NoobPie

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Everything about how the Victory were setup was brilliant (the names abit cringeworthy but 99% of team names are)
Heart never had the same opportunity and had no identity difference to Victory other then not being them. They relied on people who didn’t like Victory to jump on and that’s about it. Unfortunately it didn’t work.

There was only one 'first-post-ethnic-soccer-team-in-melbourne" shot....there was also only one "Big V" to appropriate

In hindsight they might have been better starting with two teams. In reality, there is only one profitable franchise in the A league
 

Minka Beaver

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Only in terms of what they're prepared to pay, and that's because they aren't likely to get bang for their buck. Take City group for example - they could send David Villa to Melbourne, but chose not to because they get better return playing him in New York. Sage has the money to get a big marquee, but spending $10 million isn't likely to see more than a short term sugar rush for the Glory and a zero chance of coming even close to getting his money back.

I guess it's easy to say they shouldn't try and compete with other leagues around the world, but they don't really have a choice. They compete for players, fans and investment dollars. It actually astounds me why people continue to invest in it. The story was the owners of Western United (whoever they are) paid around $15m just for the licence. Talk about pissing your money up against the wall......it's not even like there's any sort of prestige owning a sports team playing in a stadium that's 90% empty.
What you have to consider are the vested interests - the ‘bang for your buck’ argument you raise, which was spot on with David Villa (and which explains why a top international marquee doesn’t end up at Central Coast Mariners, who instead run with gimmicks like the Usain Bolt experiment to get wider exposure). Short term deals (which appeal to all parties) are also hard to negotiate these days, as they’re contingent on transfer window rules.

My understanding was that the major partner behind Western United’s stadium pitch was Trillion Trophy Asia (owners of Birmingham City). Their reason for investment in a Tarneit stadium and the tenant club was that it would give them the upper hand on a major residential project occurring nearby. That development deal fell through and so has the stadium’s financing.

I don’t know enough about Tony Sage - what’s his motivation?
 

Rob

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What you have to consider are the vested interests - the ‘bang for your buck’ argument you raise, which was spot on with David Villa (and which explains why a top international marquee doesn’t end up at Central Coast Mariners, who instead run with gimmicks like the Usain Bolt experiment to get wider exposure). Short term deals (which appeal to all parties) are also hard to negotiate these days, as they’re contingent on transfer window rules.

My understanding was that the major partner behind Western United’s stadium pitch was Trillion Trophy Asia (owners of Birmingham City). Their reason for investment in a Tarneit stadium and the tenant club was that it would give them the upper hand on a major residential project occurring nearby. That development deal fell through and so has the stadium’s financing.
But that's the thing - why would it impact that residential development? A soccer stadium doesn't make it more appealing as a place to live and it's going to cost a shitload of money without any real chances of getting any sort of return. Ultimately these guys are in it to make a buck, and it just seems like doing this would be completely counterproductive.

Are they just foreigners that haven't done their due diligence? They think it's going to get them huge influence, not realising how small time the A-League is in Australia?

I don’t know enough about Tony Sage - what’s his motivation?
You'd have to ask him I guess. He has business interests in Asia, but it's difficult to see too many business partners from Asia being impressed at this little tin pot club that most people in his home city don't seem to care about.

He may as well just buy a corporate box at the Eagles to entertain his mates. Be a lot cheaper and they'd be a lot more impressed.
 

Minka Beaver

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Promotion/relegation is madness. The A-League itself loses money hand over fist, so God knows how nation-wide second tier football would work in a country as vast and expensive to travel around as Australia.
But that's the thing - why would it impact that residential development? A soccer stadium doesn't make it more appealing as a place to live and it's going to cost a shitload of money without any real chances of getting any sort of return. Ultimately these guys are in it to make a buck, and it just seems like doing this would be completely counterproductive.

Are they just foreigners that haven't done their due diligence? They think it's going to get them huge influence, not realising how small time the A-League is in Australia?
No, they’d have likely done their diligence. It’s a Hong Kong-based company, whose billionaire owner was educated in Adelaide. The holding company oversees diverse investments across the world, including residential property development.

I’d presume that the Victorian Government love the idea of supporting the burgeoning outer west and a stadium is a great point of civic pride. However it’s a ridiculous use of public money, hence the need to have it funded privately. To attract private funds there needs to be a carrot, which here would be the ability to sub-divide and develop land, plenty of which was on offer near to the proposed stadium site.

The second motivation is to develop a feeder team here. TTA’s subsidiary Birmingham Sports Holdings have strong existing ties to Australia through one of their directors, who in turn worked with Lou Sticca and Steve Horvat.
 

jatz14

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What you have to consider are the vested interests - the ‘bang for your buck’ argument you raise, which was spot on with David Villa (and which explains why a top international marquee doesn’t end up at Central Coast Mariners, who instead run with gimmicks like the Usain Bolt experiment to get wider exposure). Short term deals (which appeal to all parties) are also hard to negotiate these days, as they’re contingent on transfer window rules.

My understanding was that the major partner behind Western United’s stadium pitch was Trillion Trophy Asia (owners of Birmingham City). Their reason for investment in a Tarneit stadium and the tenant club was that it would give them the upper hand on a major residential project occurring nearby. That development deal fell through and so has the stadium’s financing.

I don’t know enough about Tony Sage - what’s his motivation?
For Sage, I think its a combo of, he really is into soccer, and a vanity project. Tony Sage, A-league franchise owner!
 

Ned_Flanders

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It makes sense if you're an existing club owner - because you're raising money by selling licences. But as a new club owner bidding? You're buying a licence to pay millions a year.

But you're right, as long as people are willing to pay for licences, there's no chance promotion and relegation is coming in. A current club owner, especially a smaller club, would be nuts to give it the OK. It'd be like the turkeys voting for Christmas. Not only do they lose the right to sell licences, they could easily go out of business quicksmart. A relegated team would be doing well to keep a third of their support. Most are already playing out of insanely large stadiums, where do they go with average crowds of 2 or 3 thousand?



Well, maybe. That can't be what they're thinking though. Even the $15m (or whatever it is) that Western United paid wouldn't even cover 1 year's cumulative losses incurred by the clubs.
I remember reading somewhere a few years ago the transfer fees can be a decent income source.
 

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