2019 non-freo nonchalance (aka discussion)

Docker82

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Sanga I think maintained his output until late and personally I think he is an exception. Tendulkar dropped off a long way from his peak at the end.

His last 5 test seasons Sachin went at (average)
34.12
38.84
21.00
25.33
42.00

He relied on eye just like everyone else.

Also, I think it is disingenuous to say Smith relies on eye any more than any other player because of his technique. Its unique but I'm not convinced that it is bad and in fact, I actually think it is a wonderful piece of ingenuity. Leverages his strengths beautifully.
Wow. My memory on Tendulkar was rather different.
 

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Kram

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Ponting fell of a cliff at the end, should have retire a couple of years earlier.
 

ImperialPurple

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Sorry - but back to the male-female thing. IMO Perry (along with Smith) is the best sportsperson in Australia because of her utter dominance in her chosen field. Of course you can’t compare the men with the women, but no one, other than Smith, comes close to dominating in the way that she does.

Yes Ash Barty is #1 in the world, but other than Serena, there’s been no one who has dominated the game (from a women’s POV) in the way that she has in recent years, and other numbers ones have had their moment in the spotlight but come and gone. Time will only tell which category Barty sits in. I personally don’t reckon she will be the equal of Serena, or Steffi Graf, or Martina Navratilova.

Federer would have knocked Serena off the court if they had played a match in their heyday, but they are equal in their greatness in the game of tennis.

Then there’s Dylan Alcott. Even though he’s recently retired, there was a time when you could argue that he was Australia’s greatest sportsperson. He won Slam after Slam and was pretty much unbeatable. Does the fact he’s in a wheelchair discount his phenomenal achievements? I don’t reckon it does. For a while he was the greatest sport person in Aus - his achievements were unparalleled.

So saying ‘yeah but she’s not as good as the men’ is similar to saying ‘yeah but Alcott's not as good cos he’s in a wheelchair’, and both comments are sexist and ableist.

/rant
 

wayToGo_

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Yes Ash Barty is #1 in the world, but other than Serena, there’s been no one who has dominated the game (from a women’s POV) in the way that she has in recent years, and other numbers ones have had their moment in the spotlight but come and gone. Time will only tell which category Barty sits in. I personally don’t reckon she will be the equal of Serena, or Steffi Graf, or Martina Navratilova.
I'm far from a tennis fan but you are underselling tennis a lot. Ask people all around the world who those people bolded are and they'd know their names - they are legends of sport globally. Hardly anyone outside Australia and the few cricket playing countries know who cricket players are. It's like comparing apples with oranges. If you take your Australian cricket-loving glasses off (I still find it hilarious so many cricket captains have become Australians of the Year - it makes no sense!) then you'd realise the enormity of what Barty has achieved. She is currently the best in a truly global sport. Taking nothing away from cricket players but it is just a handful of countries involved.

edit - probably important to recognise the massive populations of the countries involved in cricket. There a a billion+ Indians of whom a large majority seem quite obsessed.
 

Joao

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Federer would have knocked Serena off the court if they had played a match in their heyday, but they are equal in their greatness in the game of tennis.
I agree with everything you say but just wanted to elaborate on this point. Serena played some no-name male tour player who was ranked like 199 or something and if memory serves he wiped her 6-0 6-0. The physical difference between male and female elite athletes is staggering.

Doesn't diminish Serena though, as you say.
 

Clems Knee

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Sorry - but back to the male-female thing. IMO Perry (along with Smith) is the best sportsperson in Australia because of her utter dominance in her chosen field. Of course you can’t compare the men with the women, but no one, other than Smith, comes close to dominating in the way that she does.

Yes Ash Barty is #1 in the world, but other than Serena, there’s been no one who has dominated the game (from a women’s POV) in the way that she has in recent years, and other numbers ones have had their moment in the spotlight but come and gone. Time will only tell which category Barty sits in. I personally don’t reckon she will be the equal of Serena, or Steffi Graf, or Martina Navratilova.

Federer would have knocked Serena off the court if they had played a match in their heyday, but they are equal in their greatness in the game of tennis.

