Play Nice 2019 Non AFL Admin, Crowds, Ratings, Participation etc thread

NoobPie

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No i was asking a civil question as i didn't know the answer.
Don't go down the road of Noob pie you are a far better poster than him.

Sorry Aussie in exile. I was harsh, let me make it up to you.

Here is something that you can rub in to your brother in law. It will be a massive kick in the guts

Australian football has more organsied participants in NSW than rugby league!

Higher for adults...

1574807679891.png


And rugby league doesn't even make the top ten for kids!


1574807745780.png


You owe me one
 

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Minka Beaver

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Is this actually happening? Do you know what the logic is?

What I find most absurd about global soccer politics and "governance" is this concept of preventing government interference in soccer federations governance processes (which came up when the franchises were trying "reform" the FFA). The reality is, this basically just boils down to a ban on democratic countries with functioning institutions and power separation having any say in the running of a sport they fund to the multi-millions. Corrupted authoritarian regimes get free reign
Yeah, it's a Confederation-wide policy to have promotion-relegation in place in member nations. It's ludicrous. They want to replicate something that works in some European nations (because they have the requisite population density, geography, travel costs, playing standard and general interest in the sport), but even there is often financially unsustainable. Pro-Rel is fine for China or Japan, but it would be a disaster here. The AFC specifically mentioned it for Australia after they did a review of the A-League in 2010-11 and have been nagging the FFA on the matter ever since.

The government interference rules are a double-edged sword. They definitely hinder low-corruption nations such as Australia (where Senate Inquiries have been important outside regulation mechanisms), but they are a blessing for all the kleptocracies where governments try to pick/manipulate appointments and selection (e.g. Cameroon president Paul Biya, who used to personally pick the World Cup squad).
 

Minka Beaver

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If you want to get really tired, howabout you search for a comment on the AFL attendance thread where you took umbrage at the soccer trolls insisting that the Giants crowd counts were inflated? I suspect you'll be looking for a long time

Obviously the only hard evidence would be a whistleblower confirming crowd inflation

Short of that, we'll have to settle with SMFC mike's excellent estimates based on tweeted photos that demonstrate that there is no chance stated crowds are correct....

That Mike bloke is a lunatic. He has a very twisted take on life and he's hardly an independent observer.

The A-League is not a perfect world, but its markers ($50 million a year in TV revenue, average crowds per season of between 10 and 12,000) are still better signs for a sustainable, fully professional national league than what was possible under the NSL (and I say that as someone who attended South Melbourne games).
 

Our Game

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That Mike bloke is a lunatic. He has a very twisted take on life and he's hardly an independent observer.

The A-League is not a perfect world, but its markers ($50 million a year in TV revenue, average crowds per season of between 10 and 12,000) are still better signs for a sustainable, fully professional national league than what was possible under the NSL (and I say that as someone who attended South Melbourne games).
You have rose coloured glasses on if the think everything is rosy with the A League The crowds and TV ratings have already dropped this ear and it isnt even summer yet.$50 million per year is chicken feed for a TV deal.
 

Minka Beaver

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You have rose coloured glasses on if the think everything is rosy with the A League The crowds and TV ratings have already dropped this ear and it isnt even summer yet.$50 million per year is chicken feed for a TV deal.
My exact words: "The A-League is not a perfect world." That's not "everything is rosy."

The TV deal is sufficient to keep the A-League operating as a viable national competition and crowds are up on last year (and have been remarkably consistent over the A-League's history).

The bottom line is that the A-League is not a premium competition like the NRL, AFL or BBL, but neither is it a basket-case, which a lot of people on here make it out to be. It's basically a flawed but functional national competition.
 

NoobPie

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Yeah, it's a Confederation-wide policy to have promotion-relegation in place in member nations. It's ludicrous. They want to replicate something that works in some European nations (because they have the requisite population density, geography, travel costs, playing standard and general interest in the sport), but even there is often financially unsustainable. Pro-Rel is fine for China or Japan, but it would be a disaster here. The AFC specifically mentioned it for Australia after they did a review of the A-League in 2010-11 and have been nagging the FFA on the matter ever since.
It sure is ludicrous. I'd heard it mentioned before but only by the types of Australian soccer fans who think introducing it next week will be a panacea for Australian soccer. I had just assumed they were reading too much in to things.

I think that's soccer's big problem in this country. If the average punter had your realism there wouldn't be a problem. All the angst and hand-wringing is a result of not being content with its predicament. Likewise all the bitterness and discordance that is a direct result of buying into a narrative of victim-hood and deprivation


The government interference rules are a double-edged sword. They definitely hinder low-corruption nations such as Australia (where Senate Inquiries have been important outside regulation mechanisms), but they are a blessing for all the kleptocracies where governments try to pick/manipulate appointments and selection (e.g. Cameroon president Paul Biya, who used to personally pick the World Cup squad).
I think the issue is when the head of the local football federation is also the "minister for interior peace"...the reality is i countries without a functioning rule of law institutional boundaries don't exist. You might stop third world country's presidents personally picking national teams but you won't stop real sophisticated corruption - if anything it provides a cover for it

My exact words: "The A-League is not a perfect world." That's not "everything is rosy."

