List Mgmt. 2020 Draft and Trade Hypotheticals

[Kummerspeck]

- we finished bottom 4 for the second
time in 2 seasons

Sorry, two times in 25 years in a competition structured to cycle teams to the bottom.

- if we have ruckmen why do we need to spend capital to bring a washed player into the side on a 3 year contract?

What exactly do you mean by 'We have no ruckmen'? You just answered a question with a question.

- The players we brought in are net negatives. We were a better side when they didn’t play, so I would say spend the picks elsewhere - either use them to trade up or roll them into future picks this season so we aren’t scrambling for points to match the academy players.

Okay, so last year we traded 48 for Taylor. How are we going to use 48 to trade up and to who? What about the year before? What would you have bundled 62 and 70 for to help us this year?

- no injuries just look at the games we have got out of buddy, Heeney, Reid etc. not to mention bringing back Rampe too early and him getting reinjured.

No injuries? I didn't say anything about there being no injuries. I asked for proof of mismanagement. I don't know why you included Heeney either. he's played 20+ games a year after his first season and the reason he didn't this year was because he dislocated his ankle which was called as season ending immediately.

and you call me vague . Had a fine year and we let him go for peanuts.

Pointing out that the stats don't back up your assertion isn't vague.

Most importantly you’ve dodged the question about what the club has done well. At two bottom four finishes in a row the burden of proof is well and truly on you.

Again, you misunderstand. I'm pointing out that you can't even formulate grounded arguments and in some cases just make stuff up in your criticisms.

 

[sataris]

3 year contract for a 29 year old whose a little bit better than Naismith?

This seems like a trade for the sake of making a trade.

The only legitimate reason I can think of is the salary cap floor.

 

[BloodySwan]

We need a ruck and to convince Hickey to move across country. 3yrs feels right

 

[RUNVS]

3 year contract for a 29 year old whose a little bit better than Naismith?

This seems like a trade for the sake of making a trade.

The only legitimate reason I can think of is the salary cap floor.

Naismith won't be playing in 2021, so we need a ruckman, any ruckman to replace him. Importantly Hickey does not have crappy knees.

 

[sataris]

Naismith won't be playing in 2021, so we need a ruckman, any ruckman to replace him. Importantly Hickey does not have crappy knees.

You could replace naismith with a step-ladder with a napkin on the middle step.

This trade is purely for salary reasons and Hickey is tall.

 

[RUNVS]

You could replace naismith with a step-ladder with a napkin on the middle step.

This trade is purely for salary reasons and Hickey is tall.

We also desperately need another ruckman, especially since Sinclair is not young and getting a bit more injury prone. Hickey is a stop gap measure, someone we can bring in and he can play a role for a few years while we try and look for better alternatives.

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

Most importantly you’ve dodged the question about what the club has done well. At two bottom four finishes in a row the burden of proof is well and truly on you.

Developed a fine young group of players who play for each other and the coach and despite an extensive injury list were able to see a difficult year out whilst remaining competitive against the top clubs.

 

[Banyo Bloods]

Hickey 29 for 1 year no worries, hickey for 3 years, desperate and embarrassing from the club.

No way were they going to extract him on a one year deal. I bet they explored every ruck option and found little interest in uprooting their life for a change of state. Desperate maybe but necessary not embarrassing. If it improves beyond Sinclair as number 1 option then we are a better side.

it’s really not that bad of a deal

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

Naismith won't be playing in 2021, so we need a ruckman, any ruckman to replace him. Importantly Hickey does not have crappy knees.

Why not?

 

[RUNVS]

Why not?

He did his ACL didn't he?

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

He did his ACL didn't he?

In June. Not last week.

 

[RUNVS]

In June. Not last week.

Yes, and we know from experience that Naismith takes more than 12 months to get over his ACL injuries, and given how often he has had them there is a real chance 4 matches after he returns he will do another one. We can't rely on Naismith to be there in 2021.

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

Yes, and we know from experience that Naismith takes more than 12 months to get over his ACL injuries, and given how often he has had them there is a real chance 4 matches after he returns he will do another one. We can't rely on Naismith to be there in 2021.

He’s had one ACL and had complications with recovery.

 

[Corpuscles]

In June. Not last week.

Reading the' tea leaves' I think you have identified the problem. (Reason for desperation)

Denied medical & rehab staff and club facilities . They were all locked up in interstate hub likely no contact with 'civilians; left behind.
Even Buddy in hub (not using club strengthening equip) so little company/companionship.
Barely pre season in 3 years nor any match fitness.

Clearly some blokes genetic makeup aren't suited to footy and especially worse if playing the most knee taxing role on the ground.

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

Reading the' tea leaves' I think you have identified the problem. (Reason for desperation)

Denied medical & rehab staff and club facilities . They were all locked up in interstate hub likely no contact with 'civilians; left behind.
Even Buddy in hub (not using club strengthening equip) so little company/companionship.
Barely pre season in 3 years nor any match fitness.

