Academy 2020 Father/Son, NGA and Academy Prospects - The Compromised Draft

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Kwality said:
Try it evens up the advantages of the heartlanf States where there is 100+ years of junior infrastructure in place to develop players.

There should be no academies in place in WA,SA or Vic.
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Without thinking it through, how about no NGA or FS, an uncompromising draft, but Norther clubs get a transfer fee for every player selected from their zone. Coukd even go towards special salary cap for a marquee player.
 
master bate said:
I get the feeling Sos bidding on Henry and Green before trading out of the pick altogether was a little bit of dummy bidding. Although Carlton had been linked to Henry pretty heavily and is it a dummy bid on Green when everyone thinks it's a steal?

The Swans actually did the Giants a huge favour because the Swans bidding on Green at pick 5 was thought to be highly likely and instead he lasted all the way to pick 10.

I can't remember a single bid that has seemed like a gamble just to get a team to match. That the Crows are apparently not bidding pick 1 on JUH this year seems very odd to me. I'd do it every day of the week.
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Not true at all, we rated Henry the highest out of that draft class (or at least SOS did), was not a dummy bid at all.

He also bId on Setterfield a few years ago too.

And frankly other clubs dropped the bundle by not bidding on Green earlier.

There should be no such thing as gentleman's agreements between clubs with regards to NGA bidding, I know Freo fans were filthy on us bidding for Henry, but we did the right thing by our club and our needs.
 
Elmer_Judd said:
Not true at all, we rated Henry the highest out of that draft class (or at least SOS did), was not a dummy bid at all.

He also bId on Setterfield a few years ago too.

And frankly other clubs dropped the bundle by not bidding on Green earlier.

There should be no such thing as gentleman's agreements between clubs with regards to NGA bidding, I know Freo fans were filthy on us bidding for Henry, but we did the right thing by our club and our needs.
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It’s such a poor system the bidding system and to think this guy wants further benefits from the academies is really poor.. They really are looked after like no other club.. with the bidding system it’s got to be overhauled. Why would The crows bid for JUH at pick 1. It will just count against them if the roles are ever reversed so easy option is let him slide.. north the same, Sydney the same.. but we all know he’s the best player in the draft.. AFL should have a expert panel to judge the top picks and they can allocate the points.. it’s fairer than opposition clubs doing it. Id be removing first rounders from
North academies just as they have NGA.. I’d prefer Sydney clubs get Cola or salary cap relief than first rounders gifted to them..
 

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Lore said:
GWS and GC have had academies and zone selections somewhat in lieu of father/sons that everyone else has, although Brisbane and Sydney have also benefited from the introduction of Northern Academies (partially because their own limited fields of local prospects were diluted by having to share them with the new teams I suppose).

SA and WA clubs have all been in the AFL for over 20 years now so should have the sons of 100 AFL game players coming through.
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True it should be a level playground trouble is 100 years of junior infrastructure to only some clubs means it is not a level play ground YET some feel entitled to a sneaky leg up.
 
Kwality said:
True it should be a level playground trouble is 100 years of junior infrastructure to only some clubs means it is not a level play ground YET some feel entitled to a sneaky leg up.
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The Swans out of all teams to call for a review on it really gives me the shits..

By all rights, Nick Blakey should be a Roos or Lions player, I have no problems with them getting Mills and Heeney (cause they most probably would be not playing AFL otherwise) but the attitude of Beat it Beatson strikes me as a Privileged Private School kid who is cut off from Daddy's Purse Strings and has to find a job on their own merits in the public or private sector.

News Flash Kinnear, you want the Swans to start improving, get a new coach. Horse or any other decent gaffer) should have jagged at least 2 flags for the Swans during Buddy's prime (and injury free years), instead Sydney have nothing to show for it.

The love affair the Swans administration have for Longmire has baffled me for years. 2012 was a long time ago and Horse cannot live off that forever
 
Thetrader15 said:
In that case, we should make all Vic, Sa, Wa clubs FS rule be if a player has played 100 games since Freo came in (i.e. 1995) as Freo games don't count since then.

