List Mgmt. 2020 Draft

[George]

 

[Mowman]

He marks the ball well and has the agility and speed to play on the wing. Key forwards don't play on the wing.

Yes they do Richo played wing for Tigers and Nick Rewoldt could play wing every day of the week
Buddy could've played wing easily

 

[StCicatriz]

See I see the side the complete opposite. Nothing suggests to me that we want to play a tall forward line. Again, the reason Marshall & Ryder are both in the side is predominantly because of their effectiveness in the ruck and we can't exactly rest one of them in any other position other than forward. Over the last two seasons we have brought in Higgins and Butler. We have played Steele forward. Gresham has rotated through mid and forward as have others. A huge majority of our goals have come out the back. Two of the last three seasons our leading goal kicker has been a small forward. There's an obvious trend in how we want to play and how the best sides play so it's clear to me what the strategy is.

Surround King with good marking players and damaging small forwards that have the ability to move into the midfield. Bring in midfielders that have goal kicking ability. We are talking about our first pick here and I think a genuine midfielder at that pick should be the priority over someone who is a medium sized forward that has the potential to play midfield.

I agree best available should be picked but that isn't to suggest Ford is the best available at our pick. I haven't followed the draft much either, but I have an opinion on which kind of players we need and medium sized forwards are not one of them. I think we need 2 more midfielders and preferably more outside than inside. Bytel has the tools to do both, so he needs to come on. Then we need to find another.

how do you know we aren't into a free agent next year? or another trade target?

also what if Ratts genuinely likes a super tall forward line and when Ryder retires, he simply asks for another ready made big body ruck to come in or another ready made big body forward? he's mentioned numerous times this year how he likes to really stretch the opposition down there and tbh its why we won the game against the dogs!

our best available very well could be a mid or it could be a ruck might even a KPD. ford could very well be the highest ranked player still available at our pick.

 

[StCicatriz]

Yes they do Richo played wing for Tigers and Nick Rewoldt could play wing every day of the week
Buddy could've played wing easily

that will be because genuine CHF has the same attributes as Wingers IMO. they need to cover such large areas of the ground. repeated running patterns.

sometimes you can select a player as X and they end up surprising you and end up as Y. Fyfe is an example of this a HFF/light body mid. i doubt even freo thought he would end up as a big body dominant mid like he has. but they got a good read on his talent and were able to forecast he would be a good AFL player.

 

[StCicatriz]

He marks the ball well and has the agility and speed to play on the wing. Key forwards don't play on the wing.


I don't think Ryder & Marshall play in the forward line for structure. I think they rotate through the forward line so we can play two rucks. It's more to do with the ability to play two ruckmen than it is to play 2 key talls. If we wanted to play 2 key talls we would have King and another genuine key tall down there and then we just wouldn't play Ryder.

we don't play 2 key talls. we play 3. sometimes 4.

 

[BrutThough]

He marks the ball well and has the agility and speed to play on the wing. Key forwards don't play on the wing.


I don't think Ryder & Marshall play in the forward line for structure. I think they rotate through the forward line so we can play two rucks. It's more to do with the ability to play two ruckmen than it is to play 2 key talls. If we wanted to play 2 key talls we would have King and another genuine key tall down there and then we just wouldn't play Ryder.

It was said in the preseason that if Ryder and Marshall cant impact up forward, then they wont both play. We wanted the two rucks but we also wanted another forward target.

And 23.13 between with Ryder missing some games which stacks up well. So they were more than just a resting ruck. They were a genuine forward target that was important to how our forward line functioned.

 

[StCicatriz]

It was said in the preseason that if Ryder and Marshall cant impact up forward, then they wont both play. We wanted the two rucks but we also wanted another forward target.

And 23.13 between with Ryder missing some games which stacks up well. So they were more than just a resting ruck. They were a genuine forward target that was important to how our forward line functioned.

how many Ryder kick against the dogs again in the final? how much we win by?