The TV deal is sufficient to keep the A-League operating as a viable national competition and crowds are up on last year (and have been remarkably consistent over the A-League's history).

The bottom line is that the A-League is not a premium competition like the NRL, AFL or BBL, but neither is it a basket-case, which a lot of people on here make it out to be. It's basically a flawed but functional national competition.
I largely agree with you.

Soccer's biggest problem is the combination of too many of its supporters: (1) are not satisfied with having a modest, slowly growing national league (2) buy into the "sheilas wogs and poofters" victim narrative.

The A League will survive as long as there are franchisers willing to subsidise teams. It will have periods of downturn and periods of modest upturn. Unfortunately when the latter occurs you get this..,.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/oct/08/football-biggest-sport-in-australia-a-league

...expectations raised absurdly high and then the next downturn happens...rinse and repeat. A Sisyphean hell for the deluded
 

The_Wookie

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My exact words: "The A-League is not a perfect world." That's not "everything is rosy."

....and crowds are up on last year (and have been remarkably consistent over the A-League's history).
No they arent - down 6.14% on the same time last year, but tracking slightly ahead of last years full season average at the moment. And no they havent - they peaked in 2008, had some minor resurgences - nowhere near that peak.
 

jatz14

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Sorry Aussie in exile. I was harsh, let me make it up to you.

Here is something that you can rub in to your brother in law. It will be a massive kick in the guts

Australian football has more organsied participants in NSW than rugby league!

Higher for adults...

View attachment 785291

And rugby league doesn't even make the top ten for kids!


View attachment 785292

You owe me one
Remember, when you get down to those sort of numbers, the error margin is like 100%
 

Gigantor

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Remember, when you get down to those sort of numbers, the error margin is like 100%
I'm struggling to work out how a Govt survey can have such a huge error margin.
Haven't any of them studied Statistical Method 101??
 

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Minka Beaver

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No they arent - down 6.14% on the same time last year, but tracking slightly ahead of last years full season average at the moment. And no they havent - they peaked in 2008, had some minor resurgences - nowhere near that peak.
I just went off the full season averages, not the season to date. I've gone back and looked at the season to date (so end of Round 7) and attendances are skewed by a new franchise that isn't playing in its home city. Remove Western United's four 'home' games and its 11,862 (2018-19) versus 11,813 (2019-20). That's a minuscule drop.

The long-term averages are remarkably stable: one season sits outside the 10-13k range (2007-08) and two sit below it (2009-10 and 2010-11, when new sides entered the competition, but marketing spend was at its lowest point due to the World Cup bid sucking up funds).

It's a remarkably stable level of interest. Yet it still annoys everyone. Soccer fans are dissatisfied and think the game is heading down the chute, while the sport's detractors either criticise it for not being a juggernaut or being of secondary interest to the NBL.
 

Gigantor

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It is remarkably stable. In fact, the average across all of the 15 seasons is bang on what the 1st season average was.

That average will decline with the admittance of new clubs (as it did when GCU and the Fury were in).

Once promotion and relegation comes in, you only need the relegation of a couple of big city clubs for the average to plummet further.

Promote a club from Morwell, and another Darwin for the the plummet to be complete.
 

BringBackTorps

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The Australian A. Jones 29.11

Jones says calamity awaits RA, as Foxtel has withdrawn from Rights' talks. Optus is offering only $30,000,000 pa (inc. overseas rights?), about half RA was receiving previously for the rights.

theaustralian.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=TAWEB_WRE170_a&dest=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theaustralian.com.au%2Fsport%2Frugby-union%2Fcalamity-threatens-rugby-australias-

(behind paywall, can anyone open & post here)
 
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NoobPie

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The Australian A. Jones 29.11

Jones says calamity awaits RA, as Foxtel has withdrawn from Rights' talks. Optus is offering only $30,000,000 pa, about half RA was receiving previously for the rights.

theaustralian.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=TAWEB_WRE170_a&dest=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theaustralian.com.au%2Fsport%2Frugby-union%2Fcalamity-threatens-rugby-australias-

(behind paywall, can anyone open & post here)
By far the best thing that could happen to Australian rugby is for Allan Jones to die
 

Gigantor

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This is the great unknown re the $30 mill offer for the rugby rights, we don't know if that's inclusive of the international rights (actually, the $30 mill is a speculative number, the Fox offer was less than that).

