Discussion 2020 General AFL Discussion

[L_W_P]

So who do we think was the best ruckman out of Longer, Hickey and Pierce?

Tap work - Longer, Pierce, Hickey.
Around the ground - Hickey, Pierce, Longer.


Personally I liked Longer the most. Having a reliable tap ruck is what our lesser lights needed in the midfield. Let's get first use.

Hickey was the best option for modern AFL though.

 

[Grav]

Thanks for the info . Then they've had their reduction, the lazy flogs. By the way, when was it reduced to twenty per quarter, for the benefit of us foreigners?

Thought everyone knew that 20min. was the metric version of 25min. (slap) will sneak back out again.

 

[plugger66]

Tap work - Longer, Pierce, Hickey.
Around the ground - Hickey, Pierce, Longer.


Personally I liked Longer the most. Having a reliable tap ruck is what our lesser lights needed in the midfield. Let's get first use.

Hickey was the best option for modern AFL though.

Without being rude I don't see how you could have Pierce ahead of Hickey in any part of the game. Played 5 games in 7 years with an average of 19 hit outs a games. Hickey averages the same hit outs over 100 games. Overall you are right though. Hickey still suited to AFL footy. The other 2 weren't suited after 2017.

 

[L_W_P]

Without being rude I don't see how you could have Pierce ahead of Hickey in any part of the game. Played 5 games in 7 years with an average of 19 hit outs a games. Hickey averages the same hit outs over 100 games. Overall you are right though. Hickey still suited to AFL footy. The other 2 weren't suited after 2017.

I think that Pierce was a better tap ruck. Pirece v Hickey in the ruck, I would give Lewy the edge.

once the ball hit the ground through Hickey played like another (C Grade) midfielder where as the other 2 were non existent. Killing the 3rd man up rule took them both out IMO.

 

[plugger66]

I think that Pierce was a better tap ruck. Pirece v Hickey in the ruck, I would give Lewy the edge.

once the ball hit the ground through Hickey played like another (C Grade) midfielder where as the other 2 were non existent. Killing the 3rd man up rule took them both out IMO.

We still have that rule.

 

[L_W_P]

We still have that rule.

Sorry, I meant the introduction of the ban on 3rd man up. 'Killing' the 3rd man up.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Longer had one game in 2015 where he had 50 hitouts, 15 contested possessions and 20 total possessions. He was only 22, and strung me along for a couple of years based on that performance. IDK he must have been rucking against Daisy Thomas or something.
He did a couple similar but not as good in 2017.
BLEAHHHHHH

 

[gringo2011]

Longer had one game in 2015 where he had 50 hitouts, 15 contested possessions and 20 total possessions. He was only 22, and strung me along for a couple of years based on that performance. IDK he must have been rucking against Daisy Thomas or something.
He did a couple similar but not as good in 2017.
BLEAHHHHHH

A Brisbane mate always reminds me of how he was the only one of guys that bailed that ended up a spud. Elliot Yeo, Jack Crisp, Docherty, Polec and Longer all left and only Longer turned out to be s**t. They turned him into Mc Stay who's a pretty handy player.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

A Brisbane mate always reminds me of how he was the only one of guys that bailed that ended up a spud. Elliot Yeo, Jack Crisp, Docherty, Polec and Longer all left and only Longer turned out to be s**t. They turned him into Mc Stay who's a pretty handy player.

TBH i think he was serviceable enough to carve out a career ,even if it was a backup ruck.
Joel Tippett
Adam Pattison
Cameron Wood.
Shaun Hampson
Had pretty decent careers with limited ability.

Sad that, even if he wasn't going to be a star, he had to leave the way he did.

 

[borderbarry]

And you are forgetting our American friend who we got rid of too early I think. He was better around the ground than Billy, and I thought was worth hanging onto a bit longer.

 

[plugger66]

And you are forgetting our American friend who we got rid of too early I think. He was better around the ground than Billy, and I thought was worth hanging onto a bit longer.

Wasn’t even that good in the ammos last year so could be right

 

[lewdogs]

Posted this on main board for a bit of discussion, any thoughts?

How do we still have some kind of a reserves league this year? Will the VFL get up and running? Does it pose a risk to the AFL to have sides from outside the AFL world mingling with the AFL, or will the spread be so contained that they can play a VFL competition? Is that even viable in 2020?

I had a bit of a crazy idea - what about merging AFL teams for a reserves competition in 2020? The sides could be amalgamations of two teams based on location, eg:

- West Coast/Freo
- Adelaide/Port
- Sydney/GWS
- Bris/GC
- Dogs/Geelong
- Essendon/North
- St Kilda/Hawthorn
- Melbourne/Carlton
- Richmond/Collingwood

The games could be played as curtain-raisers in the same format as the AFL games (shorter quarters) but maybe with a larger bench. This gives the players a chance to still play matches without breaking the 'hub' or 'bubble' of the AFL.

Any thoughts on this idea, or do you think the VFL will get up and running along with the AFL?

 

[BrutThough]

Posted this on main board for a bit of discussion, any thoughts?

How do we still have some kind of a reserves league this year? Will the VFL get up and running? Does it pose a risk to the AFL to have sides from outside the AFL world mingling with the AFL, or will the spread be so contained that they can play a VFL competition? Is that even viable in 2020?

I had a bit of a crazy idea - what about merging AFL teams for a reserves competition in 2020? The sides could be amalgamations of two teams based on location, eg:

- West Coast/Freo
- Adelaide/Port
- Sydney/GWS
- Bris/GC
- Dogs/Geelong
- Essendon/North
- St Kilda/Hawthorn
- Melbourne/Carlton
- Richmond/Collingwood

The games could be played as curtain-raisers in the same format as the AFL games (shorter quarters) but maybe with a larger bench. This gives the players a chance to still play matches without breaking the 'hub' or 'bubble' of the AFL.

