List Mgmt. 2019 Trade Thread - Part II

[The_Steadier]

The only thing underdone about Jake is his attitude. Very skilled, but displays poor body language and doesn't like playing any role that isn't the loose, intercept marking, spare defender.

Should be an excellent option up forward but isn't. Should be a handy back up ruckman, but isn't. Should be a genuine swingman, but.....well, you get the drift.

He was at his sulking, uncompetitive, non-threatening best. At both ends. I've never seen a big, well built bloke, play with as little physical aggression as Jake.

His efforts in the last quarter were woeful. I know he's coming back from injury, and I've defended him in another thread recently, but he lost plenty of demerit points today

Lucky he's still got his licence to play in his favourite position. Really poor today. Especially in the key moments. Showing aggression and a good attitude doesn't require talent, nor form.

Unless he can prove he can play other roles other than the softest on the ground, let him go. He has no physical presence for a big bloke. He was pathetic today, as he has been for 7 of his last 8 quarters.

I get the feeling he has come back early to shore up his chances of getting a contract extension. Has always struck me as talented but selfish. Could be worth a late first rounder or a straight swap for Bing and some sweeteners. Do that in a heartbeat.

I've had plenty to say about the benefits of trading jake- but he isn't as bad as all that.

He just needs to get back to full fitness AND play in his preferred spot everyweek. (as you correctly identify- loose intercept wall across half back- ala mcgovern or hurley.)

My rationale for trading jake for a gun mid has never been because he's no good.

As I said last week- I just think it makes sense to leave the door open to trading him IF he is staring down the barrel of being played out of position often because battle has shown himself to be equally adept as a tall, loose defender across half back.

Equally- I would be leaving the door open to potentially trading battle for a gun mid for the same reason.

I think we have 2 mcgovern level, elite loose defenders on our list who can't reach those elite levels playing elsewhere.
And no team can play 2 loose, tall defenders at once, no matter how good they are.

(Maybe battle can be elite elsewhere- up fwd? Wing?
But, that's beside the main point that the current 'job sharing' at chb with jake seems to make them both worse and doesn't work).

Bottom line is- if jake isn't playing at chb (where he has played every single good game of his career), we aren't getting the best out of him- and that seems wasteful.

 

[bennymc7]

Our talls were extremely disappointing yesterday but well performed all year...

I'm expecting Clark to move into the middle next year in Dunstans position to be honest as primary ball winner, I think Steele and Dunny are duking it out for the one position..

We need flanks and outsiders i think. Hill and Martin top 2 targets.

Phase out Sinclair, Acres, Newnes etc.. Or at least force them to massively lift their outputs to warrant selection.

 

[Mowman]

Our talls were extremely disappointing yesterday but well performed all year...

I'm expecting Clark to move into the middle next year in Dunstans position to be honest as primary ball winner, I think Steele and Dunny are duking it out for the one position..

We need flanks and outsiders i think. Hill and Martin top 2 targets.

Phase out Sinclair, Acres, Newnes etc.. Or at least force them to massively lift their outputs to warrant selection.

couldn't give me 3 Dunstans for 1 Steele

IMO phase Dunstan out with the others will never be a top 4 side with plodders like Sinclair Dunstan ect

 

[The_Steadier]

Our talls were extremely disappointing yesterday but well performed all year...

I'm expecting Clark to move into the middle next year in Dunstans position to be honest as primary ball winner, I think Steele and Dunny are duking it out for the one position..

We need flanks and outsiders i think. Hill and Martin top 2 targets.

Phase out Sinclair, Acres, Newnes etc.. Or at least force them to massively lift their outputs to warrant selection.

Martin doesn't offer anything different to sinclair.
The solution to phasing out sincs isn't to bring his clone in.

Both have equal prospects to improve too- ie sincs has just as much 'potential' in him as martin does at this point.

 

[triggering bro]

Martin doesn't offer anything different to sinclair.
The solution to phasing out sincs isn't to bring his clone in.

Both have equal prospects to improve too- ie sincs has just as much 'potential' in him as martin does at this point.

Not to deliberately bring up old stuff but since when has Sinclair kicked 4 goals on 4 occasions & 3 goals on 6 occasions? Martin is having a down year which could be attributed to ‘checking out’ amongst other things. He is light years ahead of Sinclair who has never kicked more than 2 goals.

AFL Tables - Jack Martin - Stats - Statistics

afltables.com

 

[Impatient Saint]

Martin doesn't offer anything different to sinclair.
The solution to phasing out sincs isn't to bring his clone in.

