List Mgmt. 2019 Trade Thread - Part III

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Half Back Pocket

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Even though he has played some great footy over the years, his current value is probably not as high as some here think. I'm sure Geelong would like him, but they will only trade with us on his value to their senior team from 2020 on, as he's no walk up start and a question over his issues still remains.
yeah, but that's not what you said. He can't do what he wants, as he's not a FA.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the emotional side of meeting his wishes. But i also understand the practical side of things too. I believe Gellong should adequately compensate us for him. I believe that's an early 2nd (20-26 range) or a player like Constable.

Asshole Scott shouldn't be using his media gig as a forum to publicly devalue Jack's value/worth.
 

SaintsSeptember

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Jack Steven has given us good service for years and has tasted little success at a low performing club- he should be allowed to do what he wants... he's earned it.
Good idea, make it a new free agency rule for all clubs.

Hey Players if you want to walk from that low performing club just do it.
 

ronnysnodgrass

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A little exercise I go through to clear my head on all this stuff is to forget about picks and look at player outcomes

If at the end of the period we have lost

Bruce, Steven, Longer, Pierce a few others I can’t even remember and picked up

Hill & Ryder (solid chances), Jones (middle chance) & Keith (outside chance) plus taken one kid in the first round and upgrade two others are we a better side?

My answer is 100% yes.

Battle goes forward, Carlisle plays his natural position, we have a proper ruck rotation and we have the best wing combo in the league

Who gives a crap about pick numbers, they turn into players anyway.
 

The_Steadier

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Jack Steven has given us good service for years and has tasted little success at a low performing club- he should be allowed to do what he wants... he's earned it.
This would be entirely appropriate if he'd been playing for free.

Have you forgotten about the literal millions and millions of dollars he's been paid for all of that?
 

st_trav_ofWA

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It goes without saying we want jack steven to stay.

I've never told anyone I want to keep my left leg, that doesn't mean I'm happy to lose it.
I don't think its a case of we want him gone but I think its been pretty clear internally what Jacks decision is about where he wants to play in 2020 I reckon that's been pretty clear to the club for a fair time so not unlike the Hill situation at Freo the club with the period of time to mull over the situation have already in part made plans for life without Jack at the club … its not us pushing him out or us not wanting him its just we have become resolved to the fact its happening and have moved on … its actually in my opinion a show of maturity on the clubs behalf and again to me shows as a club we are on the right path to being a significantly better club as a whole
 

st_trav_ofWA

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Jack Steven has given us good service for years and has tasted little success at a low performing club- he should be allowed to do what he wants... he's earned it.
I disagree he has earnt it … for all the service he has given the club the club has also looked after him very very well for a very long time (and we continue to do so) .. he has issues and the club will respect his wishes based on those issues but to say he has earnt the right to go to Geelong I think is the wrong term .. I think the club respect his situation enough to allow his movement to Geelong
 

DarkSaint

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Jack Steven has given us good service for years and has tasted little success at a low performing club- he should be allowed to do what he wants... he's earned it.
He has earned it by getting very well compensated as a player (highest paid in the team). The club needs to look after it's itself just as much as Steven needs to look after himself. 2 way street.
 

SaintsSeptember

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I don't care how long and protracted the trade for Steven is.
He's on the off season, we tell him we can make it happen, tell him to go off and be happy and not to listen to trade radio. He doesn't need to know about the fist fights in the rooms at Marvel.
We get what we can.

Is it just me or are our prospective trades ho-hum. Someone please tell me what i'm missing.

Hill. Very good player with talents we don't have. Turns 27 next year. Prospective career with Saints , 3 to 6 years.

Jones. Very fast ,finds a lot of the ball. Only makes sense to me if we intend to use him in the midfield, where he has the potential to win clearances and contested possessions. Sort of like a younger crappier Jack Steven. As a back line player, his disposal efficiency is comparable to a midfielder. ( Geary 74% , Jones 71% ). Gives away a lot of free kicks.
As a back line player i'd have him behind Clark, Savage, Webster. Only 24 at least.

