List Mgmt. 2020 Draft and Trade Hypotheticals

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caesar88

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Apr 26, 2016
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This is my thought. Right now it feels like our stock is:
-Naismith (perennially injured)
-Sinclair (Appears on his last leg)

Would be keen to just get 3 mature rucks from the state leagues and pray 1 works out.

Scott Jones, Jeremy Goddard, both raking good numbers in the WAFL. Andre Parrella averaging 37 hitouts in the SANFL and is 22 years young

At worst they perform the same as what we've currently got, right?
If your logic is basically force Naismith and Sinclair into retirement (which I doubt will happen), then sure, pick up a few mature rucks from the state leagues and see how they go. (Although this mentality has not paid dividends as of yet where Knoll is concerned.)

But if we persist with Naismith and Sinclair on the list, and already have limited list spots, I'm just not sure there's room to fit a bounty of ruck options in the hopes that one of them works out.
 

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BloodySwan

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If your logic is basically force Naismith and Sinclair into retirement (which I doubt will happen), then sure, pick up a few mature rucks from the state leagues and see how they go. (Although this mentality has not paid dividends as of yet where Knoll is concerned.)

But if we persist with Naismith and Sinclair on the list, and already have limited list spots, I'm just not sure there's room to fit a bounty of ruck options in the hopes that one of them works out.
No, drop Knoll, Amartey & McLean. Keep Naismith & Sinclair as they are the only rucks we have
 

caesar88

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No, drop Knoll, Amartey & McLean. Keep Naismith & Sinclair as they are the only rucks we have
So put our faith in the guy we know won't be playing for another year (by which point he'll be 29/30), and the guy who will be 31 next year but is playing like a 41 year old? And then the rest are just WAFL, SANFL and VFL discards in the Knoll vein? That just doesn't sound reliable to me.
 

strauchanie59

BigFooty Mitchy Morton
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We should be going after graham imo
Has been serviceable, at best, in a below strength Richmond midfield this season.

No Edwards, Caddy, Prestia for most of the season and Graham is averaging 14 touches and under 2 clearances a game, with just under 4 tackles.

It's a big no from me. If we wanted numbers like that, I'm sure we could re-draft Jordan Foote at the end of the year.
 

Crust

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It's difficult to say as we actually need to fire two draft picks towards each other and see what happens when they collide. The problem is that by observing them we are actually influencing the result.
But if we know where they are we don't know what direction they're moving, and if we know where they're going we don't know their position.
 

BloodySwan

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So put our faith in the guy we know won't be playing for another year (by which point he'll be 29/30), and the guy who will be 31 next year but is playing like a 41 year old? And then the rest are just WAFL, SANFL and VFL discards in the Knoll vein? That just doesn't sound reliable to me.
As you said, the base is low. Do we expect to be in any worse a position than we are today if we just get some state leaguers?
 

caesar88

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Has been serviceable, at best, in a below strength Richmond midfield this season.

No Edwards, Caddy, Prestia for most of the season and Graham is averaging 14 touches and under 2 clearances a game, with just under 4 tackles.

It's a big no from me. If we wanted numbers like that, I'm sure we could re-draft Jordan Foote at the end of the year.
So maybe he's just not the type to be the main man in the centre.

But doesn't mean he wouldn't be an asset for our midfield. IMO he's one of the best players in the comp not consistently getting games this year. Go back to the last three years and his best is clearly pretty good.
 

caesar88

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As you said, the base is low. Do we expect to be in any worse a position than we are today if we just get some state leaguers?
Yeah I kinda do. For starters we shouldn't be letting McLean go. But aside from that, I think we need a ruck who is on an AFL list that at the very least has some exposed form at the highest level. That's literally the only criteria. Taking a state league player as we did with Knoll is just a total stab in the dark.
 

strauchanie59

BigFooty Mitchy Morton
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So maybe he's just not the type to be the main man in the centre.

But doesn't mean he wouldn't be an asset for our midfield. IMO he's one of the best players in the comp not consistently getting games this year. Go back to the last three years and his best is clearly pretty good.
In his 50 games thus far he has:

Four or more clearances six times.
20 or more disposals seven times.
10+ contested possessions three times.

He has a mature body, as proven by some high tackling numbers throughout his AFL career, but will he ever be a high-volume or at least somewhat decent accumulator/extractor? Going off these numbers, I'm going to say no. He showed signs as a goalkicking midfielder in his first couple of years, but that has slowed down to just two goals this season.