Both have equal prospects to improve too- ie sincs has just as much 'potential' in him as martin does at this point.

At least Martin is reliable in front of goal - Sinclair in front of goal is a head case.

 

[Mowman]

Brandon Ellis ?
Does use the ball well

 

[Dard Ball Get]

Get Martin & Hill

The speed on display - and goals as a result of, in the WCE & Tigs game is testament to this

 

[bennymc7]

Martin doesn't offer anything different to sinclair.
The solution to phasing out sincs isn't to bring his clone in.

Both have equal prospects to improve too- ie sincs has just as much 'potential' in him as martin does at this point.

Gotta disagree on this one.. Martin a far far superior talent to Sinclair, literally in every facet of the game and it isn't close

 

[The_Steadier]

Not to deliberately bring up old stuff but since when has Sinclair kicked 4 goals on 4 occasions & 3 goals on 6 occasions? Martin is having a down year which could be attributed to ‘checking out’ amongst other things. He is light years ahead of Sinclair who has never kicked more than 2 goals.

AFL Tables - Jack Martin - Stats - Statistics

afltables.com

So we'd be bringing in martin not as a mid, but as a small fwd?
Now I REALLY don't want him.

Sincs is a fail to date because he's not a midfielder and we need him to be.

Likewise martin is not a midfielder, i'm not terribly interested in his goalkicking as a small forward.

The club have brought in a host of small fwds- lonie, parker, long, young, etc etc- if we are bringing in martin to replace a small fwd- that's a different conversation.

We're not losing games of football because small fwds like sinclair aren't kicking enough goals.
We're losing games of football because we have a million guys who are neither forwards, nor midfielders.
Adding another one in martin will get us, best case a fractional improvement.

We've been a bottom 4 team for the last 2 years and no finals for nearly a decade.
Fractional improvements should be priority 1 million.

 

[The_Steadier]

Not to deliberately bring up old stuff but since when has Sinclair kicked 4 goals on 4 occasions & 3 goals on 6 occasions? Martin is having a down year which could be attributed to ‘checking out’ amongst other things. He is light years ahead of Sinclair who has never kicked more than 2 goals.

AFL Tables - Jack Martin - Stats - Statistics

afltables.com

Ok sure- lets look at the stats- they will show that jack martin is light years ahead of sincs wont they?

Jack Sinclair and Jack Martin AFL Stats Comparison

Jack Sinclair and Jack Martin AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

Grass is always greener

 

[triggering bro]

So we'd be bringing in martin not as a mid, but as a small fwd?
Now I REALLY don't want him.

Sincs is a fail to date because he's not a midfielder and we need him to be.

Likewise martin is not a midfielder, i'm not terribly interested in his goalkicking as a small forward.

The club have brought in a host of small fwds- lonie, parker, long, young, etc etc- if we are bringing in martin to replace a small fwd- that's a different conversation.

We're not losing games of football because small fwds like sinclair aren't kicking enough goals.
We're losing games of football because we have a million guys who are neither forwards, nor midfielders.
Adding another one in martin will get us, best case a fractional improvement.

We've been a bottom 4 team for the last 2 years and no finals for nearly a decade.
Fractional improvements should be priority 1 million.

You’d play Martin as a goal kicking winger / flanker. Are you watching the Tigers vs Eagles match? I don’t think the need for pace & skill on the outside has ever been so evident. We actually don’t have an issue winning the footy & clearances & getting it inside 50. It’s the inability to create on the outside & defend on the outside which is killing us.

 

[The_Steadier]

You’d play Martin as a goal kicking winger / flanker. Are you watching the Tigers vs Eagles match? I don’t think the need for pace & skill on the outside has ever been so evident. We actually don’t have an issue winning the footy & clearances & getting it inside 50. It’s the inability to create on the outside & defend on the outside which is killing us.

Great.
We swap sinclair with martin at half forward and get on average an extra 0.3 more goals per game.

We're still bottom 4.

 

[triggering bro]

Ok sure- lets look at the stats- they will show that jack martin is light years ahead of sincs wont they?

Jack Sinclair and Jack Martin AFL Stats Comparison

Jack Sinclair and Jack Martin AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

Grass is always greener

What it shows is that Martin is incredibly inconsistent & has been rotting away in the graveyard on the Gold Coast. Martin’s best has & is far better than Sinclair. As I’ve mentioned, Sinclair has never kicked more than 2 goals & Martin has kicked 4 on 4 occasions & 3 on 6 occasions. Don’t you want to improve the 22? Because that’s what Martin does & on the back of a poor season he will never be cheaper.