Ryder a good mobile ruck, but 31 years old. Maybe he'll play forward and kick 10 or so goals for the season. (while we lose Bruce and his 30 odd ).
Short term stop gap. Will be gone before we have a shot at finals.

Keath. Seems to be a very similar player to Battle or Carlisle, i guess he could let Battle go forward but Battle is unproven forward as well. Can't see Battle winning the contested possessions that Bruce did. Keath is nearly 28, but probably hasn't had the wear and tear of some other players like Brown, and may be able to play into his 30s. 3-6 years of footy probably.


Draft pick 5. A chance that he will wash out, but a better chance he will be at least an OK player, who can give us perhaps a decade of footy. Also a chance he could be elite.
 

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St Neil

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What are the ideas for a pick swap to get Hill in?

Initially I feel we want to trade 5 for a 10&18 type then send 10 for Hill.

I know Freo will say 5 or GTFO but still
If we get pick 12 from the Bulldogs for Bruce what about Saints trading picks 5 & 12 for Freo’s pick 6. That values Hill at pick 10.

Saints keep a top 6 pick, Freo get their demanded pick 5 and a mid first round draft pick.

Everyone can claim a win then.
 

L_W_P

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I think that these moves are being made because the club is still expecting to push for finals pretty soon with this group.

Gone are the days of trading out 5 players for top picks, bottoming out and hammering the draft. Now you need to keep rolling and picking up talent from all avenues.

While a guy like Keath might seem like more of the same, the fact is that Joyce, Austin and Clav are all unproven. Keath has shown he can be very, very good. So we bring him in to pair with Carlisle and Wilkie. Now we have a stud in Josh Battle who can be pushed up to a wing or KPF role and develop further without hurting our backline.

Same with Jones and Hill. They let us move Gresham forward more. Billings can sweep into defence know there will be other options to carry the ball on the wing. Ross can roll outside a little more with rotations on ball.

Ryder will be a coach as much as a player. Marshall spends a year at FF learning that craft and improving his game. In 2021 he will be one of the most complete ruck/forward options in the comp because he is being developed properly and learning different skills.

I dont think we will win many more games next year, to be honest we got lucky in a few along the way in 2019, but there are going to be clearly improved standards when it comes to training, development and team flexibilty.

Ratts learned this at the Hawks with guys like Sicily, Gunston, Roughead, Breust etc all playing different positions over the years.
 

SaintsSeptember

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I think that these moves are being made because the club is still expecting to push for finals pretty soon with this group.

Gone are the days of trading out 5 players for top picks, bottoming out and hammering the draft. Now you need to keep rolling and picking up talent from all avenues.

While a guy like Keath might seem like more of the same, the fact is that Joyce, Austin and Clav are all unproven. Keath has shown he can be very, very good. So we bring him in to pair with Carlisle and Wilkie. Now we have a stud in Josh Battle who can be pushed up to a wing or KPF role and develop further without hurting our backline.

Same with Jones and Hill. They let us move Gresham forward more. Billings can sweep into defence know there will be other options to carry the ball on the wing. Ross can roll outside a little more with rotations on ball.

Ryder will be a coach as much as a player. Marshall spends a year at FF learning that craft and improving his game. In 2021 he will be one of the most complete ruck/forward options in the comp because he is being developed properly and learning different skills.

I dont think we will win many more games next year, to be honest we got lucky in a few along the way in 2019, but there are going to be clearly improved standards when it comes to training, development and team flexibilty.

Ratts learned this at the Hawks with guys like Sicily, Gunston, Roughead, Breust etc all playing different positions over the years.
I'd love to free Gresham from the midfield, but i don't think there is any evidence that Jones can win the ball out as much as Jade does.
 

SaintsSeptember

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They could even bring in a new rule to let Hawks, Pies, and Cats run bigger lists and salary caps, so they can deal with the influx. Perhaps they don't have a big enough Academy zone either, they could divvy up the Peninsula, surely Seaford would be a big enough zone for the Saints.
 