Clearly some blokes genetic makeup aren't suited to footy and especially worse if playing the most knee taxing role on the ground.

Im not sure desperate is the right word.

It seems to me Naismith is still considered the number 1 guy but won’t be available until June. Sinclair has at best only one year left in him. And is better as a number 2 in any event.

Ideal world, run with Hickey and Sinclair until June then Naismith and Sinclair into the second half of the year.

Hopefully, Naismith gets a good run and Hickey is backup. If not, we’ve bought 3 years to develop or find another.

 

[Corpuscles]

Im not sure desperate is the right word.

It seems to me Naismith is still considered the number 1 guy but won’t be available until June. Sinclair has at best only one year left in him. And is better as a number 2 in any event.

Ideal world, run with Hickey and Sinclair until June then Naismith and Sinclair into the second half of the year.

Hopefully, Naismith gets a good run and Hickey is backup. If not, we’ve bought 3 years to develop or find another.

The media blurb with the Hickey stuff also states they (Swans) do not expect Naismith at all in 2021.
It would be crazy to plan (count ) on mid /late season return without any participation pre season training
Horse last presser in season indicates he wants hopes for Naismith back at some time.

Whatever... they know ... I don't
I will trust them but I am wary of the top up and import older left overs strategy.
Me I would prefer to find anyone younger who has a hope of developing further - but they may not exist or cost too much?

 

[LMFC]

The swans showed moments of ball movement and transition that showcased what our young team are capable of.
Adding Hickey isn’t the end of the world. In 2019 when he lead WC Ruck he statistically had a similar year to Lycett who most would consider (I assume) better than serviceable.
Hickey as Another big option and presence on the ground will likely benefit other players (directly and indirectly) more than just his own impact.
If we were chasing Hickey while ignoring better ruck options I would be more worried.

 

[Punts]

3 year deal for a 30 year old ruck that is imo an absolute dud , what a joke

 

[S120]

When our interest in Hickey was first floated, I was going to be OK with it on the basis that he wasn't the only ruck we recruited, and I maintain that - I'll have no problem with recruiting Hickey if we get a younger guy to develop. A Lloyd Meek from Freo who I've thought looks promising or someone else from around the country in the 20-23 age bracket. So I'm hoping for that.

With respect to Hickey specifically, the 3 years (if it's indeed the case - it's hardly been reported so far all things considered) is a reflection of trying to recruit a guy on the other side of the country who already has a contract for next year in addition to our side being bottom 4. That's just business. Secondly, Hickey is genuinely not as bad as being made out here. He's not contending for an All-Australian selection but if you look at his performance over the last few years and over his career, he compares pretty well with guys like Nankervis, Lycett, Bellchambers and the like. So he's never been one of the best rucks in the league but that also isn't what we're targeting. We just badly need some senior-calibre depth and that's what Hickey is. He barely got a game this year with WCE for good reason too - he was playing behind the All-Australian ruckman in a shortened-quarter season which played to Naitanui's advantage of being a burst player who doesn't generally play full regular-season quarters.

And he's really not that bad - he looks ungainly but from 2016-2019, these were certainly not hopeless average numbers per game:

13 disposals
3 marks
3 tackles
25 HO's
4 clearances

It sounds as if we targeted other rucks (Ladhams, Lycett, Nankervis) and had no luck so in a shallow pool, we've done what we can. We're desperate for some senior-calibre depth but I don't think it's an outrageous decision in context. I just hope we bring in another young guy to have in development - I don't buy Amartey as a senior-calibre guy one day personally.

 

[Corpuscles]

The swans showed moments of ball movement and transition that showcased what our young team are capable of.
Adding Hickey isn’t the end of the world. In 2019 when he lead WC Ruck he statistically had a similar year to Lycett who most would consider (I assume) better than serviceable.
Hickey as Another big option and presence on the ground will likely benefit other players (directly and indirectly) more than just his own impact.
If we were chasing Hickey while ignoring better ruck options I would be more worried.

Great first post - sincerely

I am usually very positive and supportive.

Swans seem to have have had a very long term strategy of turning forwards into ruckman and not going hard at draft for young ones
eg right back to Jason Ball

Jason Ball

Age

51

Ht

201cm

Wt

104kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.2

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

4.7

3star

HO

8.8

5star

No current season stats available

D

6.2

2star

K

3.4

2star

HB

2.8

3star

HO

4.2

5star

later Tippett etc
It surprises me with Dean Cox

Dean Cox

Age

42

Ht

203cm

Wt

107kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.9

4star

K

8.9

3star

HB

6.9

4star

M

5.3

5star

T

1.5

3star

G

0.6

4star

No current season stats available

D

13.0

4star

K

5.8

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.4

4star

G

0.0

1star

almost 2IC coach, Swans have not been able to make that a clear strength.

