List Mgmt. 2020 Draft (December 9) discussion thread

[dlanod]

Our currently owned picks:

24 - Blake Coleman
43 - Harry Sharp
48 - Henry Smith

Our currently owned 2021 picks:

1st (MEL), 1st (BRI), 3rd (WCE), 3rd (BRI), 4th (MEL), 4th (COL), 5th (BRI)

 

[pulpdriver]

I'm quite interested to see how our ruck recruit progresses, interesting choice given our recruiting and apparent needs. Surely we are already heavily into trading in a ruck next year.

We have to be but we've proven as a team that ruck dominance is no issue. Oscar battled but got dominated against Gawn and yet we walked the ball out like a training drill. I thought we might use that last spot for a mature ruck or leave it open for one for the mid season draft but we clearly don't feel we need it. Hopefully OMac+ Daniher/McStay means we don't have to worry for a while.

 

[BangyBangy]

However, there are some here, myself included, who believe we overpaid, figuratively, for the kids we did draft.

It’s conceivable that we could have matched a bid on young Coleman and drafted the exact same kids, had we moved our second round pick in to next year, and just loaded up on third round picks this year.

There were some here who actually mentioned doing this in the days and week/s leading up to the draft.

It was well publicised that Collingwood were considering bidding on Coleman.

It was also well publicised that Collingwood wanted to trade their 2021 first round pick in to this year’s draft, after they had matched the bid on their nga kid.

It was also well publicised that some teams late in the first round were shopping their pick to get out of this year’s draft, for a future first round pick.


We got caught last year with the bid on Keidean Coleman coming earlier than expected. (Even though one poster here did say well before the draft that a bid would come much earlier than people expected)

We got done again this year, though we had a contingency in place, when we knew it was a strong possibility.

Personally, I believe it was the first misstep our recruiting team has made at the draft, in terms strategising around our academy kids.

How do you know we didn't try to do that? Just because we didn't do it, doesn't mean we didn't try to do it.

I'm sure we tried to move our picks 17/18 to higher up the order too. Can't just snap your fingers & make it happen. Needs to be a willing second party.

In 2016 the stars aligned. This year. Not our year.

 

[Fagenslions36]

I

I haven't seen a lot of whinging at all. I've seen discussion and analysis. Not expert analysis (myself particularly), but fan discussion, which is kinda the point of why we're all here.

You've said we did well this off-season because of:
- Daniher- agreed. If he gets his body good, we do well. Free agent factor also good but doesn't speak to how well we managed for value. He was the first thing we did in the off-season, so if we signed him and then did nothing else, would we be in a better position? I'm not sure.
- Smith (presumably Eli as you said midfielder) - not something we did this off-season
-Robertson - not something we did this off-season
- Coleman - no one complaining but we did have priority access, so it was fairly straightforward

If you look at discussions around trades, and if you listen to Nobes (prior to leaving) and Conole, they talk about how a lot of fans try to microanalyse individual transactions, but that they're all part of a bigger picture, and it is better to look at the entire off-season as a whole. So, we did.

We did Daniher early. Good one.

After that, we started with an extra pick (Port, which we were hoping to be around 10), but no round 2, and finished with an extra pick (Melbourne, which we are hoping to be around 10) but no round 2. If they cancel out, we traded equivalent to a full set of picks plus Witho for Cockatoo, Coleman and 2 picks in the 40s.

No one burning memberships or lamenting the death of the club... all fine... but from a value position, I'm not sure i see the improvement over our position before the trade period.

I said we have 2 young midfielders in Robertson and smith to bring in obviously not from this draft but my point being is we have other assets/talent which has been drafted in previous years who could be ready to flourish next year making us a stronger team . We are a destination club now we can continue to add good players through free agency and add a young quality draft pick here and there . If you look at our spine it’s pretty much all 26 and under And set for next 5-6 years . Andrews And hipwood What are they 23 ? We can focus on taking the best midfielders now cause our spine is set .