 

[Mighty_sainter]

I've seen a few Phantom drafts with us taking Xavier Maher now.

Some may see him as a player that may have bolted up the order this year with some exposed form.

i’d be suprised. seems to be more in the 25-50 range. plays a bit like zak jones

3

Zak Jones

Age

30

Ht

182cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.8

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

7.8

5star

M

3.4

3star

T

3.0

5star

CL

1.7

4star

D

19.1

4star

K

10.6

4star

HB

8.6

4star

M

3.4

3star

T

3.1

4star

CL

4.9

5star

D

7.0

2star

K

2.8

1star

HB

4.2

4star

M

1.0

1star

T

1.6

4star

CL

1.0

3star

can accelerate but just bombs blindly. wouldn’t call him a class player as such.

 

[StCicatriz]

It was said in the preseason that if Ryder and Marshall cant impact up forward, then they wont both play. We wanted the two rucks but we also wanted another forward target.

And 23.13 between with Ryder missing some games which stacks up well. So they were more than just a resting ruck. They were a genuine forward target that was important to how our forward line functioned.

its why i can see us targetting a ready made big body Ruck when Ryder is at retirement and go with the same setup

 

[George]

Yes they do Richo played wing for Tigers and Nick Rewoldt could play wing every day of the week
Buddy could've played wing easily

Eh, besides the point anyway. My argument was Battle is not a tall forward.

how do you know we aren't into a free agent next year? or another trade target?

also what if Ratts genuinely likes a super tall forward line and when Ryder retires, he simply asks for another ready made big body ruck to come in or another ready made big body forward? he's mentioned numerous times this year how he likes to really stretch the opposition down there and tbh its why we won the game against the dogs!

our best available very well could be a mid or it could be a ruck might even a KPD. ford could very well be the highest ranked player still available at our pick.

Well then I'll be proven wrong, won't I?

From what we've seen over the last 2 seasons - from who we have brought in to who lines up every week the strategy seems pretty self evident.

we don't play 2 key talls. we play 3. sometimes 4.

No we don't. Ryder & Marshall aren't key talls - they are ruckmen and play forward because we want to capitalize on having two rucks. Otherwise, like I said, we wouldn't bother to play Ryder and in the last 2 seasons surely would've done something to bring in another genuine key tall to play alongside King. But we haven't done that. As for Membrey & Battle - they are medium sized forwards.

It was said in the preseason that if Ryder and Marshall cant impact up forward, then they wont both play. We wanted the two rucks but we also wanted another forward target.

And 23.13 between with Ryder missing some games which stacks up well. So they were more than just a resting ruck. They were a genuine forward target that was important to how our forward line functioned.

That's great - so you will agree then that we should just play Marshall as the sole ruck and look for a replacement key tall for Ryder.

 

[Palantine]

He looks unco but what ever he does seems to be working, he times his marks well, not just out muscles. I can't tell if he's John Butcher

John Butcher

Age

34

Ht

197cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.7

2star

K

5.1

2star

HB

3.6

3star

M

3.3

3star

T

1.6

4star

G

1.3

5star

No current season stats available

D

7.8

2star

K

4.8

2star

HB

3.0

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.4

4star

G

2.6

5star

or what we hoped Paddy would turn into though.

There’s a nice mark running back with the flight, which is always just plain brave regardless of size.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[StCicatriz]

Eh, besides the point anyway. My argument was Battle is not a tall forward.


Well then I'll be proven wrong, won't I?

From what we've seen over the last 2 seasons - from who we have brought in to who lines up every week the strategy seems pretty self evident.


No we don't. Ryder & Marshall aren't key talls - they are ruckmen and play forward because we want to capitalize on having two rucks. Otherwise, like I said, we wouldn't bother to play Ryder and in the last 2 seasons surely would've done something to bring in another genuine key tall to play alongside King. But we haven't done that. As for Membrey & Battle - they are medium sized forwards.