If it eventuates that it is Tom Hickey

31

Tom Hickey

Age

33

Ht

202cm

Wt

97kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.9

3star

K

5.0

2star

HB

6.9

4star

CL

2.8

4star

HO

19.1

5star

D

4.0

1star

K

1.5

1star

HB

2.5

2star

CL

1.0

3star

HO

7.0

5star

D

11.2

3star

K

4.2

2star

HB

7.0

5star

CL

0.4

3star

HO

8.6

5star

then I am cheering for him from the get go. I don't think he is a dud. But has had lots of injury
But if I am Hickey, then I want big bucks to move across the continent to end at 4th club in a strange more expensive city.

 

[SGBeach]

The media blurb with the Hickey stuff also states they (Swans) do not expect Naismith at all in 2021.
It would be crazy to plan (count ) on mid /late season return without any participation pre season training
Horse last presser in season indicates he wants hopes for Naismith back at some time.

Whatever... they know ... I don't
I will trust them but I am wary of the top up and import older left overs strategy.
Me I would prefer to find anyone younger who has a hope of developing further - but they may not exist or cost too much?

We know the Swans tried for Ladhams (long shot), Id bet a six pack we also asked about T DeKoning (a long shot). We know the Swans academy has targeted and got 2 x 20yo kids from other sports (basketball and rugby) who are 205cm and 208cm. Both are developing and one in particular is looking good. We can be certain that the Swans have done a truck load more work in the Ruck space than this.
The way I see it is.. Hickey / Sinkers will play Ruck 2021 and that's fine with me.. Hickey / Naismith in 2022/23, Im also fine with that.. 2023/24 and onwards when we're seriously challenging, the Swans will have a new Ruck that has been developed in our system - whether that be through the academy, drafted in 2020 or traded as a very young ruck from another club.
We are a developing team.

 

[Tedeski]

I do feel there is a bit of that. I don’t like my allegiance to the club being questioned because I question the club.

I want what’s best for the club, so want to ensure decision makers are held to account, and if something isn’t done well or there is a failing or an issue it needs to be raised so it can be learnt from.

Like don't give out 9 year contracts to a bloke who has already played 9 years at one club, just because he will be good for you club for maybe 4 or 5 years, only to be paid more money to sit out the game in his last few years then when he was playing his guts out.

Label people apologists by all means folks, but everyone on this board is an apologist depending on their own views, from what I've see on here in the last 14 years or so. I'm an apologist on many topics but on the topic above, which has single handedly affected our club so very positively in the early years, is also responsible for where & how we sit now. Something those in charge knew very well at the time would become a reality.

For my criticism of the club now I make NO APOLOGIES!

 

[Arrr]

I think that all you have to do is look at past dealing during trade periods to see that when it comes to the swans we like to get out business done on the down low.

How many times in the past have stories been floated of swans chasing this player or that player and it just turns out to be media personalities trying to get clicks.

Clearly we are after a ruck but we could be in talks with Stefan Martin

8

Stefan Martin

Age

37

Ht

198cm

Wt

99kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.4

4star

K

8.4

3star

HB

8.0

5star

CL

4.0

5star

HO

23.5

5star

D

6.4

1star

K

4.2

2star

HB

2.2

2star

CL

2.6

4star

HO

18.4

5star

D

11.6

3star

K

6.0

3star

HB

5.6

4star

HO

1.0

4star

while all this attention is on the eagles and Hickey or Aliir and port. We just don't know because that is how this club does business.

It sucks to be in the dark this time of year especially when you hear of other clubs being so active.

 

[dazedjosh]

Me I would prefer to find anyone younger who has a hope of developing further - but they may not exist or cost too much?

For sure, a good prospect would be preferred to Hickey, but I think you're right there aren't that many available this year. There are also a number of rucks coming out of contract next year, from OOC to RFA to UFA. Some are more gettable than others. I don't expect us to be in the box seat for Max Gawn

11

Max Gawn

Age

32

Ht

209cm

Wt

110kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.1

4star

K

7.4

3star

HB

6.7

4star

CL

2.8

4star

HO

35.3

5star

D

18.5

4star

K

11.5

4star

HB

7.0

4star

CL

3.5

4star

HO

29.2

5star

D

8.4

3star

K

3.6

2star

HB

4.8

4star

CL

1.0

3star

HO

15.6

5star

for example, but Sam Hayes is out of contract next year, if Port don't play him again, we could make a play for him.

Considering Naismith and Sinclair are both OOC next year and both have bodies that might struggle to go beyond next year, targeting another ruck next year to join Hickey and Amartey seems like a viable backup plan if we don't get a genuine number 1 prospect this year.

 

[Blacky]

Developed a fine young group of players who play for each other and the coach and despite an extensive injury list were able to see a difficult year out whilst remaining competitive against the top clubs.

So top 8 this year then? When does this fine group start bearing fruit?