 

[Brett C]

Wow, you guys are such apologists. Can't believe we just gave up on this draft when it was basically the best chance we have to improve our side after losing quality players like Witherden and Hinge. I actually feel like we will slide pretty hard. I hope I'm wrong but I can't see any other result. Imagine if Neale goes down, is Henry Smith going to be winning the ball? No? So why even draft him.
Hard F.
I'm sorry guys, but that's the truth.

In what world would any first year draftee come in and replace a Brownlow medalist like Neale?

If Neale goes down then I’d expect someone like Robertson/Smith/Joyce along with all our other midfielders to step up.

hinge and Witherden at best are C graders and wouldn’t have filled the Neale role so not quite sure what your point is.

the funny thing is that people without the emotion and or a vested interest haven’t rated us an F or even close to it.

Why do you believe that this draft is the only one for us to improve our side? Did we trade in any players who might improve our side if they’re fit and firing?

will some of our younger players continue to develop and improve?

If you answer no to all that then all hope is lost for you along with Dylan and your ilk.

 

[BangyBangy]

In what world would any first year draftee come in and replace a Brownlow medalist like Neale?

If Neale goes down then I’d expect someone like Robertson/Smith/Joyce along with all our other midfielders to step up.

hinge and Witherden at best are C graders and wouldn’t have filled the Neale role so not quite sure what your point is.

the funny thing is that people without the emotion and or a vested interest haven’t rated us an F or even close to it.

Why do you believe that this draft is the only one for us to improve our side? Did we trade in any players who might improve our side if they’re fit and firing?

will some of our younger players continue to develop and improve?

If you answer no to all that then all hope is lost for you along with Dylan and your ilk.

Brett, I think you missed the spirit of that post from Pulpdriver Wasn't a serious post.

 

[briztoon]

Go back and read through the forum again because you're wrong. The club can't be held responsible for the actions of other clubs, that's what the drafts about, excluding the fact the pies were never interested in Blake, they did it to shaft us. Did the best we could with the picks we had and if you look at what some of the other clubs are doing as far as next years draft, I think we are on the money and know exactly what path we want to take.

What am I wrong about?

I haven’t read one person slate the kids we drafted?

I haven’t read anyone say we could have drafted better.

There were rumours for more than two weeks that the Pies were going to bid on Coleman.

Twomey wrote about it in one of his articles, and we started discussing it here.


If you have genuine intelligence that a rival club is potentially going to bid on your player, you have options. Try and get ahead of the bid (at a price we were not willing to pay) or move picks back and in to the future.

My criticism is we didn’t get any future value on pick 25. Didn’t have to be a future second round pick. There were always going to be multiple late picks available, that were going to move up the draft order after other bids were matched in this draft.

 

[briztoon]

Because we basically traded out of the quality end of this draft in favour of 2021, we won't be able to assess the correctness of our draft strategy until we see what we collect with our extra first round pick next year.

My personal view was the quality end of the draft finished 3 to 5 selections before where Melbourne eventually drafted, with what were originally our two first round picks.

There was one kid, Nathan O’Driscoll, who I thought was a better talent than Coleman, left on the board when we matched the bid, and he never made to where our pick 25 ended up.

 

[briztoon]

How do you know we didn't try to do that? Just because we didn't do it, doesn't mean we didn't try to do it.

I'm sure we tried to move our picks 17/18 to higher up the order too. Can't just snap your fingers & make it happen. Needs to be a willing second party.

In 2016 the stars aligned. This year. Not our year.

I agree with that, not arguing that we didn’t try. We just don’t know what offers we had leading up to the draft, and on draft night.

We are lead to believe, from Twomey’s reporting, that we were after another first round pick in next year’s draft.

 

[briztoon]

In what world would any first year draftee come in and replace a Brownlow medalist like Neale?

If Neale goes down then I’d expect someone like Robertson/Smith/Joyce along with all our other midfielders to step up.

hinge and Witherden at best are C graders and wouldn’t have filled the Neale role so not quite sure what your point is.

the funny thing is that people without the emotion and or a vested interest haven’t rated us an F or even close to it.

