List Mgmt. 2019 Trade Thread

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MrFoster

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Or then we can keep desperately trying to get good but not excellent players in perpetually and never go anywhere. I hope we just start drafting well myself. Collingwood got Stephenson and Mihocek types cheap and really turned around quickly. Momentum is hard to stop.
Collingwood also traded in 10 good and ready made players (half of starting 22) in Howe; Beams; Treloar; Hoskin-Elliot; Mayne; Aish; Crisp; Greenwood; Varcoe, Adams, some of these are proven guns which we don't have.. so, they didn't just suddenly became good after drafting Stephenson and Milocek. They got good because they were good at trading/attracting gun players and drafted a few gems at the same time (Stephenson; Mihocek).

Drafting 18 y/o without an experienced and high performing core does not work as the last 6 years have proved. We need to do something different.. Hopefully we have a strategy in place with Gubby Allan; James Gallagher; Simon Lethlan at the wheele. In my view, we can't attract proven guns like Collingwood can, and it's true we don't have too many assets to trade with..
So our best bet is:
- free agency by offering good money for mids; notice most of the 10 players collingwood recruited from other teams plays in the midfiled.
- keep identify young promising players not getting a chance at their present club and trade them in (e.g. Membrey; Bruce; Steele; Roberton);
- make sure we nail every single pick including the lower picks (can select proven qualities from state league e.g. Parker)
- have a coaching panel instilling a new system that gets the most out of the playing list.
 
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VDS66

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Keep Jake he is needed, Blake has got 11 more games to show his worth otherwise trade him to WA as far as Austins concerned he is deadwood & unless you've seen something that i haven't in Clav he is a B grade VFL defender at the moment.
Clav was best 22 for round one according to the oracle...
 

plugger66

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More proving a point why we didn't get em last time. Had nothing to do with the supposed increase to the cap. Nor the list management.

Don't play finals. You don't get players interested in you.
Then why did you say no excuse. Sounds like you know there is an excuse and having extra money means nothing even though you suggested it would help. I’m with vds. You have made it obvious now
 

SaintsSeptember

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Selling Mc Evoy for picks/ Savage, not offering Dal a contract when he waned to stay, low balling BJ, giving Hawthorn a first rounder that got the O'Meara done for Clark who doesn't seem much better than the players who went around our pick from the year before. Stanley for Hugh Goddard, Freeman for a second round pick, selling Mc Evoy then paying overs for Hickey and Longer, perpetually using future picks but still not getting a huge reward for it.

I would say our best talent has all been in the draft and we waste a lot anyway. Marshall was drafted, Gresham was drafted, Billings drafted, King was drafted. The only one that wasn't a high pick was Mashall. We should be using our high picks on best available talent unless we are getting an A+ mid for the pick.

We apparently got timid with how much we were willing to offer some of our FA targets, if we have a war chest just front load offer a contract to a player like Coniglio and worst case it makes life very hard for GWS to retain talent later.
A team that was good at spotting talent , could have used Pelchan's strategy and done things differently,
2012 was a crap draft, the draft pick for Goddard didn't help much, only Brody Grundy could have been a good outcome. Lachie Hunter? ( pass on Tom Lee ...Former draft prospect Ben Brown had recovered from injury in Tassie, and was signed up for VFL.).
2013: Matt Crouch instead of Dunstan or Acres. 2 of Lobb, Nankurvis ,Ben Brown, Fantasia Sicily instead of Longer.
2014: Petracca or Brayshaw, or Wright, or DeGoey instead of Paddy. Toby McLean instead of Goddard. Caleb Daniel or Mitch McGovern instead of Lonie.

Kind of would have left not such a bitter taste in the mouth.

Good drafting? Look at Bulldogs.
2012. Jack Macrae , and Lachie Hunter vs Saints.Nat Wright..who, 3 years later got 15 disposals in one of his 5 games, Hunter had 28 in an elimination.
2013. Bontempelli vs Billings. Yep as usual we took the slow burn.
2014: McLean, Dale , and Daniel. ....oh yeah, and Tom Boyd. ....we got Paddy, who lasted as long as Boyd, but missed out the fun part.

Good draftiing over that short time delivered them a flag.
 

plugger66

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A team that was good at spotting talent , could have used Pelchan's strategy and done things differently,
2012 was a crap draft, the draft pick for Goddard didn't help much, only Brody Grundy could have been a good outcome. Lachie Hunter? ( pass on Tom Lee ...Former draft prospect Ben Brown had recovered from injury in Tassie, and was signed up for VFL.).
2013: Matt Crouch instead of Dunstan or Acres. 2 of Lobb, Nankurvis ,Ben Brown, Fantasia Sicily instead of Longer.
2014: Petracca or Brayshaw, or Wright, or DeGoey instead of Paddy. Toby McLean instead of Goddard. Caleb Daniel or Mitch McGovern instead of Lonie.