Then there’s Dylan Alcott. Even though he’s recently retired, there was a time when you could argue that he was Australia’s greatest sportsperson. He won Slam after Slam and was pretty much unbeatable. Does the fact he’s in a wheelchair discount his phenomenal achievements? I don’t reckon it does. For a while he was the greatest sport person in Aus - his achievements were unparalleled.

So saying ‘yeah but she’s not as good as the men’ is similar to saying ‘yeah but Alcott's not as good cos he’s in a wheelchair’, and both comments are sexist and ableist.

/rant
There has to be a point among small sports where total domination of a sport with limited appeal isn’t really that impressive. If someone had won every competition for the last thirty years, could they be lauded as the greatest sporting hero ever? Even though hardly anyone else ever played. Real Tennis comes to mind as an example. If we don’t acknowledge the greatest Real Tennis player as the greatest athlete ever, are we being -ist of some kind?
Okay it’s not a choice for Dylan Alcott to compete in an open competition. But the reality is he isn’t competing against as many athletes. We can call Alcott the greatest wheelchair tennis player but not the greatest tennis player of the last ten years.
In short, the scale of the sport is important when comparing the achievements of different sportspeople. Nathan Fyfe is better than Erin Phillips on that basis.
 

holybishop

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North just appointed Ben Amarfio as its new CEO.

Ben was central to the rot at Cricket Australia. Here's a snippet from Geoff Lemon's book: Credit

Howard at least comes across as believing he’s doing the right thing, even if his version of right is contestable. Amarfio seems less weighted by such concerns. He ran stations like the sports-schlock sausage factory of Triple M, and the former 2Day FM when it was home to some of the foulest trolls on air. ‘It’s not always such a bad thing to get negative press,’ he announced at a marketing event in 2013. ‘In the last twelve months, the NRL has had players assault women, players assault policemen, they’ve had drug, corruption and match fixing issues – the list goes on and on. And yet they’ve just signed a TV deal for over one billion dollars, which is almost fifty per cent bigger than their last TV deal.’

As long as someone’s making money, right? Media partners and colleagues describe Amarfio’s style as dismissive and antagonistic. CA staff leaked a small but indicative story to Australian Financial Review reporter Joe Aston: that while CA was promoting cricket as an inclusive sport for women, Amarfio was making his personal assistant cook him hot breakfasts and lunches at work each day. It was Amarfio who alienated the ABC in 2013 by banning it from providing online streams of its radio coverage, a disagreement that dragged on for years. In 2018 a well-sourced story said CA had strongly considered ditching the national broadcaster altogether. In a vast country, ABC networks reach corners where internet can’t, not to mention the audience’s connection with a broadcast that’s been going since Bradman played. Recent entrants on the scene saw that relationship as expendable.

Amarfio’s most bizarre episode was moonlighting as an agent for his friend James Brayshaw, a commentator who’d worked with him at Triple M. Predominantly a football caller who jarred with the rhythm of cricket, Brayshaw was Nine’s least popular voice out of a largely unloved bunch. When his contract negotiations foundered in 2016, Amarfio suddenly appeared wanting to act on his behalf. The same person running Nine’s broadcast rights negotiation wanted to represent its staff. Brayshaw wasn’t retained, and Amarfio contacted at least one other company trying to find him a job.

Sutherland’s response? ‘I don’t think it’s right that one of our staff was acting as an agent. But let’s just say they are things that we’ll deal with behind closed doors at Cricket Australia. I don’t think this is the place to be talking about that any further.’ Of course not, talking in public about potential ethical breaches of highly paid executives subsidised by the public would be gauche. We could all rest easy that behind those doors lay CA’s steely determination to get to the bottom of things.

It’s a curious timeline. Brayshaw’s peripheral role on Nine’s cricket became central after Amarfio moved to CA in 2012. Amarfio’s marketing department produced an ad campaign in 2014 centring Brayshaw’s voice and promoted him as one of ‘the Nine Network’s favourite commentators’. Around the time Brayshaw’s TV contract was stalling, Amarfio’s old station Triple M made a late and unexpected deal for cricket rights. The lead caller was James Brayshaw. And as Triple M cancelled its coverage after two summers, the TV rights switched to Seven where Brayshaw was now calling football. Not to suggest that commentary jobs could decide a rights deal, but having a mate who runs the negotiations is an unusual quirk.