Why do you believe that this draft is the only one for us to improve our side? Did we trade in any players who might improve our side if they’re fit and firing?

will some of our younger players continue to develop and improve?

If you answer no to all that then all hope is lost for you along with Dylan and your ilk.

That’s not correct.

Fox Footy (Matt Balmer) called us one of the losers of the draft. Pretty much for the same reasons Knightmare gave us a C on ESPN.

 

[Dylan12]

 

[Brett C]

That’s not correct.

Fox Footy (Matt Balmer) called us one of the losers of the draft. Pretty much for the same reasons Knightmare gave us a C on ESPN.

Yet Balmer gave us a B so proves my point not even close to an F.

AFL Draft Report Card: Magpies recover from trade nightmare, Roos’ shock call stuns rivals

AFL Draft Report Card: Pies recover from trade nightmare, shock call stuns rivals

www.foxsports.com.au

The less said about Knightmare’s ratings the better.

 

[bungalow_bill]

KM's rating (when compared with Richmond) says to me he has a bias against us for whatever reason.

 

[Clarkythelion]

It's a bit funny how the media and some supporters look at the draft in isolation and rate a clubs performance. Yet you can trade draft pick for players in the trade period.

If you look at holistically, each year each club has a number of levers they can use to improve their overall list and team performance. Yes one lever might be pulled a little weak and the other lever pulled quite hard. The you have to add in de-listing and long term injuries and culture shifts on how the end of year all went down.

I'm alway a bit bullish on each season - I think we have done brilliantly overall. If someone could go back and sort through the game day threads I wonder what % conversations where about McStay/Hipwood forward line not working? maybe 40%, more. We have made a bloody good attempt to address the issue at least on paper.

Through the year there were also lots of conversations about Robbo get older and slower, Zorko playing injured, need for speed, line breaking ability and was CEY really the answer. Again we have addressed that best we can.

The other thing is we finished second two years in a row, it's not a big tinker needed to take the next step but we took the step and are brave. Then Nobel/ Fagan have always talked about achieving sustained success, we have a brilliant resilient team and a medical team that keeps the best 22 on the field so we drafted players with the picks we have that are a few years off so they don't damage their heads knocking on the door as there are a few whom have done their time now doing that. They have good potential upside and we know we were not going to see them for a few years.

When you put it all together - brilliant 10 out of 10 as a club that refreshed its list, didn't damage culture with delisting and trading and drafted and traded for sustained performance. Cheer up - 3peat coming.

 

[harvester]

Thanks for the video Dylan12. Kidean seems like a mature young man. There family must be so proud

 

[mpal6]

I'm quite interested to see how our ruck recruit progresses, interesting choice given our recruiting and apparent needs. Surely we are already heavily into trading in a ruck next year.

I hope Ballenden sees this as the opportunity to step up. He won't get a chance as a pure forward with Daniher / Hipwood / McStay / Fullarton. Ballenden's best opportunity is to step into #2 ruck and push Archie out first. Then he could aim for the third tall + ruck relief role ahead of McStay and Fullarton.

 

[Groo2]

I hope Ballenden sees this as the opportunity to step up. He won't get a chance as a pure forward with Daniher / Hipwood / McStay / Fullarton. Ballenden's best opportunity is to step into #2 ruck and push Archie out first. Then he could aim for the third tall + ruck relief role ahead of McStay and Fullarton.

He has also done well in backline in NEAFL In the past. Sure, not many spots open there, but could be an option if required.

 

[Dylan12]

Through the year there were also lots of conversations about Robbo get older and slower, Zorko playing injured, need for speed, line breaking ability and was CEY really the answer. Again we have addressed that best we can.

When you put it all together - brilliant 10 out of 10 as a club that refreshed its list, didn't damage culture with delisting and trading and drafted and traded for sustained performance.