The_Steadier

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I don't care how long and protracted the trade for Steven is.
He's on the off season, we tell him we can make it happen, tell him to go off and be happy and not to listen to trade radio. He doesn't need to know about the fist fights in the rooms at Marvel.
We get what we can.

Is it just me or are our prospective trades ho-hum. Someone please tell me what i'm missing.

Hill. Very good player with talents we don't have. Turns 27 next year. Prospective career with Saints , 3 to 6 years.

Jones. Very fast ,finds a lot of the ball. Only makes sense to me if we intend to use him in the midfield, where he has the potential to win clearances and contested possessions. Sort of like a younger crappier Jack Steven. As a back line player, his disposal efficiency is comparable to a midfielder. ( Geary 74% , Jones 71% ). Gives away a lot of free kicks.
As a back line player i'd have him behind Clark, Savage, Webster. Only 24 at least.

Ryder a good mobile ruck, but 31 years old. Maybe he'll play forward and kick 10 or so goals for the season. (while we lose Bruce and his 30 odd ).
Short term stop gap. Will be gone before we have a shot at finals.

Keath. Seems to be a very similar player to Battle or Carlisle, i guess he could let Battle go forward but Battle is unproven forward as well. Can't see Battle winning the contested possessions that Bruce did. Keath is nearly 28, but probably hasn't had the wear and tear of some other players like Brown, and may be able to play into his 30s. 3-6 years of footy probably.


Draft pick 5. A chance that he will wash out, but a better chance he will be at least an OK player, who can give us perhaps a decade of footy. Also a chance he could be elite.
I've got no issues with hill for 5 and ryder for practically free.
Both fill desperate needs and are A graders.

Keath and Jones I'm with you being ho-hum about- for now...

We have plenty of footsoldiers just like them- jones would just be another flanker who isn't a true mid to throw on our already big pile of those.
I haven't seen much of keath except for that game where he torched us, but it sounds like it's pretty speculative he could be a good brown replacement at fb.

But maybe the club are very confident jones is on the cusp of being a gun mid and keath can play fb on the likes of cameron, lynch, brown etc?

At this stage I'm willing to give the club the benefit of the doubt and reserve judgement on the individual moves, because they are the only ones who know the whole strategy currently.

I'm going to wait until all trades are done before applauding or finger wagging at the individual in's and out's.

You don't judge a chef's meal based on how you like the taste of each individual ingredient as it's going in the bowl... you reserve judgement until it's all cooked.
 

gringo2011

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A little exercise I go through to clear my head on all this stuff is to forget about picks and look at player outcomes

If at the end of the period we have lost

Bruce, Steven, Longer, Pierce a few others I can’t even remember and picked up

Hill & Ryder (solid chances), Jones (middle chance) & Keith (outside chance) plus taken one kid in the first round and upgrade two others are we a better side?

My answer is 100% yes.

Battle goes forward, Carlisle plays his natural position, we have a proper ruck rotation and we have the best wing combo in the league

Who gives a crap about pick numbers, they turn into players anyway.

I'd say 100% no myself. Jack

Steven for Hill is a down grade but evens out. Jack was a much better player before this year.

Ryder is at the end and takes over from Bruce, worse forward by a lot, he's too far down the Coleman list to even count and Bruce was about 10 or 12 before finals now about 15 or something. Slight upgrade on ruck though but we have Marshall already so a loss.

Jones better than Newnes? Probably on the last year but Newnes has played better footy than Jones in the past. Break even.

Keath better than Brown, probably around the same but Keath more intercepting than a true stopper. Will play for longer though so up grade.

I don't get the best wing combo in the land either. Billings doesn't play wing a lot. He plays off a flank a bit like a wingman but not really settled anywhere.