Great appointment :rolleyes:
 

ImperialPurple

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I'm far from a tennis fan but you are underselling tennis a lot. Ask people all around the world who those people bolded are and they'd know their names - they are legends of sport globally. Hardly anyone outside Australia and the few cricket playing countries know who cricket players are. It's like comparing apples with oranges. If you take your Australian cricket-loving glasses off (I still find it hilarious so many cricket captains have become Australians of the Year - it makes no sense!) then you'd realise the enormity of what Barty has achieved. She is currently the best in a truly global sport. Taking nothing away from cricket players but it is just a handful of countries involved.

edit - probably important to recognise the massive populations of the countries involved in cricket. There a a billion+ Indians of whom a large majority seem quite obsessed.
Yeah I get what you’re saying, and I know it may have come across as me minimising Barty’s achievement and really, I promise I’m not! I love tennis - only footy and cricket surpass it, and I follow it really, really closely. I guess also the fact that Perry was representing Australia in both cricket and soccer at age 16 floors me with her incredible athleticism and talent. I reckon if she had picked up a tennis racket at age 5, she would have been #1 at some stage too (hypothetical of course, and tongue not quite firmly planted in cheek).

But Perry has been at the top of the tree, the undoubted best in the world at her sport for years. Barty has achieved an amazing feat making it to #1 in the world, but I still think Perry is the better sportsperson. She sets the bar.

Hypothetical again of course, but if any of your bolded players (Serena post baby, birth and post birth complications and age 37 aside, or Monica Seles, Martina Hingis, Chris Evert) were playing today, I doubt Barty would be #1. And I don’t disagree that because of the global nature of the sport they’re household names. But how many people will remember Karolina Plišková, Jelena Jankovic, Dinara Safina, all who have been #1 at some point. Steffi Graf was #1 for 7 years, that’s why she’s a household name.

You could put any female cricketer from the past up against her and Perry is still the best. Her match figures and averages, and total runs scored / wickets taken as an all-rounder stack up against many, many of the men in their separate competition in the same sport.
 

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ImperialPurple

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There has to be a point among small sports where total domination of a sport with limited appeal isn’t really that impressive. If someone had won every competition for the last thirty years, could they be lauded as the greatest sporting hero ever? Even though hardly anyone else ever played. Real Tennis comes to mind as an example. If we don’t acknowledge the greatest Real Tennis player as the greatest athlete ever, are we being -ist of some kind?
Okay it’s not a choice for Dylan Alcott to compete in an open competition. But the reality is he isn’t competing against as many athletes. We can call Alcott the greatest wheelchair tennis player but not the greatest tennis player of the last ten years.
In short, the scale of the sport is important when comparing the achievements of different sportspeople. Nathan Fyfe is better than Erin Phillips on that basis.
But I wasn’t saying that Alcott was the greatest tennis player, I said there was an argument that he could have been considered the best sportsperson in Australia, given his domination in his sport. I agree it’s all subjective, but it doesn’t really matter which sport, and which gender, and whether someone is able-bodied or disabled - if someone dominates their chosen sport for a long period of time, I think you can put a fair argument that they are the best sportsperson in the country.

For me, I believe it’s Ellyse Perry. But I totally get that other people will have different opinions based on whatever criteria they consider the best way to judge it, and that’s fair enough.

(But it’s still Ellyse Perry... ;) )
 

wayToGo_

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Yeah I get what you’re saying, and I know it may have come across as me minimising Barty’s achievement and really, I promise I’m not! I love tennis - only footy and cricket surpass it, and I follow it really, really closely. I guess also the fact that Perry was representing Australia in both cricket and soccer at age 16 floors me with her incredible athleticism and talent. I reckon if she had picked up a tennis racket at age 5, she would have been #1 at some stage too (hypothetical of course, and tongue not quite firmly planted in cheek).

But Perry has been at the top of the tree, the undoubted best in the world at her sport for years. Barty has achieved an amazing feat making it to #1 in the world, but I still think Perry is the better sportsperson. She sets the bar.

Hypothetical again of course, but if any of your bolded players (Serena post baby, birth and post birth complications and age 37 aside, or Monica Seles, Martina Hingis, Chris Evert) were playing today, I doubt Barty would be #1. And I don’t disagree that because of the global nature of the sport they’re household names. But how many people will remember Karolina Plišková, Jelena Jankovic, Dinara Safina, all who have been #1 at some point. Steffi Graf was #1 for 7 years, that’s why she’s a household name.