I don't agree with either of these points. I am assuming you are referring to Nakia Cockatoo

12

Nakia Cockatoo

Age

29

Ht

185cm

Wt

90kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.6

2star

K

6.1

2star

HB

3.5

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

3.1

5star

G

0.7

4star

No current season stats available

D

6.6

2star

K

3.4

2star

HB

3.2

3star

M

2.2

3star

T

2.4

4star

G

0.2

3star

for the first point. He's played 2-3 games in 3 years. I wouldn't be so generous as to say we addressed our wing as "best we can" given it is a highly speculative trade that there is a fair chance it will result similarly to another Xavier Clarke type trade. If it works, brilliant, but if we wanted certainty, we would've looked elsewhere.

As for your 10 out of 10 as a club, again assuming you are referring to just the on-field side of things, I doubt a lot of players would've been too happy with Alex's treatment given he had 2 years on his contract. I'd say that would impact the culture as it would reiterate to any player on the list that the club doesn't value their contract and irrespective would be happy to move them on at anytime. If that's the case, don't be surprised when players up and leave mid contract citing similar reasons. Lastly, and I'm not suggesting they are like for like replacements, but you've pushed out one of the nicest and most professional guys at the club and league in Stef Martin for a pretty average one and by his own admission, unprofessional at times, in Joe Daniher.

That's not even close to a 10 out of 10 even on the on-field side. Then factor in the off-field side, losing Noble and Griffith and its even worse.

 

[X AE A12]

I hope Ballenden sees this as the opportunity to step up. He won't get a chance as a pure forward with Daniher / Hipwood / McStay / Fullarton. Ballenden's best opportunity is to step into #2 ruck and push Archie out first. Then he could aim for the third tall + ruck relief role ahead of McStay and Fullarton.

From memory after Ballenden Skinner and Payne came in that first time only Payne got another crack and we deferred to Archie, who did have a promising final game iirc. Very interested to track both progress during the preseason as with Stef gone we seem a bit exposed, although stefs disposal in his last games was rank

 

[Fagenslions36]

Witherdon isn’t even best 22 champ I’m not sure the players would be as upset as your making out. Certainly hasn’t upset Rayner from resigning with the club has it . Witherdon has stagnated and doesn’t have the athletic tools imo to make his a consistent regular contributor . Sure he may get a bit of the ball but most of it is kick to kick stuff in the pie stands going back and forth . Looks great for dream team stats does absolutely nothing for team . Cockatoo has pace and power if it doesn’t come off what’s it cost a 3rd rounder if it does it could be the steal of the entire trade period .

I don't agree with either of these points. I am assuming you are referring to Nakia Cockatoo

12

Nakia Cockatoo

Age

29

Ht

185cm

Wt

90kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.6

2star

K

6.1

2star

HB

3.5

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

3.1

5star

G

0.7

4star

No current season stats available

D

6.6

2star

K

3.4

2star

HB

3.2

3star

M

2.2

3star

T

2.4

4star

G

0.2

3star

for the first point. He's played 2-3 games in 3 years. I wouldn't be so generous as to say we addressed our wing as "best we can" given it is a highly speculative trade that there is a fair chance it will result similarly to another Xavier Clarke type trade. If it works, brilliant, but if we wanted certainty, we would've looked elsewhere.

As for your 10 out of 10 as a club, again assuming you are referring to just the on-field side of things, I doubt a lot of players would've been too happy with Alex's treatment given he had 2 years on his contract. I'd say that would impact the culture as it would reiterate to any player on the list that the club doesn't value their contract and irrespective would be happy to move them on at anytime. If that's the case, don't be surprised when players up and leave mid contract citing similar reasons. Lastly, and I'm not suggesting they are like for like replacements, but you've pushed out one of the nicest and most professional guys at the club and league in Stef Martin for a pretty average one and by his own admission, unprofessional at times, in Joe Daniher.

That's not even close to a 10 out of 10 even on the on-field side. Then factor in the off-field side, losing Noble and Griffith and its even worse.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

People getting upset about clickbait journalism....