 

[The_Steadier]

What it shows is that Martin is incredibly inconsistent & has been rotting away in the graveyard on the Gold Coast. Martin’s best has & is far better than Sinclair. As I’ve mentioned, Sinclair has never kicked more than 2 goals & Martin has kicked 4 on 4 occasions & 3 on 6 occasions. Don’t you want to improve the 22? Because that’s what Martin does & on the back of a poor season he will never be cheaper.

Opportunity cost.
Our salary cap advantage will vanish mighty quick overpaying the likes of martin and tomlinson to come to give us, at best, fractional improvements in our best 22.

The football equivalent of filling up on bread rolls at an all you can eat buffett.

Just because a move improves your best 22, doesn't make it instantly one worth making.
Signing up max gawn would improve our best 22- doesn't mean it would be a good idea to do it.

The club has to this point resisted the temptation to sign these fools gold b grade targets and remained patient, waiting for targets which will significantly improve us (jake, steele, hanners).
I hope that continues.

 

[lewdogs]

I think we're too late to the party for Martin. He's obviously gone but we haven't been in the conversation.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

Because that’s what Martin does & on the back of a poor season he will never be cheaper.

 

[Impatient Saint]

Opportunity cost.
Our salary cap advantage will vanish mighty quick overpaying the likes of martin and tomlinson to come to give us, at best, fractional improvements in our best 22.

The football equivalent of filling up on bread rolls at an all you can eat buffett.

Just because a move improves your best 22, doesn't make it instantly one worth making.
Signing up max gawn would improve our best 22- doesn't mean it would be a good idea to do it.

The club has to this point resisted the temptation to sign these fools gold b grade targets and remained patient, waiting for targets which will significantly improve us (jake, steele, hanners).
I hope that continues.

Be realistic who would you have us recruiting? I dont know whether you know but we have to spend 95% of our salary cap every season? History has shown we are not going to attract top end talent, so why not target players that improve our list incrementally and hope we can draft some diamonds. IMO in the right environment Martin could be as good as Edwards from Richmond and thats a big win. Plus he has the speed we are screaming for, so I dont know why you consistently disagree with people suggesting trades to improve our list?

 

[gringo2011]

Bruce yesterday- disappointing.

He was getting held by Casboult and not getting frees.

 

[Premium]

couldn't give me 3 Dunstans for 1 Steele

IMO phase Dunstan out with the others will never be a top 4 side with plodders like Sinclair Dunstan ect

totally agree

 

[Premium]

Broadcaster Hamish McLachlan says his former business partner and sought-after free agent Stephen Coniglio’s choice is down to two clubs — and Carlton isn’t one.

Saints and Hawks

it's happening

 

[BrutThough]

Broadcaster Hamish McLachlan says his former business partner and sought-after free agent Stephen Coniglio’s choice is down to two clubs — and Carlton isn’t one.

Saints and Hawks

it's happening

GWS and hawthorn

 

[The_Steadier]

Be realistic who would you have us recruiting? I dont know whether you know but we have to spend 95% of our salary cap every season? History has shown we are not going to attract top end talent, so why not target players that improve our list incrementally and hope we can draft some diamonds. IMO in the right environment Martin could be as good as Edwards from Richmond and thats a big win. Plus he has the speed we are screaming for, so I dont know why you consistently disagree with people suggesting trades to improve our list?

Simple- trading for the sake of trading is dumb.

If we are faced with a choice of:
A. Trading in B-C graders and trading out existing B-C graders or
B. Doing nothing.

... as a bottom 4 side who hasn't seen a final in 8 years, we are better off doing nothing.

Those moves are merely shifting deckchairs on the titanic.

 

[Mowman]

Simple- trading for the sake of trading is dumb.

If we are faced with a choice of:
A. Trading in B-C graders and trading out existing B-C graders or
B. Doing nothing.

... as a bottom 4 side who hasn't seen a final in 8 years, we are better off doing nothing.

Those moves are merely shifting deckchairs on the titanic.

I think we have more C & D graders than B & C graders , but agree what we trade in has to be an improvement on what we get rid off

 

[gringo2011]

Get Martin & Hill

We couldn't use both and Billings we would look more outside that Essendon.