List Mgmt. 2020 Draft and Trade Hypotheticals

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alex4445

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Sep 20, 2006
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Wollongong
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With the reduction in list spaces I feel the AFL need to relax the rules around retirements/delistings. I think clubs need to have the flexibility to delist players with 1+ years left on their contracts and have the remaining payout within the salary cap but without a list spot taken up.
Kennedy and Naismith being the 2 examples for us. Now I am not saying we should try and retire Kennedy as I think he still has value leading the young players but Naismith just isn't going to come good, he should get paid out the remainder of his contract but clubs without many ooc players shouldnt be punished for an unforeseeable pandemic.
 

dazedjosh

Team Captain
Aug 13, 2020
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The point is to make sure that we do no have a deficit going into 2021. If we do have a deficit, that deficit is taken out of our first round 2021 pick, which means we could go from pick 4 to something like pick 7, which would not be great.
I generally agree with you on this one, I'm not a huge fan of trading out of future drafts, especially the 1st round, and taking a deficit is essentially the same thing. If we were to trade out, then I'd rather do it when we have a team that looks like it is a genuine contender and we're looking for the final piece.

At the moment we're a rebuilding team showing some promise, for me, that's not the time to be avoiding the draft. Especially when this draft is supposed to be one of the weaker overall drafts of recent years and next years draft is supposed to be stronger and deeper. I wouldn't be trading out of 2021 unless it was the second rounder to get points for this year, and even then that's not my preferred path.

I think we have a lot of holes in our list, and that pick 4 can land us multiple players in the 20-23 age bracket this year via trade, while still landing Gulden and Campbell along with a late 1st this year, without losing our 1st or 2nd next year.

It should also be noted that Buddy's contract comes off the books in 2022, which is also a killer FA class, when we will have a sh*t ton of cap space thanks to us banking the cap space we have as I'm pretty sure we're running close to 95% of the cap thanks to the retirements of Jack, McVeigh, Grundy, Smith, Kennedy next year or this year, possibly Sinclair, and trading out Rohan and Hanners. We will be able to hit the '22 FA/Trade period with a well developed young core of guns coming into or having just entered their primes, and a ton of cap space. I wouldn't be trading out of any draft before then.
 

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caesar88

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 26, 2016
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I dont agree with your last sentence. But i do agree with your intent. few balls in the air at this time. Buddyis drawing 1.5M next year. Daniher could be coming in. we dont have today $. i reckon next year, depending on what happens this year, will determine who we chase.
If we can't afford any real big fish, which I agree is a very real possibility, try and get some smaller ones. I think they'd be more beneficial than just adding 18 year olds every year. At some point we have to decide that we like the players we've got and we will go forward with them.
 

Crust

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Jun 9, 2016
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Draft the best available talent and trade for necessity.
We need a ruckman.
I assume we are talking to Preuss but we will have to trade with Melbourne for him, if indeed he wants to come.
Trade picks or players?
There will be a heap of players cut due to smaller list sizes so will the Dees want a player? Who do we have with currency that we are happy to offload? Not many I'd suggest.
That leaves a pick - 3rd round? But we need all our points to get a gun at pick 4 or whatever, and then match for Campbell.
That then means that we may not have the points to get Gulden.
We'd have to trade a future 3rd rounder I suppose. Melbourne may be interested in that, given this year's draft is meant to be compromised.
But whatever happens our number one trading priority is a ruckman.
 

caesar88

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Apr 26, 2016
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For your pleasure!:tearsofjoy:
Essendon, like North Melbourne and Hawthorn before them, misjudged the state of their list when they went on their trading bonanza of Saad, Shiel, Smith, Stringer, Townshend etc.

It's not that those players haven't been valuable to them. Smith when he's played has been just about their best player over the period since he got to the Bombers, Saad is a key component of their game-plan, Shiel has been one of their best mids this year, and Stringer and Townshend are both in the top five of their goal-kicking this year. Just as Mitchell, Wingard, O'Meara etc have undoubtedly been valuable to the Hawks, and Polec, Higgins, Hall etc have been valuable to North.

But they've essentially all been rendered pretty ineffective trades because the teams around those recruits are effing sh*t. Giving away high draft picks and the chance to get plenty of good young talent on the list is fine if you already have good talent on the list that the recruits will compliment. All three teams obviously missed that memo.
 