Kind of would have left not such a bitter taste in the mouth.

Good drafting? Look at Bulldogs.
2012. Jack Macrae , and Lachie Hunter vs Saints.Nat Wright..who, 3 years later got 15 disposals in one of his 5 games, Hunter had 28 in an elimination.
2013. Bontempelli vs Billings. Yep as usual we took the slow burn.
2014: McLean, Dale , and Daniel. ....oh yeah, and Tom Boyd. ....we got Paddy, who lasted as long as Boyd, but missed out the fun part.

Good draftiing over that short time delivered them a flag.
I can never stick up for pelchen. Didn’t understand the importance of keeping you better players and leaders no matter what age. In our defence we couldn’t get hunter
 

SaintsSeptember

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Keep Jake he is needed, Blake has got 11 more games to show his worth otherwise trade him to WA as far as Austins concerned he is deadwood & unless you've seen something that i haven't in Clav he is a B grade VFL defender at the moment.
Clav = a 20YO tall.

A couple of years ago you were suggesting him for pick 7 or 8 ( ie the Coffield/Clark picks ).
If i'm a bit concerned that our mids are slow to develop, i'm less concerned about the taller guys.
 

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MrFoster

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A team that was good at spotting talent , could have used Pelchan's strategy and done things differently,
2012 was a crap draft, the draft pick for Goddard didn't help much, only Brody Grundy could have been a good outcome. Lachie Hunter? ( pass on Tom Lee ...Former draft prospect Ben Brown had recovered from injury in Tassie, and was signed up for VFL.).
2013: Matt Crouch instead of Dunstan or Acres. 2 of Lobb, Nankurvis ,Ben Brown, Fantasia Sicily instead of Longer.
2014: Petracca or Brayshaw, or Wright, or DeGoey instead of Paddy. Toby McLean instead of Goddard. Caleb Daniel or Mitch McGovern instead of Lonie.

Kind of would have left not such a bitter taste in the mouth.

Good drafting? Look at Bulldogs.
2012. Jack Macrae , and Lachie Hunter vs Saints.Nat Wright..who, 3 years later got 15 disposals in one of his 5 games, Hunter had 28 in an elimination.
2013. Bontempelli vs Billings. Yep as usual we took the slow burn.
2014: McLean, Dale , and Daniel. ....oh yeah, and Tom Boyd. ....we got Paddy, who lasted as long as Boyd, but missed out the fun part.

Good draftiing over that short time delivered them a flag.
Exactly.. They also got Dunkley, Ling Jong on the cheap. With 2nd/3rd roudn picks, bulldogs were able to pick up good midfield talent..
Trout didn't know how to spot midfield talent.. he was too into the idea of turning utilities into mids... Billings; Acres; Mckenzie; Wright, Coffield, the result? we are short on mids.
 

SaintsSeptember

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I can never stick up for pelchen. Didn’t understand the importance of keeping you better players and leaders no matter what age. In our defence we couldn’t get hunter
Bear in mind we were totally screwed for Salary cap back then.
We were still paying de-listed players.
We might have been able to keep Dal Santo, but BJ wanted his payday.
 

MrFoster

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I can never stick up for pelchen. Didn’t understand the importance of keeping you better players and leaders no matter what age. In our defence we couldn’t get hunter
Yes, losing Dal Santo and Goddard was devastating.. apparently our salary cap was busted.. paying top players too much money (my guess are Riewoldt; Sam Fisher; Goddard; Dal Santo; Montagna; Hays; Steven; Gilbert; Armitage).. so they got rid of Goddard and Dal Santo as they also fetched some good draft picks.

The problem is we also lacked two other elements for Pelchen's plan to work:
1. Good recruiter (Trout was given the job with little experience?)
2. Good coach (Watters and Richo).. Apart from Gresham and Battle, who has developed properly into good and consistent players in their position (in the team for at least half a season)..
 

plugger66

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Yes, losing Dal Santo and Goddard was devastating.. apparently our salary cap was busted.. paying top players too much money (my guess are Riewoldt; Sam Fisher; Goddard; Dal Santo; Montagna; Hays; Steven; Gilbert; Armitage).. so they got rid of Goddard and Dal Santo as they also fetched some good draft picks.

