Training 2019 preseason discussion

TheCount

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Well, y'all are welcome ... I just went through a video of all of his goals from last year. I separated them in to 5 categories ... Contested Marks, Marks in Space Solo Efforts, Over the Back and Free Kicks ... I was pretty harsh on the Contested Marks - ruled anything that didn't involve body contact before the mark as a mark in space, as there were a handful that he was in space, and then a defender got to him as, or after he got first touch on the ball, but had no effect.

17 goals came from Marks in Space
15 goals came from Free Kicks - I'd say 40% he got mugged, 30% where there, but not a huge amount in them and 30% where shocking umpiring calls
6 goals came from him getting Over the Back of the defence to run into an open goal
5 goals came from Contested Marks - tho it's important to note, 1 of these was against Cam Guthrie, and 2 were against little Gold Coast kids.
4 goals came from Solo Efforts.

That probably answers why he was given licence to roam up the ground, as he was kicking a lot of goals working back inside 50 and finding space, but for us, is that now just space for someone else to be in and kick the goal? And for Freo, are they able to play a game style that will move the ball quick enough to create it?
 

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schmuttt

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Well, y'all are welcome ... I just went through a video of all of his goals from last year. I separated them in to 5 categories ... Contested Marks, Marks in Space Solo Efforts, Over the Back and Free Kicks ... I was pretty harsh on the Contested Marks - ruled anything that didn't involve body contact before the mark as a mark in space, as there were a handful that he was in space, and then a defender got to him as, or after he got first touch on the ball, but had no effect.

17 goals came from Marks in Space
15 goals came from Free Kicks - I'd say 40% he got mugged, 30% where there, but not a huge amount in them and 30% where shocking umpiring calls
6 goals came from him getting Over the Back of the defence to run into an open goal
5 goals came from Contested Marks - tho it's important to note, 1 of these was against Cam Guthrie, and 2 were against little Gold Coast kids.
4 goals came from Solo Efforts.

That probably answers why he was given licence to roam up the ground, as he was kicking a lot of goals working back inside 50 and finding space, but for us, is that now just space for someone else to be in and kick the goal? And for Freo, are they able to play a game style that will move the ball quick enough to create it?
Good analysis. The over the back style didn't work against good defenders because they let him roam up the ground in front of them and just guard the space behind him, and he doesn't have the reach in the air to be a genuine threat in a pack in a crowded F50.

I know some people might read this and think we're salty he left, but in reality me and Topkent at least have been peddling this view for nearly a year now. Jesse is a very good AFL player and should kick 50 odd for the next few years but he isn't the generational player he was once hyped up to be.
 

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Good analysis. The over the back style didn't work against good defenders because they let him roam up the ground in front of them and just guard the space behind him, and he doesn't have the reach in the air to be a genuine threat in a pack in a crowded F50.

I know some people might read this and think we're salty he left, but in reality me and Topkent at least have been peddling this view for nearly a year now. Jesse is a very good AFL player and should kick 50 odd for the next few years but he isn't the generational player he was once hyped up to be.
The other problem was we probably kicked it to on average 10 times a games inside 50 so about 170 times for 5 contested marks. He was poor at competing for them and didn't chase an tackle which ment he was hurting us as well.
Well, y'all are welcome ... I just went through a video of all of his goals from last year. I separated them in to 5 categories ... Contested Marks, Marks in Space Solo Efforts, Over the Back and Free Kicks ... I was pretty harsh on the Contested Marks - ruled anything that didn't involve body contact before the mark as a mark in space, as there were a handful that he was in space, and then a defender got to him as, or after he got first touch on the ball, but had no effect.

17 goals came from Marks in Space
15 goals came from Free Kicks - I'd say 40% he got mugged, 30% where there, but not a huge amount in them and 30% where shocking umpiring calls
6 goals came from him getting Over the Back of the defence to run into an open goal
5 goals came from Contested Marks - tho it's important to note, 1 of these was against Cam Guthrie, and 2 were against little Gold Coast kids.
4 goals came from Solo Efforts.

That probably answers why he was given licence to roam up the ground, as he was kicking a lot of goals working back inside 50 and finding space, but for us, is that now just space for someone else to be in and kick the goal? And for Freo, are they able to play a game style that will move the ball quick enough to create it?
No reason any half decent forward can't score those goals. If you showed me that score breakdown without a name I would say Josh Jenkins. Hardly superstar forward.
 

TheCount

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Good analysis. The over the back style didn't work against good defenders because they let him roam up the ground in front of them and just guard the space behind him, and he doesn't have the reach in the air to be a genuine threat in a pack in a crowded F50.

I know some people might read this and think we're salty he left, but in reality me and Topkent at least have been peddling this view for nearly a year now. Jesse is a very good AFL player and should kick 50 odd for the next few years but he isn't the generational player he was once hyped up to be.
I've long been frustrated with the fact that he was that generational key forward in his first season, and just abandoned it for this easy goal style that he's running with a few years later, but since he's still be kicking goals, had never been inclined to really fire up about it.