Interestingly, looking at Ryan Clarke's (who is a year older and played 13 more games) numbers, they shape like this:

Four or more clearances four times.
26 or more disposals 10 times.
10+ contested possessions four times.

Clarke averages more disposals throughtout their respective careers while Graham averages more tackles. Is Graham better than what we already have? Not in my mind.

Our current inside midfield group consists of Parker, JPK, Hewett, Rowbottom and Clarke with Florent, Blakey, Stephens and McInerney on the outside. Those first three outside players have shown the ability to also win their own ball on the inside and start inside the centre while winning clearances. Heeney and Papley, you would think, would take bursts in the midfield in 2021, too.

You'll have to add in Campbell who we will add at the end of the year, while Gulden has shown the ability to play in the middle. And who knows, we could draft a Phillips/Hollands with our first pick. I am quietly bullish about our future midfield and I don't see Graham getting games over our current crop.
 

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BloodySwan

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Yeah I kinda do. For starters we shouldn't be letting McLean go. But aside from that, I think we need a ruck who is on an AFL list that at the very least has some exposed form at the highest level. That's literally the only criteria. Taking a state league player as we did with Knoll is just a total stab in the dark.
Knoll isn't playing - we can't get any worse
Horse would rather play Reid or Aliir in the ruck - we can't get any worse
Amartey showed nothing - we can't get any worse

With 3 state leaguers, if they don't make it they sit on our books for 1 season and we continue to play Reid & Aliir in the ruck when Sinckers & Naismith get injured?
 

caesar88

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In his 50 games thus far he has:

Four or more clearances six times.
20 or more disposals seven times.
10+ contested possessions three times.

He has a mature body, as proven by some high tackling numbers throughout his AFL career, but will he ever be a high-volume or at least somewhat decent accumulator/extractor? Going off these numbers, I'm going to say no. He showed signs as a goalkicking midfielder in his first couple of years, but that has slowed down to just two goals this season.

Interestingly, looking at Ryan Clarke's (who is a year older and played 13 more games) numbers, they shape like this:

Four or more clearances four times.
26 or more disposals 10 times.
10+ contested possessions four times.

Clarke averages more disposals throughtout their respective careers while Graham averages more tackles. Is Graham better than what we already have? Not in my mind.

Our current inside midfield group consists of Parker, JPK, Hewett, Rowbottom and Clarke with Florent, Blakey, Stephens and McInerney on the outside. Those first three outside players have shown the ability to also win their own ball on the inside and start inside the centre while winning clearances. Heeney and Papley, you would think, would take bursts in the midfield in 2021, too.

You'll have to add in Campbell who we will add at the end of the year, while Gulden has shown the ability to play in the middle. And who knows, we could draft a Phillips/Hollands with our first pick. I am quietly bullish about our future midfield and I don't see Graham getting games over our current crop.
If you are using stats to suggest Clarke is a better player than Graham that might just say all that needs to be said about stats.

I also think you have got our midfield mix wrong. JPK is 32, to even use him in an argument about our future midfield stocks is a bit pointless. Parker practically the same as a 28 year old who won't be part of our next flag.

Clarke doesn't play inside. He's never had more than 6 CBAs in a match this year, and that was only once against Port. He also averages only 6 contested possessions. He's only in the team for tagging purposes and Horse has shown that if there's no tagging role for him in a match, he is not in Horse's best 22 at all.

As for Florent, Blakey and Stephens, they are all TBDs at this point. Florent is lacking consistency, Blakey we don't actually know what he could become as a mid, and Stephens is only in his first year. This is not me writing any of them off, but I don't think any have shown enough yet to use in a case for our midfield stocks.

Heeney, Papley, Campbell and Gulden I don't think will ever see more than a few rotations in the midfield per game, and so to count them as midfield stocks is also pointless.

I never said Graham would be a world-beater, or that he'd edge any of our guys out (though I do think there's a good chance he would). Simply that he'd be an asset to our midfield to add to the young group we've got developing now given he is talented himself and has been part of a successful team.
 

strauchanie59

BigFooty Mitchy Morton
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If you are using stats to suggest Clarke is a better player than Graham that might just say all that needs to be said about stats.

I also think you have got our midfield mix wrong. JPK is 32, to even use him in an argument about our future midfield stocks is a bit pointless. Parker practically the same as a 28 year old who won't be part of our next flag.