The problem is we also lacked two other elements for Pelchen's plan to work:
1. Good recruiter (Trout was given the job with little experience?)
2. Good coach (Watters and Richo).. Apart from Gresham and Battle, who has developed properly into good and consistent players in their position (in the team for at least half a season)..
His plan was crazy because all the best players were taken in those years.
 

SaintsSeptember

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Exactly.. They also got Dunkley, Ling Jong on the cheap. With 2nd/3rd roudn picks, bulldogs were able to pick up good midfield talent..
Trout didn't know how to spot midfield talent.. he was too into the idea of turning utilities into mids... Billings; Acres; Mckenzie; Wright, Coffield, the result? we are short on mids.
Before Trout, we had John Peak , the man who, after somehow nailing Jack Steven late in one draft went on to bring us Nicholas Winmar while the coach was bringing us in Jesse Smith and Andrew Lovett, while wishing he could have Ben Cousins and Andrejs Everett. Who got us Jamie ( personal issues ) Cripps and found such undiscovered gems as Sam Crocker for a second rounder.

I was almost amazed when Trout took over that some of his later picks could actually play footy.
Newnes and co are not great, but they are better than what we were getting.

I made a Random number generator and redid the draft between 2010 and 2014, picking all picks after our first, from any player available from a list compiled of Knightmare's top 100.
My results were not worse than our actual drafts, despite my stupid picker picking players that actually went in the rookie draft, in the second round.
I could have put some weighting on it and it would have done better.
If we'd just asked Knightmare ( who was probably 12 at the time ) to tell us which players to pick, we would have done far better than what our professionals delivered.
 

plugger66

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Before Trout, we had John Peak , the man who, after somehow nailing Jack Steven late in one draft went on to bring us Nicholas Winmar while the coach was bringing us in Jesse Smith and Andrew Lovett, while wishing he could have Ben Cousins and Andrejs Everett. Who got us Jamie ( personal issues ) Cripps and found such undiscovered gems as Sam Crocker for a second rounder.

I was almost amazed when Trout took over that some of his later picks could actually play footy.
Newnes and co are not great, but they are better than what we were getting.

I made a Random number generator and redid the draft between 2010 and 2014, picking all picks after our first, from any player available from a list compiled of Knightmare's top 100.
My results were not worse than our actual drafts, despite my stupid picker picking players that actually went in the rookie draft, in the second round.
I could have put some weighting on it and it would have done better.
If we'd just asked Knightmare ( who was probably 12 at the time ) to tell us which players to pick, we would have done far better than what our professionals delivered.
Steven wasn’t as good as it sounds. Back then 17 year olds had to go in the third round so he was taken in that round.
 

SaintsSeptember

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Yes, losing Dal Santo and Goddard was devastating.. apparently our salary cap was busted.. paying top players too much money (my guess are Riewoldt; Sam Fisher; Goddard; Dal Santo; Montagna; Hays; Steven; Gilbert; Armitage).. so they got rid of Goddard and Dal Santo as they also fetched some good draft picks.

The problem is we also lacked two other elements for Pelchen's plan to work:
1. Good recruiter (Trout was given the job with little experience?)
2. Good coach (Watters and Richo).. Apart from Gresham and Battle, who has developed properly into good and consistent players in their position (in the team for at least half a season)..
I heard that Goddard was living on a promise during the finals years. When his contract came up they simply COULDN'T pay him what he'd been promised and he was none too happy about it.

Go to 2012 when we were shot... i'd guess.

Players on crazy high money. :: Lenny, DalSanto, Goddard, Riewoldt, Fisher
Players on good money ( above AFL average ) :: Milne, Dempster, Joey, Gilbert, Koschitzski, Gram, Schneider
Probably around AFL average :: Steven, Armitage , Geary, Jones, McEvoy, Gwilt , Blake, Ray, Polo, Raph, Peak
Below average : Stanley, Wilkes,
On minimum payments : Simpkin, Saad , Milera, Cripps, Sippos, Newnes, Dunnell, Ledger, Ross,

Even players like Ray may have been on too much, depending what the deal was when he came to the club.
 

plugger66

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I heard that Goddard was living on a promise during the finals years. When his contract came up they simply COULDN'T pay him what he'd been promised and he was none too happy about it.

Go to 2012 when we were shot... i'd guess.

Players on crazy high money. :: Lenny, DalSanto, Goddard, Riewoldt, Fisher
Players on good money ( above AFL average ) :: Milne, Dempster, Joey, Gilbert, Koschitzski, Gram, Schneider
Probably around AFL average :: Steven, Armitage , Geary, Jones, McEvoy, Gwilt , Blake, Ray, Polo, Raph, Peak
Below average : Stanley, Wilkes,
On minimum payments : Simpkin, Saad , Milera, Cripps, Sippos, Newnes, Dunnell, Ledger, Ross,

Even players like Ray may have been on too much, depending what the deal was when he came to the club.
Not that it matters but Steven would have been on close to the minimum same with armo and geary and probably McEvoy. Dempster would have been on afl average at best.
 