You could put any female cricketer from the past up against her and Perry is still the best. Her match figures and averages, and total runs scored / wickets taken as an all-rounder stack up against many, many of the men in their separate competition in the same sport.
Fair enough. My opinion is tennis attracts some of the world's best athletes. I don't think cricket does. I think if cricket did then our Australian cricket stars probably wouldn't be as dominant as they are. It's a bit like Australia dominating the Commonwealth Games. We of course win plenty because the countries we are playing against aren't as well funded as we are. When you include the other similarly funded countries in the mix (ie go global) at the Olympic Games we are nowhere near as dominant. We still have some exceptional athletes but winning at the Commonwealth Games isn't anyway near as good as winning at the Olympic Games. Choosing this example wasn't a coincidence as the cricket countries are pretty much the Commonwealth countries ;) I think that's my pov on this. Barty is currently #1 at the Olympics and Perry is #1 at the Commonwealth Games in their respective sports.
 

estibador

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But I wasn’t saying that Alcott was the greatest tennis player, I said there was an argument that he could have been considered the best sportsperson in Australia, given his domination in his sport. I agree it’s all subjective, but it doesn’t really matter which sport, and which gender, and whether someone is able-bodied or disabled - if someone dominates their chosen sport for a long period of time, I think you can put a fair argument that they are the best sportsperson in the country.
Nah I'm with Clems Knee, the talent pool they're competing against need to be weighed heavily in the debate. If I invent my own sport and go undefeated for 30 years it doesn't make me an all-time great sportsmen when I'm only beating two friends and my little brother.

Perry and Alcott's achievements don't rate as highly (imo), not because they're female and wheelchair-bound respectively, but because of the much smaller talent pool they dominate against. Barty is competing against a proper world class field, but until evidence to the contrary emerges I'm assuming she's just going to be another of those #1's having their short time in the sun before dropping back.

Steve Smith for me is the closest to fulfilling both criteria of dominating their sport and competing against a deep talent pool.
 

DeanS

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North just appointed Ben Amarfio as its new CEO.

Ben was central to the rot at Cricket Australia. Here's a snippet from Geoff Lemon's book: Credit

Howard at least comes across as believing he’s doing the right thing, even if his version of right is contestable. Amarfio seems less weighted by such concerns. He ran stations like the sports-schlock sausage factory of Triple M, and the former 2Day FM when it was home to some of the foulest trolls on air. ‘It’s not always such a bad thing to get negative press,’ he announced at a marketing event in 2013. ‘In the last twelve months, the NRL has had players assault women, players assault policemen, they’ve had drug, corruption and match fixing issues – the list goes on and on. And yet they’ve just signed a TV deal for over one billion dollars, which is almost fifty per cent bigger than their last TV deal.’

As long as someone’s making money, right? Media partners and colleagues describe Amarfio’s style as dismissive and antagonistic. CA staff leaked a small but indicative story to Australian Financial Review reporter Joe Aston: that while CA was promoting cricket as an inclusive sport for women, Amarfio was making his personal assistant cook him hot breakfasts and lunches at work each day. It was Amarfio who alienated the ABC in 2013 by banning it from providing online streams of its radio coverage, a disagreement that dragged on for years. In 2018 a well-sourced story said CA had strongly considered ditching the national broadcaster altogether. In a vast country, ABC networks reach corners where internet can’t, not to mention the audience’s connection with a broadcast that’s been going since Bradman played. Recent entrants on the scene saw that relationship as expendable.

Amarfio’s most bizarre episode was moonlighting as an agent for his friend James Brayshaw, a commentator who’d worked with him at Triple M. Predominantly a football caller who jarred with the rhythm of cricket, Brayshaw was Nine’s least popular voice out of a largely unloved bunch. When his contract negotiations foundered in 2016, Amarfio suddenly appeared wanting to act on his behalf. The same person running Nine’s broadcast rights negotiation wanted to represent its staff. Brayshaw wasn’t retained, and Amarfio contacted at least one other company trying to find him a job.