That's great - so you will agree then that we should just play Marshall as the sole ruck and look for a replacement key tall for Ryder.

both Ryder and Marshall play significant minutes as a key tall forward. they play a tall forward role when they dont play ruck. Membrey is the CHF and can even play deep. Battle/Marsh have spent time there. King we all know about. that's 3 definites. 4 if you count Battle and Marsh playing there. Steele floats through and is tall.

someone can dig it up, but ratten has explained this before in his presser and has in the past even mentioned he plays 3 talls, i think he may have even mentioned the 4 talls in the forward line!

 

[BrutThough]

its why i can see us targetting a ready made big body Ruck when Ryder is at retirement and go with the same setup

Agreed. If we could find another ruck who can also play forward, it would be such a good to keep our point of difference from every other team.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

only problem is battle is not played as a forward. he's used a utility, mainly played on the wing. before that down back. that's where the majority of his football has come from. i believe battle is a genuine forward, but to date the club hasn't gone that way.

tim is 27 next year. given it takes 4 years for a draftee to usually develop, that would put old mate in the perfect hand over window.

also worth remembering that the game changes and quickly, because richmond have gone with a certain structure doesn't mean that's where the next successful era is coming from now. before the acquisition of Lynch, richmond went in with a very short forward line. they also didn't care about things like clearance and a dominant ruck.

we on the other hand have gone with a dominant ruck and played two.

so our structure is quite different from richmond, remembering we play one of marshall and ryder there, along side king and membrey. with battle floating down there off the wing or per needs basis.

based on the mock drafts. which are always taken with a grain of salt, i'd say its unlikely ford even gets to our pick.

Yep he's a utility , because we already have King, Membrey and a resting ruck there, and he's good enough to play as a Utility.

 

[BrutThough]

That's great - so you will agree then that we should just play Marshall as the sole ruck and look for a replacement key tall for Ryder.

I think assess all options.

If we could find another ruck to play alongside Marshall but also spend time up forward, then that would be a great option for us. But if the key forward replacement can ruck in short bursts is also someone we should be on the lookout for.

 

[Mowman]

Eh, besides the point anyway. My argument was Battle is not a tall forward.

Beside the point LOL
Of course he is a Key forward (or could be ) if played there

 

[StCicatriz]

Beside the point LOL
Of course he is a Key forward (or could be ) if played there

worth noting: he played there vs Richmond in a final

 

[George]

both Ryder and Marshall play significant minutes as a key tall forward. they play a tall forward role when they dont play ruck. Membrey is the CHF and can even play deep. Battle/Marsh have spent time there. King we all know about. that's 3 definites. 4 if you count Battle and Marsh playing there. Steele floats through and is tall.

someone can dig it up, but ratten has explained this before in his presser and has in the past even mentioned he plays 3 talls, i think he may have even mentioned the 4 talls in the forward line!

That's not what they are both in the side for though. They are in the side because we have a clear POD with them both spending time in the ruck. If the actual strategy was two key talls - why are we playing a ruckman there. Wouldn't we be better off playing an actual forward and then have Marshall ruck one out. No, we wouldn't do that. Because Ryder & Marshall are in the side for predominantly one reason and that is to offer different looks to opposing ruckmen - the other reason (resting forward) is a bonus because they have the ability to kick goals but again it is not the reason they are in the side.

You said earlier Battle was a utility. Now he is a tall forward? No. Membrey, Battle, Marsh all medium sized forwards and you could say Battle & Marsh also play a bit of a utility role. If you want to say Membrey is a CHF because that's the position he is put into that's fine but he still is not a key tall.

 

[pebblesofsand]

I keep seeing these teams with Long at half back and I can't help thinking we still need to target an attacking hbf'er.

 

[George]

I think assess all options.