SaintsSeptember

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Not that it matters but Steven would have been on close to the minimum same with armo and geary and probably McEvoy. Dempster would have been on afl average at best.
I agree that Steven , Armo and Geary were probably underpaid, thats why , if the salary cap rules means we have to make a min, i don't mind throwing it at those guys now. They all battled hard for a team in a poor position.
I wasn't sure about Dempster, he was a Lyon favorite, and surly if McEvoy had a half decent manager the market for rucks is/was pretty good.
 

plugger66

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I agree that Steven , Armo and Geary were probably underpaid, thats why , if the salary cap rules means we have to make a min, i don't mind throwing it at those guys now. They all battled hard for a team in a poor position.
I wasn't sure about Dempster, he was a Lyon favorite, and surly if McEvoy had a half decent manager the market for rucks is/was pretty good.
It’s more to do with years in the system. They were all in their first couple of years so they have to get a minimum contract. Dempster obviously wasn’t but he was steak knives from Sydney so don’t he got a lot early.
 

gringo2011

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Collingwood also traded in 10 good and ready made players (half of starting 22) in Howe; Beams; Treloar; Hoskin-Elliot; Mayne; Aish; Crisp; Greenwood; Varcoe, Adams, some of these are proven guns which we don't have.. so, they didn't just suddenly became good after drafting Stephenson and Milocek. They got good because they were good at trading/attracting gun players and drafted a few gems at the same time (Stephenson; Mihocek).

Drafting 18 y/o without an experienced and high performing core does not work as the last 6 years have proved. We need to do something different.. Hopefully we have a strategy in place with Gubby Allan; James Gallagher; Simon Lethlan at the wheele. In my view, we can't attract proven guns like Collingwood can, and it's true we don't have too many assets to trade with..
So our best bet is:
- free agency by offering good money for mids; notice most of the 10 players collingwood recruited from other teams plays in the midfiled.
- keep identify young promising players not getting a chance at their present club and trade them in (e.g. Membrey; Bruce; Steele; Roberton);
- make sure we nail every single pick including the lower picks (can select proven qualities from state league e.g. Parker)
- have a coaching panel instilling a new system that gets the most out of the playing list.

They did that over about 7 years though. They have pretty much traded in B graders in the main. Howe and Hoskins Elliot are both nudging A grade and Treloar is close to elite but clubs like us have to offer a lot more money to attract players like him because Collingwood has a pull for many reasons. They were below us for a few years and those guys really sparked them according to players in interviews.

Drafting well does improve us, poor drafting does the opposite.

I agree on FA, someone said we'd been a bit timid in what we offered in the past. Time to blow other out of the water on Coniglio types.

All other points I pretty much agree on too actually.
 

pebblesofsand

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A team that was good at spotting talent , could have used Pelchan's strategy and done things differently,
2012 was a crap draft, the draft pick for Goddard didn't help much, only Brody Grundy could have been a good outcome. Lachie Hunter? ( pass on Tom Lee ...Former draft prospect Ben Brown had recovered from injury in Tassie, and was signed up for VFL.).
2013: Matt Crouch instead of Dunstan or Acres. 2 of Lobb, Nankurvis ,Ben Brown, Fantasia Sicily instead of Longer.
2014: Petracca or Brayshaw, or Wright, or DeGoey instead of Paddy. Toby McLean instead of Goddard. Caleb Daniel or Mitch McGovern instead of Lonie.

Kind of would have left not such a bitter taste in the mouth.

Good drafting? Look at Bulldogs.
2012. Jack Macrae , and Lachie Hunter vs Saints.Nat Wright..who, 3 years later got 15 disposals in one of his 5 games, Hunter had 28 in an elimination.
2013. Bontempelli vs Billings. Yep as usual we took the slow burn.
2014: McLean, Dale , and Daniel. ....oh yeah, and Tom Boyd. ....we got Paddy, who lasted as long as Boyd, but missed out the fun part.

Good draftiing over that short time delivered them a flag.
My apologies but it always cracks me up when people do the revisionist review of drafts as if its an exact science.

If it was simple and straight forward 1st pick will always turn out the best player and pick 51 will be the 51st best player in the draft.

It isn't simple and it definitely isn't straight forward.
 
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