To me none of the trades make us substantially better, I would say about break even if I was generous. The forward line is going to have to rely on Max King playing every game and playing to an extremely high standard from the start. We need stars and we are getting more GOPs besides Hill. Losing Stuv our only close to elite player will hurt a lot too. Hopefully we get 23 good games out of Hanners to off set that.
 

gringo2011

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I disagree he has earnt it … for all the service he has given the club the club has also looked after him very very well for a very long time (and we continue to do so) .. he has issues and the club will respect his wishes based on those issues but to say he has earnt the right to go to Geelong I think is the wrong term .. I think the club respect his situation enough to allow his movement to Geelong

Or there is potentially a little guilt on our side because we held him against his will this year and it sent him down hill.
 

gringo2011

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I’m starting to warm on Z Jones. I thought he was 4 years older than he really is. Think there’s room for improvement but if he does improve it’ll make the team better.

To me he's a runner even if he isn't a mid. Potentially frees up Sav to play up the ground. My only concern is that Sydney want a FRDP for him. We will have to give up something for him either a player or minimum of a future second round pick. I think it's overs for him but if we could turn Newnes into him it would be a very good outcome. I think Newnes will get back to his best somewhere else. He looks stale.
 

gringo2011

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I don't care how long and protracted the trade for Steven is.
He's on the off season, we tell him we can make it happen, tell him to go off and be happy and not to listen to trade radio. He doesn't need to know about the fist fights in the rooms at Marvel.
We get what we can.

Is it just me or are our prospective trades ho-hum. Someone please tell me what i'm missing.

Hill. Very good player with talents we don't have. Turns 27 next year. Prospective career with Saints , 3 to 6 years.

Jones. Very fast ,finds a lot of the ball. Only makes sense to me if we intend to use him in the midfield, where he has the potential to win clearances and contested possessions. Sort of like a younger crappier Jack Steven. As a back line player, his disposal efficiency is comparable to a midfielder. ( Geary 74% , Jones 71% ). Gives away a lot of free kicks.
As a back line player i'd have him behind Clark, Savage, Webster. Only 24 at least.

Ryder a good mobile ruck, but 31 years old. Maybe he'll play forward and kick 10 or so goals for the season. (while we lose Bruce and his 30 odd ).
Short term stop gap. Will be gone before we have a shot at finals.

Keath. Seems to be a very similar player to Battle or Carlisle, i guess he could let Battle go forward but Battle is unproven forward as well. Can't see Battle winning the contested possessions that Bruce did. Keath is nearly 28, but probably hasn't had the wear and tear of some other players like Brown, and may be able to play into his 30s. 3-6 years of footy probably.


Draft pick 5. A chance that he will wash out, but a better chance he will be at least an OK player, who can give us perhaps a decade of footy. Also a chance he could be elite.

I can't see anyway we have pick 5 left at the end of the Hill trade. He's not really worth it but that's what it will cost. If we could get Lachie Ash or similar I'd be happy but so unlikely. We might have to hope we end up with a player like Robertson at 12 and we need King to be a superstar from day one.

I'm worried with all our trades we could end up selling off Bruce and Gresham to end up with a bunch of beige players again and we can't bring in all our targets without selling off next years picks as well. Ben King should take the best out of the next 2 as well.
 

Saint believer

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Jack Steven has given his all for our club for 180 odd games, he’s won four B&F awards, he’s a very popular member of our club.
And this year that same man was in an extremely dark place due to very upsetting personal problems and mental health issues.
What we get for Stuv in a trade doesn’t matter, if it’s a second rounder, a third rounder, or nothing.
All anybody that knows Jack wants is for him to give himself the best possible chance of getting his life back on track.
To still hear supporters carrying on about what he’s worth in a trade is very upsetting, especially after events of the last week.
These are real people battling real issues. Instead of carrying on over a draft pick, let’s just hope that a Saint can get his life in order and just be happy, healthy and content.
Footy actually means nothing in the scheme of things, draft picks even less.
Get some perspective please.

I fully agree MG. How can we as supporters be respectful to the struggles of Danny Frawley and his message, listen to the great wards of at the town hall and then quibble about Steven.

Dare I say the words... there are more important things than football... the saints players we watch and cheer are human beings and should mean more to us than their "worth" as a draft pick.
 
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