If we could find another ruck to play alongside Marshall but also spend time up forward, then that would be a great option for us. But if the key forward replacement can ruck in short bursts is also someone we should be on the lookout for.

So what is the strategy then. Is it play two rucks to have a POD or is it to play two tall forwards.

Marshall & Ryder aren't in the forward line because we see them as forwards. We need them both in the side because of how dominant we can be when they are both rucking. There's no other position for them to rest other than forward.

If the strategy is two key talls then have two key talls who are genuine forwards, not 1 key genuine tall forward and a ruckman.

Beside the point LOL
Of course he is a Key forward (or could be ) if played there

He is a medium sized forward, have said that all along. You named three players in the last 30 years that have had the ability to play on the wing and also as a genuine key tall forward (and are also three of the best forwards of all-time - so, exceptional talents). It doesn't really help your argument.

 

[Mowman]

He is a medium sized forward, have said that all along. You named three players in the last 30 years that have had the ability to play on the wing and also as a genuine key tall forward (and are also three of the best forwards of all-time - so, exceptional talents). It doesn't really help your argument.

Seems that Our footy club see it different

They have him as a Key Forward and Key defender

A transformation from a key forward into a key defender paid dividends for Josh Battle

24

Josh Battle

Age

27

Ht

193cm

Wt

93kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.9

3star

K

9.0

3star

HB

3.9

3star

M

5.0

5star

T

2.4

4star

MG

196.8

3star

D

11.0

3star

K

7.3

3star

HB

3.8

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

1.8

3star

MG

142.8

3star

D

10.8

3star

K

6.2

3star

HB

4.6

4star

M

3.4

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

175.6

3star

in 2019, who grew into one of the Saints’ most exciting young talents.

 

[StCicatriz]

That's not what they are both in the side for though. They are in the side because we have a clear POD with them both spending time in the ruck. If the actual strategy was two key talls - why are we playing a ruckman there. Wouldn't we be better off playing an actual forward and then have Marshall ruck one out. No, we wouldn't do that. Because Ryder & Marshall are in the side for predominantly one reason and that is to offer different looks to opposing ruckmen - the other reason (resting forward) is a bonus because they have the ability to kick goals but again it is not the reason they are in the side.

You said earlier Battle was a utility. Now he is a tall forward? No. Membrey, Battle, Marsh all medium sized forwards and you could say Battle & Marsh also play a bit of a utility role. If you want to say Membrey is a CHF because that's the position he is put into that's fine but he still is not a key tall.

because you need someone to spend time in the ruck at some point. you can't have marshall ruck one out for obvious reasons. he'll be cooked come the end of the game, he does need to go off the ground!!! and if he's not cooked by then he sure will be come mid season.

if the forward line didn't matter, why not just use carlisle as the ruck and have him follow their resting ruck foward up the ground? why didn't we continue to just use battle like we have done in parts for ruck minutes? or marsh...

if the forward craft didn't matter, why was Ryder dropped after not hitting the score board?

Battle is a utility, who spends time forward. for example he played exclusively as a tall forward vs richmond in a final. other times he has spent no minutes down there and has played exclussively down back. other times he has spent time on the wing with minutes up forward.

if the strategy is as you suggest to have one tall forward and thats it. then battle would not spend time down there. membrey would not be playing as CHF. Ryder would not be playing there and not dropped because he couldn't impact the scoreboard.

 

[George]

Seems the Our footy club see it different

They have him as a Key Forward and Key defender

A transformation from a key forward into a key defender paid dividends for Josh Battle

24

Josh Battle

Age

27

Ht

193cm

Wt

93kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.9

3star

K

9.0

3star

HB

3.9

3star

M

5.0

5star

T

2.4

4star

MG

196.8

3star

D

11.0

3star

K

7.3

3star

HB

3.8

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

1.8

3star

MG

142.8

3star

D

10.8

3star

K

6.2

3star

HB

4.6

4star

M

3.4

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

175.6

3star

in 2019, who grew into one of the Saints’ most exciting young talents.