But since I've rewatched last season, I've had an emphasis on watching him from a perspective of how much we'll miss him, and I think his work up the ground will be done better by the likes of KK, and down forward I'd be far more confident with Weideman being targeted going inside 50, and a Hannan or Neal-Bullen losing a man in transition and finding the space.
 

schmuttt

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Daniher could be the best in the game if he sorts himself out. Incredible size for a forward.
If he fixes his attitude amongst other things he could. Sooks as much as anyone but it barely gets covered, whereas Hogan got (Rightfully) slammed for a bad attitude. Also 57% career accuracy (Excluding OOF shots which he'd have dozens of) ain't amazing.
 

schmuttt

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I've long been frustrated with the fact that he was that generational key forward in his first season, and just abandoned it for this easy goal style that he's running with a few years later, but since he's still be kicking goals, had never been inclined to really fire up about it.

But since I've rewatched last season, I've had an emphasis on watching him from a perspective of how much we'll miss him, and I think his work up the ground will be done better by the likes of KK, and down forward I'd be far more confident with Weideman being targeted going inside 50, and a Hannan or Neal-Bullen losing a man in transition and finding the space.
If Freo are smart they'll use Lobb deep and let Hogan roam around the ground, he gets a lot of nothing disposals but can impact the game much more with his agility and stamina versus sitting in the F50 and getting frustrated.
 

TheCount

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If Freo are smart they'll use Lobb deep and let Hogan roam around the ground, he gets a lot of nothing disposals but can impact the game much more with his agility and stamina versus sitting in the F50 and getting frustrated.
If not, I'm sure they'll be able to adapt to a different style of football to maximise the players they have ... Oh wait, Ross Lyon, never mind.
 

schmuttt

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If not, I'm sure they'll be able to adapt to a different style of football to maximise the players they have ... Oh wait, Ross Lyon, never mind.
Hogan/Lobb/Walters/Taberner is a potential 120 goal forward setup, they should sack him otherwise.
 

harry000

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Well, y'all are welcome ... I just went through a video of all of his goals from last year. I separated them in to 5 categories ... Contested Marks, Marks in Space Solo Efforts, Over the Back and Free Kicks ... I was pretty harsh on the Contested Marks - ruled anything that didn't involve body contact before the mark as a mark in space, as there were a handful that he was in space, and then a defender got to him as, or after he got first touch on the ball, but had no effect.

17 goals came from Marks in Space
15 goals came from Free Kicks - I'd say 40% he got mugged, 30% where there, but not a huge amount in them and 30% where shocking umpiring calls
6 goals came from him getting Over the Back of the defence to run into an open goal
5 goals came from Contested Marks - tho it's important to note, 1 of these was against Cam Guthrie, and 2 were against little Gold Coast kids.
4 goals came from Solo Efforts.

That probably answers why he was given licence to roam up the ground, as he was kicking a lot of goals working back inside 50 and finding space, but for us, is that now just space for someone else to be in and kick the goal? And for Freo, are they able to play a game style that will move the ball quick enough to create it?
Hogan goal averages 2019

2.78 against bottom 10
1.33 against top 8

T Mac goal averages 2019

2.5 against bottom 10
2.87 against top 8
 

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schmuttt

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TMac should have kicked 10 against carlton but for whatever reason we stopped using him in the 2nd half.
 

Demon 16

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He’s a very hard player to get hold of via the draft.

Wasn’t working well with TMac though and ignoring he was partying a bit too much with a year left on his contract then I understand the clubs decision.

Still think we got the raw end of the bargain in the trade - but that will leave me pretty quickly if May is part of a Melbourne flag...
 

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If he fixes his attitude amongst other things he could. Sooks as much as anyone but it barely gets covered, whereas Hogan got (Rightfully) slammed for a bad attitude. Also 57% career accuracy (Excluding OOF shots which he'd have dozens of) ain't amazing.
Good observation re Daniher.

The bloke has all the skills and attributes. In the last few years (like Hogan) he picked up a bad habit of playing for the free. Of course when it plays out, if you are focussing on exaggerating the potential free, throwing your arms up and pleading with the umpire, you kiss goodbye to second efforts. You can’t do both at once. Both Daniher and Hogan are current examples of this (though they aren’t the first). Both should try and rid the strategy from their game.

For what it’s worth, I know any number of Essendon supporters and the ones with good footy knowledge are just as annoyed at Daniher’s playing for the free and ignoring second effort as we have been re Hogan.
 

schmuttt

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Good observation re Daniher.

The bloke has all the skills and attributes. In the last few years (like Hogan) he picked up a bad habit of playing for the free. Of course when it plays out, if you are focussing on exaggerating the potential free, throwing your arms up and pleading with the umpire, you kiss goodbye to second efforts. You can’t do both at once. Both Daniher and Hogan are current examples of this (though they aren’t the first). Both should try and rid the strategy from their game.

For what it’s worth, I know any number of Essendon supporters and the ones with good footy knowledge are just as annoyed at Daniher’s playing for the free and ignoring second effort as we have been re Hogan.
He doesn't sulk as much as Hogan (That stupid grin) but his 2nd efforts are just as bad as Jesses at times. It really pissed me off when whilst Hogan did have a bad attitude he had really bad stuff going on off the field with his dad, yet Daniher basically got a free pass for stinking it up every 3rd week. Daniher turns 25 this year, needs to at LEAST match his 2017 performance if he is to live up to the hype.
 