The last deal was around $58 mill per annum, and about half was coming from the international rights.

So if the $30 mill does not include the international rights, then it's a similar deal to last time, although represents a small decrease in real terms.

If Fox end up getting the domestic rights for less than $29 mill, we will have our first example of the rights of one of the football codes going backwards in absolute terms.
 

Kwality

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The Australian A. Jones 29.11

Jones says calamity awaits RA, as Foxtel has withdrawn from Rights' talks. Optus is offering only $30,000,000 pa (inc. overseas rights?), about half RA was receiving previously for the rights.

theaustralian.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=TAWEB_WRE170_a&dest=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theaustralian.com.au%2Fsport%2Frugby-union%2Fcalamity-threatens-rugby-australias-

(behind paywall, can anyone open & post here)
Not comfortable posting the complete article so:

Let’s go back a bit.

In August 2017, for financial reasons, the Australian Rugby Union axed the Western Force from Super Rugby claiming it had no alternative. The culling of the Force came soon after the announcement, in December 2015, of a broadcast deal with Fox Sports and Channel 10 that would generate around $55 million dollars a year.

This, we were told, was a 148 per cent increase on revenue rights from the previous deal.

At the time, the then chief executive, Bill Pulver, said the incremental revenue from the new media rights arrangements would enable Australian rugby to revitalise the game at all levels, “with these new media rights arrangements in place, the ARU will have the surplus funds to reinvest in the game from grassroots through to the Wallabies and to address strategic priorities to grow the game including community rugby, women’s rugby and our development pathways.”

That was 2015!

Then 2017 comes along and even though the Australian Rugby Union — as Rugby Australia was then known — had just received a massive boost in revenue, they decided to cut the Western Force.

It is now 2019 and media reports suggest that Fox Sports have vacated the broadcast field and Optus are currently bidding to take their place in 2021.

The numbers will be nowhere near what they were in 2016 — perhaps as low as $20 million.

If the broadcast rights drop from $55 million a year to $20 million, say $30 million, Rugby Australia will be hit by an economic tsunami.

The last time Rugby Australia said they had to cut costs, they axed the Force. Which franchise will go next? Don’t tell me this isn’t a consequence of the way the place is being run.

...

The former Channel 9 and Channel 7 boss, David Leckie, who knows about sponsorship deals, has been scathing in his evaluation of the administration. “Make no mistake, rugby in Australia is in a very precarious position right now. The Rugby Australia board has sat back and allowed this to happen.”

The World Cup-winning captain Nick Farr-Jones has questioned the thinking of Rugby Australia, saying Clyne was “crazy” for not embracing Andrew Forrest’s offer to save the Force and inject $50 million dollars into the game.

....

The Foxtel chief executive, the very able Patrick Delany, said it was time governing bodies “got realistic about the value of (media) rights”.

This is shorthand for saying rugby is not worth, in 2019, anything like it was worth in 2016.

....

It is beyond appalling that Clyne and company can witness all of this and not admit that they are its architects, incapable of turning back the tide of failure that they have created.

Decency alone should require that they go and go now.
 

jatz14

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Jones is certainly no fan of the current administration that is managing the sport into inconsequence locally when the game is kicking on internationally.
He campaigned relentlessly for Jones to be replaced by his mate Cheika, then was silent while Cheika did worse. If the current admin were his mates, or paid him, he would be fine.

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Kwality

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He campaigned relentlessly for Jones to be replaced by his mate Cheika, then was silent while Cheika did worse. If the current admin were his mates, or paid him, he would be fine.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk
Given his involvement in the game over decades ....
 

NoobPie

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Jones is certainly no fan of the current administration that is managing the sport into inconsequence locally when the game is kicking on internationally.
Alan Jones is a deeply toxic and disordered personality. This is obvious

Rugby administrators have made many mistakes, but the likes of Alan Jones make it impossible. It's like having the most unhinged bigfooty hand wringer having more power than the AFL commission

And he doesn't like raeline castle. What a shock that is. Must be something about that person that triggers a deep visceral hatred in Alan. I wonder what it is?
 

Kwality

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Alan Jones is a deeply toxic and disordered personality. This is obvious

Rugby administrators have made many mistakes, but the likes of Alan Jones make it impossible. It's like having the most unhinged bigfooty hand wringer having more power than the AFL commission

And he doesn't like raeline castle. What a shock that is. Must be something about that person that triggers a deep visceral hatred in Alan. I wonder what it is?
So your issue with Jones, at least thats what it appears to me.

My take is of the mess facing the game & IMHO Jones point of view is as relevant as Pirate Pete (FitzSimmons) - they have different views on almost everything. You'd be crazy to accept eithers murmurings as gospel.

IF Jones had any real power Clyne & Castle would be long gone, they arent.
 
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