Then it's an even playing field. This means Craig Kelly's sons aren't eligible.

Can't see that rubbing with Vic fans. I'm sure to hear the "you joined our comp" argument.
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Victorian clubs didn't have "AFL" players before 1990 either. Difference is they only get access to one club worth of father/sons from prior to that date.

WA and SA teams had/have entry concessions that entitle them to access father-sons from multiple WAFL and SANFL clubs, hence the higher games threshold. In theory that should lead to an approximately similar number of father-son eligible draftees, but from a more durable and talented group of fathers than the average Victorian club has access to. If Fremantle's concessions weren't good enough (or for any of the other teams who joined with similar concessions), that's a separate argument that should be addressed individually, and in another thread.

At any rate this has gotten remarkably far from the topic of the thread. Do Fremantle (or Adelaide) have a problem with other clubs putting dummy bids on their highly rated academy kids?
 
Lore said:
Victorian clubs didn't have "AFL" players before 1990 either. Difference is they only get access to one club worth of father/sons from prior to that date.

WA and SA teams had/have entry concessions that entitle them to access father-sons from multiple WAFL and SANFL clubs, hence the higher games threshold. In theory that should lead to an approximately similar number of father-son eligible draftees, but from a more durable and talented group of fathers than the average Victorian club has access to. If Fremantle's concessions weren't good enough (or for any of the other teams who joined with similar concessions), that's a separate argument that should be addressed individually, and in another thread.

At any rate this has gotten remarkably far from the topic of the thread. Do Fremantle (or Adelaide) have a problem with other clubs putting dummy bids on their highly rated academy kids?
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You want the kid, pay up.
 
Lore said:
Victorian clubs didn't have "AFL" players before 1990 either. Difference is they only get access to one club worth of father/sons from prior to that date.

WA and SA teams had/have entry concessions that entitle them to access father-sons from multiple WAFL and SANFL clubs, hence the higher games threshold. In theory that should lead to an approximately similar number of father-son eligible draftees, but from a more durable and talented group of fathers than the average Victorian club has access to. If Fremantle's concessions weren't good enough (or for any of the other teams who joined with similar concessions), that's a separate argument that should be addressed individually, and in another thread.

At any rate this has gotten remarkably far from the topic of the thread. Do Fremantle (or Adelaide) have a problem with other clubs putting dummy bids on their highly rated academy kids?
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I'm yet to see too many dummy buds. You can argue the Henry last year, but in general, IMO, bids come later rather than earlier.

If someone bids on Newchurch in the first round, they are welcome to him. It means we get the chance for a better player with our next pick.
 
Kwality said:
You want the kid, pay up.
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Correct. For all the apparent dummy bids, we have never seen a club pick one of their NGAs as the next best at their pick.

I don't think clubs can complain about the value of the players they get to match.
 
Thetrader15 said:
The best way to stop "dummy bids" is to not match them.

Clubs are then only going to bid when they want the player.

Shame he didn't give any examples of dummy bids, because I think more bids have been later rather than earlier.
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The best example of. Dummy bid was Melbourne’s bid on Heeney at pick 3. Melbourne knew Swans were committed to Heeney, despite him not being even top ten, but used that bid to make Swans use up their early bid.
 
Swanee said:
The best example of. Dummy bid was Melbourne’s bid on Heeney at pick 3. Melbourne knew Swans were committed to Heeney, despite him not being even top ten, but used that bid to make Swans use up their early bid.
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That you Kinnear? Heeney was widely seen as one of the top handful in that draft and an "early" bid made zero difference as Sydney could match with a single pick under the old rules.
 
Swanee said:
The best example of. Dummy bid was Melbourne’s bid on Heeney at pick 3. Melbourne knew Swans were committed to Heeney, despite him not being even top ten, but used that bid to make Swans use up their early bid.
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Heeney was bid under the old system where you just had to use your next live pick.

The Swans "early bid" was pick 18 because they had just made the GF in 2014.

Oh and they picked up Lance Franklin that off season as well.

Do you think it's worth while complaining about a system that landed you Isaac Heeney and Lance Franklin for pick 18?
 