Proper Gander

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He doesn't sulk as much as Hogan (That stupid grin) but his 2nd efforts are just as bad as Jesses at times. It really pissed me off when whilst Hogan did have a bad attitude he had really bad stuff going on off the field with his dad, yet Daniher basically got a free pass for stinking it up every 3rd week. Daniher turns 25 this year, needs to at LEAST match his 2017 performance if he is to live up to the hype.
My most hated thing in football - watching a very good player miss opportunity on the second effort because they are busy rolling their eyes and splaying their arms out in an appeal to the umpire. Joey and Jesse were similar for the last few years in this.
 

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I don't understand the knock on Hogan's "forward craft" when everyone seems to acknowledge he has a great footy IQ and gets the huge majority of his goals by working into space or positioning his body in a marking contest so that the defender gives away a free kick to him. Relatively few cheap goals out the back. Surely that's what forward craft actually is.

The guy is one of most natural footballers I've seen and he will kick plenty of goals for Freo so I'm not sure talking him down is going to result in any jot for us. I think he'll finish top 10 in the Coleman again despite being in a pretty mediocre Fremantle outfit.
 

Cannon82

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Hogan/Lobb/Walters/Taberner is a potential 120 goal forward setup, they should sack him otherwise.
Lobb is overrated. Fantastic flash in the pan player but doesn't kick too many bags and his kicking can be shocking. An outstanding year for him would be kicking 35 goals. Walters is a sicknote, Taberner won't be seeing a lot of the ball and Hogan will prowl around and scratch up 40 odd goals himself. At most I would say they're a potential 115 goal forward setup.
 

schmuttt

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Lobb is overrated. Fantastic flash in the pan player but doesn't kick too many bags and his kicking can be shocking. An outstanding year for him would be kicking 35 goals. Walters is a sicknote, Taberner won't be seeing a lot of the ball and Hogan will prowl around and scratch up 40 odd goals himself. At most I would say they're a potential 115 goal forward setup.
Sicknote?
 

schmuttt

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I don't understand the knock on Hogan's "forward craft" when everyone seems to acknowledge he has a great footy IQ and gets the huge majority of his goals by working into space or positioning his body in a marking contest so that the defender gives away a free kick to him. Relatively few cheap goals out the back. Surely that's what forward craft actually is.

The guy is one of most natural footballers I've seen and he will kick plenty of goals for Freo so I'm not sure talking him down is going to result in any jot for us. I think he'll finish top 10 in the Coleman again despite being in a pretty mediocre Fremantle outfit.
Because he takes a lot of dumb contests against his defender when they simply play him from behind. Guy isn't comfortable leading up to the ball carrier for whatever reason and it shows.
 

TheCount

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I don't understand the knock on Hogan's "forward craft" when everyone seems to acknowledge he has a great footy IQ and gets the huge majority of his goals by working into space or positioning his body in a marking contest so that the defender gives away a free kick to him. Relatively few cheap goals out the back. Surely that's what forward craft actually is.

The guy is one of most natural footballers I've seen and he will kick plenty of goals for Freo so I'm not sure talking him down is going to result in any jot for us. I think he'll finish top 10 in the Coleman again despite being in a pretty mediocre Fremantle outfit.
Majority of the goals from marking in space are a result of him being up the ground, and good ball movement resulting in panic for the defence, allowing him to be unmarked as he gets back inside 50. While it’s good workrate, it’s not necessarily something you wouldn’t see from someone like Spargo.
 

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Iand I think his work up the ground will be done better by the likes of KK, and down forward I'd be far more confident with Weideman being targeted going inside 50, and a Hannan or Neal-Bullen losing a man in transition and finding the space.
This is where hyperbole is the enemy. KK hasn't done shit for three years, that's why Hogan going for 6 and 23 was unders whilst KK was steak knives in the May deal. KK has little demonstrated marking ability like Hogan has, while you can count the number of Hogan-quality games Weideman has had on one hand. Hannan and ANB, particularly Hannan, are inconsistent AFL players. Both are quicker than Hogan, but neither is necessarily quicker than their immediate opponent in the same way that Hogan is quicker than most full backs. ANB has the stamina Hogan has, Hannan demonstrably does not. All four of these guys could and hopefully will step-up to ensure we become stronger and cover Hogan, but bugger me. A 50 goal a year forward is a huge loss. A 20 touch, 6 mark key forward is a huge loss. It doesn't mean it'll end our club like some opposition fans might fancy, and we did find without Hogan for 4 out of the final 5 games of the year, but you're absolutely kidding yourselves if you think we'll be able to cover him with no effort. That's kinda why the massive deal that got him to Freo wasn't enough in all of our eyes. The biggest issue in my eyes will be the percentage. Hogan was great at putting mediocre teams to the sword. Our percentage was massive last year, and realistically could be the difference between a home final and an away final again.
 
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