HighReeve

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Sep 27, 2003
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Essendon, like North Melbourne and Hawthorn before them, misjudged the state of their list when they went on their trading bonanza of Saad, Shiel, Smith, Stringer, Townshend etc.

It's not that those players haven't been valuable to them. Smith when he's played has been just about their best player over the period since he got to the Bombers, Saad is a key component of their game-plan, Shiel has been one of their best mids this year, and Stringer and Townshend are both in the top five of their goal-kicking this year. Just as Mitchell, Wingard, O'Meara etc have undoubtedly been valuable to the Hawks, and Polec, Higgins, Hall etc have been valuable to North.

But they've essentially all been rendered pretty ineffective trades because the teams around those recruits are effing sh*t. Giving away high draft picks and the chance to get plenty of good young talent on the list is fine if you already have good talent on the list that the recruits will compliment. All three teams obviously missed that memo.
Well, that doesn't apply to North
giving away high draft picks

The trade for Polec wasn't great, but it was one pick not picks plural.
Higgins was five years ago and a free agent. Hall was for nothing.

They had Thomas as an academy selection anyway
 

Tedeski

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Oct 2, 2006
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Essendon, like North Melbourne and Hawthorn before them, misjudged the state of their list when they went on their trading bonanza of Saad, Shiel, Smith, Stringer, Townshend etc.

It's not that those players haven't been valuable to them. Smith when he's played has been just about their best player over the period since he got to the Bombers, Saad is a key component of their game-plan, Shiel has been one of their best mids this year, and Stringer and Townshend are both in the top five of their goal-kicking this year. Just as Mitchell, Wingard, O'Meara etc have undoubtedly been valuable to the Hawks, and Polec, Higgins, Hall etc have been valuable to North.

But they've essentially all been rendered pretty ineffective trades because the teams around those recruits are effing sh*t. Giving away high draft picks and the chance to get plenty of good young talent on the list is fine if you already have good talent on the list that the recruits will compliment. All three teams obviously missed that memo.

These Vic clubs get selfish & have a bigger field of "go home factor" or "disgruntled" players to choose from so they get lazy when it comes to the personality of the said player who needs to fit their brand. Player welfare is also not as big a consideration because one stuffs up & another 5 are wanting to go to their club because of the big game factor they so desperately are chasing which actually explains why many of these clubs fail when bringing too many of these type of players in. No ticker. It's more about these players getting something out of their destination club, rather than contributing themselves to the values of that club & perhaps building their own culture together.
It's just a bunch of egos being put together with the hope they will gel.
Clubs like the Swans & Brisbane have always had to work hard on such things. Personality is a key factor. Can they contribute real leadership as they grow into a well respected player/team mate/idol.

I like what the Lions have done & I believe after hearing what Paps had to say yesterday about Horse,. I really like what we are building.
 

Crust

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Just had a look at the Essendon Board, specifically re Dodoro.
They want him gone, fair enough. They also want Dalrymple.

One said that Dalrymple "has been furloughed. Is substitute teaching at the moment"

Is that right?
 

dazedjosh

Team Captain
Aug 13, 2020
476
698
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Just had a look at the Essendon Board, specifically re Dodoro.
They want him gone, fair enough. They also want Dalrymple.

One said that Dalrymple "has been furloughed. Is substitute teaching at the moment"

Is that right?
EDIT 2 - I stand corrected
I haven't heard anything of the sort and would be very surprised if the Swans had done that. Sounds like the Essendon board is just making stuff up. Yesterday on the Blues board somebody was saying that Paps saying he wanted to stay was all a ploy to actually come to Carlton without any fanfare and he still wanted to leave. This is after all the articles and instagram stories.

I suspect both rumours are standard bigfooty nonsense.
If we need to trim the fat in our footy department, I'd imagine Dalrymple and Beatson are untouchable and there are quite a few others that would go before them.


EDIT - Going through the Swans staff listing looking for some news like that, I discovered that Leo Barry is on our board. I didn't know that. - https://www.sydneyswans.com.au/club/our-people/board
 

Crust

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Looks like it is:


"Simon Dalrymple, one of the highest-rated AFL club recruiters in the country, is relief teaching in Melbourne’s suburbs.

He is working three to five days a week, on call, at a school with a high number of students still attending classes during lockdown.