Nailing a draft in the eyes of journos and pundits (even with the ones with half a clue) generally means you had lots of picks to make. We all know on draft night that every kid is a star as long as you subscribe to the draft groupthink. The moment you go off-script is the moment they'll mark you down. At the time, people laughed at Adelaide drafting Doedee in the teens, but it's turned out to be quite an astute pick.

 

[spotthedog1]

I

I said we have 2 young midfielders in Robertson and smith to bring in obviously not from this draft but my point being is we have other assets/talent which has been drafted in previous years who could be ready to flourish next year making us a stronger team . We are a destination club now we can continue to add good players through free agency and add a young quality draft pick here and there . If you look at our spine it’s pretty much all 26 and under And set for next 5-6 years . Andrews And hipwood What are they 23 ? We can focus on taking the best midfielders now cause our spine is set .

Actually, what you said was "Absolutely staggered by some Whinging On this board about how poorly we have done this off season . Are you kidding me ? ", and then listed Daniher, Smith and Robertson as justification for why you disagreed that we'd had a poor offseason. I found that strange, given that two thirds of that had nothing to do with this offseason.

Every poster I've seen who's been "whinging" about our offseason has been pretty careful to differentiate between 'our list overall' and 'just this offseason'. We have a good top 18. We could probably do with depth in a couple of areas, but definitely, I expect us to be top 4 again this year, and I think most here do as well. Still, this offseason, I think we got Daniher, which is hopefully good, and after that... I think we went backwards. I wasn't expecting leaps and bounds (tough to do that when you're top 4), but I think we came in to the draft with the wrong picks for our situation, and the Pies caught us out. Was it a dick move? Partially, but we are their enemy - negatively impacting us is beneficial for them.

I don't disagree with your general sentiment about our list. I'd still prefer more depth, including our spine (don't forget, it's takes about 4 years of development for KPPs before they're usually ready), and I'm quite reserved about expectations on Smith and Robertson given they've combined for 1 game so far... Both could easily be busts (hopefully not). Agree that a few more mids would be great, but we didn't really do that this offseason either.

 

[spotthedog1]

When you put it all together - brilliant 10 out of 10 as a club that refreshed its list, didn't damage culture with delisting and trading and drafted and traded for sustained performance.

I'm not sure I can see how you've arrived at that. I've tried to look a the entire offseason (FA, trade and draft) and think we got Daniher, which is boom or bust, and then other than that, we went backwards a bit, but in a way that won't really affect our current list. I certainly don't see any way of suggesting that we've refreshed our list.

Can you provide your rationale for this? Mine is here:

List Mgmt. - 2020 Draft (December 9) discussion thread

Our currently owned picks: 24 - Blake Coleman 43 - Harry Sharp 48 - Henry Smith Our currently owned 2021 picks: 1st (MEL), 1st (BRI), 3rd (WCE), 3rd (BRI), 4th (MEL), 4th (COL), 5th (BRI)

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Gadzorks]

The risk for them would be with the lack of development in their first season they might struggle to show enough in the second to get another contract. I wonder if they considered putting off nominating for the draft until they finished school

They can finish school part time remotely. I know an athlete who did it. They worked on limited subjects and finished them in year one, then did the remaining subjects in year two.

Given our club really promotes post footy preparation and getting other qualifications, there would be a support structure in place to help make this happen. And there is enough teaches to cover tutoring if required.

Biggest issue would be housing them in an environment that is settled and conducive to study. So not the party house. Maybe Dad could run a boarding residence.

 

[Gadzorks]

A lot of Schools offer a program where you can actually do year 12 over 2 Years.
Specifically designed for Sports people.
They probably only need to go to school for 2 days a week and it may only be for certain subjects, not full days.
Could be perfect for their situation and there are good schools in Brisbane that would take them on.

Should have read to the end before I posted same

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

Thanks for the video Dylan12. Kidean seems like a mature young man. There family must be so proud

Must of been back in the Wynnum Vikings days when they last played together.


To think I saw these two boys back then and now they are playing for the Lions, like they said they would.
It's a great story and one my mate will like , he was their coach.
Great boys back then , looks like nothing has changed.
A big Welcome to all our new boys and their familys.