Clarke doesn't play inside. He's never had more than 6 CBAs in a match this year, and that was only once against Port. He also averages only 6 contested possessions. He's only in the team for tagging purposes and Horse has shown that if there's no tagging role for him in a match, he is not in Horse's best 22 at all.

As for Florent, Blakey and Stephens, they are all TBDs at this point. Florent is lacking consistency, Blakey we don't actually know what he could become as a mid, and Stephens is only in his first year. This is not me writing any of them off, but I don't think any have shown enough yet to use in a case for our midfield stocks.

Heeney, Papley, Campbell and Gulden I don't think will ever see more than a few rotations in the midfield per game, and so to count them as midfield stocks is also pointless.

I never said Graham would be a world-beater, or that he'd edge any of our guys out (though I do think there's a good chance he would). Simply that he'd be an asset to our midfield to add to the young group we've got developing now given he is talented himself and has been part of a successful team.
If you read what I said, I said 'current', not future. And if we're gearing up for a 2023/24 shot at a flag, that has Parker still at 31/32 and probably, barring injury, still around.

Clarke is still a handy player to have within our midfield mix. Granted, his disposal is ordinary, but he gets in, has a crack and leaves it all out on the field. The amount of shiteee he cops on here is ridiculous.

I really believe Campbell can come in next year and be a decent contributor in the mids. Not quite Serong levels for Fremantle, however.

I'm not arguing that Graham would or wouldn't be a world beater. He's a decent role player for Richmond who has been dropped a couple of times this season. I just don't think he'd be more than depth for us.

I'd rather us go for players that fill pressing needs in the squad.
 

caesar88

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If you read what I said, I said 'current', not future. And if we're gearing up for a 2023/24 shot at a flag, that has Parker still at 31/32 and probably, barring injury, still around.

Clarke is still a handy player to have within our midfield mix. Granted, his disposal is ordinary, but he gets in, has a crack and leaves it all out on the field. The amount of shiteee he cops on here is ridiculous.

I really believe Campbell can come in next year and be a decent contributor in the mids.

I'm not arguing that Graham would or wouldn't be a world beater. He's a decent role player for Richmond who has been dropped a couple of times this season. I just don't think he'd be more than depth for us.

I'd rather us go for players that fill pressing needs in the squad.
I would be absolutely astounded if Parker is still in our midfield at 31/32.

I'd argue the midfield is a pressing need. The present midfield is rubbish, and we seem further than ever from knowing what our future midfield will look like. Nearly all of the young mids coming through have question marks over them at this stage.

But we might have to agree to disagree on the quality we have there both currently and in the future.
 

Dan87

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I'd argue the midfield is a pressing need. The present midfield is rubbish, and we seem further than ever from knowing what our future midfield will look like. Nearly all of the young mids coming through have question marks over them at this stage.
You love talking about the midfield. I'd love to see you actually argue and articulate this point beyond "I don't need stats I know what I'm looking at" and subjective hot takes. Look at a depth chart, look at our differentials, look at naismith in/out, look at jpk in/out, discuss them.

Please
 

strauchanie59

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I would be absolutely astounded if Parker is still in our midfield at 31/32.

I'd argue the midfield is a pressing need. The present midfield is rubbish, and we seem further than ever from knowing what our future midfield will look like. Nearly all of the young mids coming through have question marks over them at this stage.

But we might have to agree to disagree on the quality we have there both currently and in the future.
Because midfielders tend to drop off a cliff as soon as they hit 31/32, hey?
 

caesar88

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You love talking about the midfield. I'd love to see you actually argue and articulate this point beyond "I don't need stats I know what I'm looking at" and subjective hot takes. Look at a depth chart, look at our differentials, look at naismith in/out, look at jpk in/out, discuss them.

Please
That's all I ever do.

But if someone rates the players I don't rate, or has more faith in the players that I have reservations about, I'm not gonna bash them over the head to try and get them to change their views. It's their opinion, they're entitled to it, and in most cases I've found that having elaborate, lengthy debates usually ends with neither participants' minds being changed.

Not that I have to justify anything I post to you.
 

strauchanie59

BigFooty Mitchy Morton
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When was the last time any of our mids didn't drop off a cliff as soon as they hit 30, let alone 31/32?
JPK in 2018/2019 was 30/31 and he was still carrying our midfield and doing a good job of it. ROK was pretty bloody good in the mids when he turned 31/32.

Even looking around the AFL, David Mundy is still starring for Freo, Pendles, Higgins, Robbie Gray, Selwood and Boak are all 32+ and playing good football. No reason why Parker can't follow in their footsteps.
 

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