Dalrymple is set to resume recruiting duties when junior football and the pathway programs resume, but it is a stark example of how the COVID-19 crisis has upturned footy as we know it."

Looks like he is locked in to us. I'd hate it if the Bombers got him.
 

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Crust

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I haven't heard anything of the sort and would be very surprised if the Swans had done that. Sounds like the Essendon board is just making stuff up. Yesterday on the Blues board somebody was saying that Paps saying he wanted to stay was all a ploy to actually come to Carlton without any fanfare and he still wanted to leave. This is after all the articles and instagram stories.

I suspect both rumours are standard bigfooty nonsense.
If we need to trim the fat in our footy department, I'd imagine Dalrymple and Beatson are untouchable and there are quite a few others that would go before them.

EDIT - Going through the Swans staff listing looking for some news like that, I discovered that Leo Barry is on our board. I didn't know that. - https://www.sydneyswans.com.au/club/our-people/board
Yes I saw the same while looking for news on Dalrymple.
Dennis Carroll has aged. But that's because I remember his raking kicks out of the half back line.
 

Bear31

Team Captain
Feb 15, 2020
365
394
AFL Club
Sydney
I dont agree with your last sentence. But i do agree with your intent. few balls in the air at this time. Buddyis drawing 1.5M next year. Daniher could be coming in. we dont have today $. i reckon next year, depending on what happens this year, will determine who we chase.
Imagine if Daniher goes PSD and Essendon outbid us. Would give Dan
With the reduction in list spaces I feel the AFL need to relax the rules around retirements/delistings. I think clubs need to have the flexibility to delist players with 1+ years left on their contracts and have the remaining payout within the salary cap but without a list spot taken up.
Kennedy and Naismith being the 2 examples for us. Now I am not saying we should try and retire Kennedy as I think he still has value leading the young players but Naismith just isn't going to come good, he should get paid out the remainder of his contract but clubs without many ooc players shouldnt be punished for an unforeseeable pandemic.
The AFL being the AFL we know will reduce lists this year by an amount that all clubs could abise with given the contracts they have with players in place. The AFL are not prone to introducing rules that hurt clubs that abide by their rules.
 

dazedjosh

Team Captain
Aug 13, 2020
476
698
AFL Club
Sydney
I dont agree with your last sentence. But i do agree with your intent. few balls in the air at this time. Buddyis drawing 1.5M next year. Daniher could be coming in. we dont have today $. i reckon next year, depending on what happens this year, will determine who we chase.
Wasn't it said last year that we have a fair bit of cap space?

In the last couple of years McVeigh, Jack, Grundy, Smith, Hannebery, and Rohan have all left. That would free up a fair bit of cap space. The first four would have been on less than at their peak but they wouldn't have been on peanuts, and part of the reason why Hanners and Rohan left so cheaply was because we didn't want to contribute to their salaries at St Kilda and Geelong respectively.
Considering we've brought in guys like Lewis Taylor and Sam Gray have been brought in I'd be willing to bet that we're running close to the 95% cap limit and banking the difference for a crack at the big FA classes coming up.
 

BloodySwan

Premiership Player
Oct 2, 2016
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Looks like it is:


"Simon Dalrymple, one of the highest-rated AFL club recruiters in the country, is relief teaching in Melbourne’s suburbs.

He is working three to five days a week, on call, at a school with a high number of students still attending classes during lockdown.

Dalrymple is set to resume recruiting duties when junior football and the pathway programs resume, but it is a stark example of how the COVID-19 crisis has upturned footy as we know it."

Looks like he is locked in to us. I'd hate it if the Bombers got him.
List manager is a promotion for Dalrymple. Could very well lose him
 

Kapers

Club Legend
Sep 25, 2019
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Unless there are some really quality players who are a) on the market, and b) willing to move to Sydney, there is nothing to be gained from splitting pick 4. IMO there is only half a dozen elite junior prospects in this year's draft. Having two picks later in the first round won't net us any of those prospects.

The ideal outcome is:
Pick 4 - Phillips/Hollands/Thilthorpe/McDonald/Macrae OR an established gun midfielder, key forward or ruck.

Pick 7/8 - Match bid on Campbell. This is where I think he will go, but as I've said all along, I wouldn't be shocked if he went earlier. Being the best user of the footy in the entire draft pool is not a minor factor.