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Yeah Kinnear is a great recruiter but that is a nonsense suggestion from him.

If you don't rate a kid roughly where someone "dummy" bids them then don't match, you already get a 20% discount.

I don't think Heeney or Mills were bid too high, as a junior Mills was better than Heeney as a mid, which is why there has been so much wonder why Swans refused to play him in the middle over the years.

I'd say this is really coming out because of concern about not having the capital to match for Gulden if the bid comes high (ie around pick 15), which it may, given the lack of certainty around Vic kids.
 
Ignoring the other implications, some of the potential downside to any club with a FS/Academy pick is self inflicted anyway.


Part of the reason clubs wont not match "dummy" bids, is that they trade away high level picks for a combination of lower ranked picks worth cumulatively more points. Meaning if you miss out on your FS/Academy pick, you are much further back in the draft than you would be if you kept your original picks.

But if you want to play the points system you have to run that risk of teams calling your bluff and bidding early, cant have it both ways (picking up first rounders with 2nd round picks and getting a first round pick back if you dont get your fs/academy player)
 
Pykie said:
Heeney was bid under the old system where you just had to use your next live pick.

The Swans "early bid" was pick 18 because they had just won the flag in 2014.

Oh and they picked up Lance Franklin that off season as well.

Do you think it's worth while complaining about a system that landed you Isaac Heeney and Lance Franklin for pick 18?
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I was at that game and my recollection is that the Hawks tore the Swans a newie in the 2014 GF, it was a complete mental and physical domination.

You are right about the Buddy thing though, the whole FA compo thing is a joke.
 
TazHawk15 said:
I was at that game and my recollection is that the Hawks tore the Swans a newie in the 2014 GF, it was a complete mental and physical domination.

You are right about the Buddy thing though, the whole FA compo thing is a joke.
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Mixed 12' and 14' up!
 
Tippett2Goal said:
Ignoring the other implications, some of the potential downside to any club with a FS/Academy pick is self inflicted anyway.


Part of the reason clubs wont not match "dummy" bids, is that they trade away high level picks for a combination of lower ranked picks worth cumulatively more points. Meaning if you miss out on your FS/Academy pick, you are much further back in the draft than you would be if you kept your original picks.

But if you want to play the points system you have to run that risk of teams calling your bluff and bidding early, cant have it both ways (picking up first rounders with 2nd round picks and getting a first round pick back if you dont get your fs/academy player)
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Whats wrong with 'you want him, you pay'?
 
Yeah, weird suggestion from Kinnear. If market puts a certain value on the kid and you don't agree, then pass on the kid is the right result. You can't ask for compensation for something you never had in the first place. The comp is the 20% discount if you choose to match.

Brisbane list now has a good proportion of QLD players thanks to academy - Andrews, Hipwood, Ballenden, Coleman, Payne, Fullarton, McFadyen, Archie Smith etc. We had our set of misses too like Dawson, Hammelmann, Rueben Williams and few others.

But the academy structure has achieved the important outcome of creating oversupply and a bigger pool in my view. The list below is what we didn't match and this is what academy is all about. I'm sure there'll be more this year.

2015Wylie Buzza (Geelong), Corey Wagner (North Melbourne)
2016Elliot Himmelberg (Adelaide), Declan Watson (North Melbourne), Mabior Chol (Richmond)
2019Will Martyn (Richmond), Noah Cumberland (Richmond),
 
www.afl.com.au

Lions not playing favourites on academy players

Club says it isn't playing favourites with its Academy players
www.afl.com.au www.afl.com.au

Old article but has a more balanced view from the academy manager.

Despite putting four years work into Dawson, Lions academy manager Luke Curran said the club could not afford to be too sentimental with players from their own backyard.

"We get to know the boys pretty well, but we also want the best talent coming into the football club," Curran said.

"While we'd like our academy boys in there amongst the selections, it's unrealistic to think we'd take just purely academy boys in the draft.

"The boys have worked hard, earned their spot, and I think it's justified when other clubs bid on the boys - that really justifies where they sit in the draft order."
 
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