That's the beauty of having an opinion.

 

[BrutThough]

So what is the strategy then. Is it play two rucks to have a POD or is it to play two talls.

Marshall & Ryder aren't in the forward line because we see them as forwards. We need them both in the side because of how dominant we can be when they are both rucking. There's no other position for them to rest other than forward.

If the strategy is two key talls then have two key talls who are genuine forwards, not 1 key genuine tall forward and a ruckman.


He is a medium sized forward, have said that all along. You named three players in the last 30 years that have had the ability to play on the wing and also as a genuine key tall forward (and are also three of the best forwards of all-time - so, exceptional talents). It doesn't really help your argument.

Marshall and Ruder are rucks who can also play as genuine key forwards, and have done so at other times in their careers. And if they weren't impacting when resting forward, they both wouldn't be in the team.

When they are in the ruck, they are ruckman first. When they are forward, they are expected to play and impact just like any other key forward would. Hence why our preferred structure was more than just 1 key forward and smalls.

 

[George]

because you need some to spend time in the ruck at some point. you can't have marshall ruck one out for obvious reasons. he'll be cooked come the end of the game, he does need to go off the ground!!! and if he's not cooked by then he sure will be come mid season.

if the forward line didn't matter, why not just use carlisle as the ruck and have him follow their resting ruck foward up the ground?

if the forward craft didn't matter, why was Ryder dropped after not hitting the score board?

Battle is a utility, who spends time forward. for example he played exclusively as a tall forward vs richmond in a final. other times he has spent no minutes down there and has played exclussively down back. other times he has spent time on the wing with minutes up forward.

if the strategy is as you suggest to have one tall forward and thats it. then battle would not spend time down there. membrey would not be playing as CHF. Ryder would not be playing there and not dropped because he couldn't impact the scoreboard.

That's what I'm saying...so the actual strategy is to play two rucks moreso than it is two play two key forwards. If two key forwards was the strategy we wouldn't be playing Ryder there I can guarantee you...we would've gone and found someone who is a genuine forward to play 2nd tall role. Having Ryder or Marshall forward is a bonus but it's because we want to play two rucks.

Our forward line obviously does matter, you see the strategy as two key forwards I see it as one surrounding by marking players and smalls. If we could play Marshall one out in the ruck I'm confident we wouldn't play Ryder at all.

Battle & Membrey are good marking players but nothing like King who is the only genuine key tall forward we have that has legitimate chances at playing regular senior football next year. Just because someone plays a certain role in the side or a certain position doesn't mean they actually are genuinely that kind of player.

Anyway obviously we have gotten off point - the discussion was actually around two things. One - if Ford is a good pick because he can move into the midfield - I disagree, I think we should be going after genuine mids. And two - if Ford is a tall forward or not. 188cm is not a tall forward, sorry.

 

[George]

Marshall and Ruder are rucks who can also play as genuine key forwards, and have done so at other times in their careers. And if they weren't impacting when resting forward, they both wouldn't be in the team.

When they are in the ruck, they are ruckman first. When they are forward, they are expected to play and impact just like any other key forward would. Hence why our preferred structure was more than just 1 key forward and smalls.

They aren't genuine key forwards. You can argue Marshall, but he isn't in the side to play forward. A genuine forward IMO is someone that plays almost exclusively forward. They are ruckmen that rest forward and as an added bonus have the ability to kick goals. So if the strategy is two tall forwards, I don't know why we didn't spend the last 2 years trying to find one.

If they aren't impacting in the ruck they wouldn't be in the team either and this is the point - first and foremost they are in there to ruck. If we wanted two key tall forwards, and genuine tall forwards at that, we would just play Marshall one out in the ruck and find ourselves a genuine tall forward because I think we can all agree if that is the strategy there is surely better options out there to play 2nd tall to King than Ryder.