Pick somewhere in the 20s/low 30s - Match bid on Gulden OR use later picks to trade in a ruck/midfield depth, even if at the expense of Gulden.
What I'm saying is that if we want to trade hard and get some good talent in we will probably split 4. Maybe get a few late first rounds and trade using those.
Just can't see a scenario where we manage to trade in any decent targets AND get pick 4 Campbell and Gulden.
Maybe we trade out a lot of our picks grab Campbell and say we ain't trying for Gulden.
I think we will prioritise Gulden quite a bit.
 

Bear31

Team Captain
Feb 15, 2020
365
394
AFL Club
Sydney
Wasn't it said last year that we have a fair bit of cap space?

In the last couple of years McVeigh, Jack, Grundy, Smith, Hannebery, and Rohan have all left. That would free up a fair bit of cap space. The first four would have been on less than at their peak but they wouldn't have been on peanuts, and part of the reason why Hanners and Rohan left so cheaply was because we didn't want to contribute to their salaries at St Kilda and Geelong respectively.
Considering we've brought in guys like Lewis Taylor and Sam Gray have been brought in I'd be willing to bet that we're running close to the 95% cap limit and banking the difference for a crack at the big FA classes coming up.
Iget where you are coming from. Buddy salary 1.5m.
:thumbsu: 100%

I grew up in Sydney and always liked the Swans.

Paul Kelly made me LOVE the swans. Will always be my favourite player.
I loved Mickey O. My favourite player all time. My sister had a dinner party with him a few years ago. Her hubby has coached Rugby Union under 21 sides, school sides, Austalian school boy sides etc. She is right into Rugby Union. Her eldest, my nephew is in the Swans academy. She asked him whether he had played AFL. He said he had played a few games. When she got home she googled him and almost died of embarrassment.
Essendon, like North Melbourne and Hawthorn before them, misjudged the state of their list when they went on their trading bonanza of Saad, Shiel, Smith, Stringer, Townshend etc.

It's not that those players haven't been valuable to them. Smith when he's played has been just about their best player over the period since he got to the Bombers, Saad is a key component of their game-plan, Shiel has been one of their best mids this year, and Stringer and Townshend are both in the top five of their goal-kicking this year. Just as Mitchell, Wingard, O'Meara etc have undoubtedly been valuable to the Hawks, and Polec, Higgins, Hall etc have been valuable to North.

But they've essentially all been rendered pretty ineffective trades because the teams around those recruits are effing sh*t. Giving away high draft picks and the chance to get plenty of good young talent on the list is fine if you already have good talent on the list that the recruits will compliment. All three teams obviously missed that memo.
I agree
 

Kapers

Club Legend
Sep 25, 2019
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List manager is a promotion for Dalrymple. Could very well lose him
Essendon though???
Also he might enjoy his role. He might not want to be a list manager. He might enjoy just watching the under agers and finding the best talent.
Obviously more would go into it, but I know a few that would really enjoy following draft prospects with little more responsibility than finding the best.
 

Bear31

Team Captain
Feb 15, 2020
365
394
AFL Club
Sydney
What I'm saying is that if we want to trade hard and get some good talent in we will probably split 4. Maybe get a few late first rounds and trade using those.
Just can't see a scenario where we manage to trade in any decent targets AND get pick 4 Campbell and Gulden.
Maybe we trade out a lot of our picks grab Campbell and say we ain't trying for Gulden.
I think we will prioritise Gulden quite a bit.
No split. While we are down we take the best available. When do we ever get top 5
 

caesar88

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Apr 26, 2016
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For those who rate Chris Doerre (I don't), saw a tweet from him today. Reckons Phillips would be the best fit for us.
 

caesar88

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 26, 2016
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Well, that doesn't apply to North
giving away high draft picks

The trade for Polec wasn't great, but it was one pick not picks plural.
Higgins was five years ago and a free agent. Hall was for nothing.

They had Thomas as an academy selection anyway
That's a fair point actually. They didn't have to give up a lot.

But they still misjudged their list. It was full of average players and kids who hadn't come on, but they loaded up on recruits. If you don't have that foundation of talent on the list, no amount of traded in players will be able to elevate you into contention.

Richmond and Brisbane are two recent examples of clubs who had the existing talent on their lists, and so were better able to capitalise on their big recruits.
 

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