Sutherland’s response? ‘I don’t think it’s right that one of our staff was acting as an agent. But let’s just say they are things that we’ll deal with behind closed doors at Cricket Australia. I don’t think this is the place to be talking about that any further.’ Of course not, talking in public about potential ethical breaches of highly paid executives subsidised by the public would be gauche. We could all rest easy that behind those doors lay CA’s steely determination to get to the bottom of things.

It’s a curious timeline. Brayshaw’s peripheral role on Nine’s cricket became central after Amarfio moved to CA in 2012. Amarfio’s marketing department produced an ad campaign in 2014 centring Brayshaw’s voice and promoted him as one of ‘the Nine Network’s favourite commentators’. Around the time Brayshaw’s TV contract was stalling, Amarfio’s old station Triple M made a late and unexpected deal for cricket rights. The lead caller was James Brayshaw. And as Triple M cancelled its coverage after two summers, the TV rights switched to Seven where Brayshaw was now calling football. Not to suggest that commentary jobs could decide a rights deal, but having a mate who runs the negotiations is an unusual quirk.


Great appointment :rolleyes:
So North Melbourne (where James Brayshaw is Chairman) have appointed as CEO the bloke who, in a very unethical way, searched hard for a job for his mate, the same James Brayshaw.
That joint is f***ed.
 

ImperialPurple

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Fair enough. My opinion is tennis attracts some of the world's best athletes. I don't think cricket does. I think if cricket did then our Australian cricket stars probably wouldn't be as dominant as they are. It's a bit like Australia dominating the Commonwealth Games. We of course win plenty because the countries we are playing against aren't as well funded as we are. When you include the other similarly funded countries in the mix (ie go global) at the Olympic Games we are nowhere near as dominant. We still have some exceptional athletes but winning at the Commonwealth Games isn't anyway near as good as winning at the Olympic Games. Choosing this example wasn't a coincidence as the cricket countries are pretty much the Commonwealth countries ;) I think that's my pov on this. Barty is currently #1 at the Olympics and Perry is #1 at the Commonwealth Games in their respective sports.
Makes sense 👍🏼

I have listened to your considered and well argued points and I will concede that Barty is the best Australian sportsperson at this moment. Followed by Steve Smith with Ellyse Perry nipping at his heels.
 
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ImperialPurple

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If I invent my own sport and go undefeated for 30 years it doesn't make me an all-time great sportsmen when I'm only beating two friends and my little brother
If your sport attracts Federal Funding, an AIS program, a broadcast deal with it being televised internationally, a flashy competition-wide B&F function complete with red carpet and free booze - then yeah I guess you could be considered an all-time great. ;)
 

wayToGo_

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Kind of timely... I think we can all agree there are some extremely talented sports people in this group.

AIS Personality Of The Year nominees:

Ash Barty (tennis)
Sally Fitzgibbozs (surfing)
Hannah Green (golf)
Ariarne Titmus (swimming)
Ellyse Perry (cricket)
Patty Mills (basketball)
Dylan Alcott (wheelchair tennis)
Nat Fyfe (AFL)
James Tedesco (rugby league)
Scotty James (snowboarding)
Caleb Ewan (cycling)
Steve Smith (cricket)
 

tants

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Kelly Slater is an 11 time world champ in surfing (across 3 decades). He is the Don Bradman of surfing, nobody else will come close (in the men's). But surfing is a niche sport and if 100 million people all surfed (like soccer) then there may be a better Kelly in the future. But comparing across sports is futile because people finds a sport that suits their skill set.
 

Docker82

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Kelly Slater is an 11 time world champ in surfing (across 3 decades). He is the Don Bradman of surfing, nobody else will come close (in the men's). But surfing is a niche sport and if 100 million people all surfed (like soccer) then there may be a better Kelly in the future. But comparing across sports is futile because people finds a sport that suits their skill set.
As much as I reckon Bradman is the best sportsperson ever statistics inflate his standing even more because cricket is easier to measure (doesn't mean it's accurate comparing players 100% of the time) than just about any sport I know.

I mean 99.94 is known almost as much as the Don himself.
 

Wally Walpamur

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You’re all missing one of the greatest of all time and still going. Tiger Woods. What he achieved in his career (especially pre back injury) and the pace he was winning was unrivalled.
 

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