Any thoughts on this idea, or do you think the VFL will get up and running along with the AFL?

I don't hate the idea. I think it is a long shot that the VFL will play a season this year so this would be a good alternative the bottom of the list to remain match fit and get form.

This could also work with the proposed hubs where the remaining players could all play against each other before the real games, and potentially fill some air time for FoxFooty to play before the games.

 

[Nutsngum]

hes a good kid ... im really happy for him ... his old man is quite the character very much larger than life .. i remember talking to his mum at one of our saints functions just before he left for the US and she was telling me how after the watters era he tried to get over to WA to join up with Ross Lyon at Freo as they had a strong relationship but he couldnt give u spot to Sippa on Freo's list but he was welcomed to come join their WAFL team and earn his spot that way ... but he decided to stay in Victoria insetad of come west ..

Siposs was on the list for a year before Lyon buggered off and Ive never heard of Lyon having a particular affection to the "rookies" so to speak. Just seems a very odd thing to do for a diehard saints supporter.. and considering his mum's a bit.. of a character herself I wouldnt put it past being a bit embellished.

 

[n1ck]

Actually Sippa was one of the few rookies RL gave games to in their first year. He liked guys who fit into the system and worked hard so its not that hard to believe.

Siposs was on the list for a year before Lyon buggered off and Ive never heard of Lyon having a particular affection to the "rookies" so to speak. Just seems a very odd thing to do for a diehard saints supporter.. and considering his mum's a bit.. of a character herself I wouldnt put it past being a bit embellished.

On SM-N960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Siposs was on the list for a year before Lyon buggered off and Ive never heard of Lyon having a particular affection to the "rookies" so to speak. Just seems a very odd thing to do for a diehard saints supporter.. and considering his mum's a bit.. of a character herself I wouldnt put it past being a bit embellished.

thats an exageration that has been repeated so many times its now taken as fact ... RL didnt have time for rookies who were not buying into his plan.. his focus was on winning us a flag and especially during that period most of our kids were below average to start off with so if they were not going to be part of the sloution to move us closer to the flag then Ross wasnt going to waste too much time on them...
RL rated guys who put in.. Sippo was one of those ... but to your reply i think after it was clear Sippos future wasnt going to be at St Kilda he worked the phones to find anothe place to follow that dream ... it didnt run that way and now hes shooting for a different dream..

 

[ike2112]

It's already been noted that whilst Lyon preferred mature players that's because we were either trying to supplement our young core as they grew (think Roo, Kosi, Ball, Xav in the mid 00s) then even moreso in our flag window. Trading for Dempster and Schneider, or bringing in other live bodies is very much the sort of move Geelong would do nowadays. So he had less true young guys to work with, by design.
That combined with our on-field performances meant we'd often be drafting young talent quite far down - end of 2nd, end of 3rd, we weren't exactly selecting top tier talent who demanded a spot in the 22.

Hence its a skewed view to say Lyon didn't play the youngsters. Of the youngsters we selected, few were up to the grade with the likely exception having been Lynch who was in the unfortunate position of being Roo's understudy and was no use in the ruck as a 2nd option. I doubt many other clubs gave their 3rd round and rookie draft picks many games 2007 through 2010 either.

 

[StCicatriz]

thats an exageration that has been repeated so many times its now taken as fact ... RL didnt have time for rookies who were not buying into his plan.. his focus was on winning us a flag and especially during that period most of our kids were below average to start off with so if they were not going to be part of the sloution to move us closer to the flag then Ross wasnt going to waste too much time on them...
RL rated guys who put in.. Sippo was one of those ... but to your reply i think after it was clear Sippos future wasnt going to be at St Kilda he worked the phones to find anothe place to follow that dream ... it didnt run that way and now hes shooting for a different dream..

should speak to Sam Menegola about Ross Lyon

 

[plugger66]

should speak to Sam Menegola about Ross Lyon

Should speak to Lenny Hayes and rooy about him. Even bakes who he sacked after a game. Easy to pick names who like and dislike coaches. Means jack.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

should speak to Sam Menegola about Ross Lyon

again players of note ... players who are the top of the tree in professionalism and effort all rate Ross the best coach they have ever had ... you say talk to Sam Menagola .. i say talk to Matt Pavlich about Ross .... speak to Rooey or Lenny .... chat to Mundy , Fyfe , Dal Santo , Goddard, Sandilands, Milne .... the common trend with players who dont rate ross and those that do is a pretty obvious trait ...
and if you want to talk about him not giving guys a shot have a chat to Clint Jones about him as he is a prime example of a player who buys into what Ross is coaching and following it to the hilt ...
Ross knew all to well Clints flaws but he also saw his strengths and he coached Clint in a way to make sure his strengths were not undone by his flaws .. mentally strong players who put in the effort see the reward with Ross , lazy and unfocused players go nowhere under Ross ... the one thing i am torn between being thankful and also feeling a tinge of disapointment is the by the time Acres got to freo Lyon was gone, as i reckon Acre under lyon would have seen Acres reach and exceed the potential he has

 

[StCicatriz]

again players of note ... players who are the top of the tree in professionalism and effort all rate Ross the best coach they have ever had ... you say talk to Sam Menagola .. i say talk to Matt Pavlich about Ross .... speak to Rooey or Lenny .... chat to Mundy , Fyfe , Dal Santo , Goddard, Sandilands, Milne .... the common trend with players who dont rate ross and those that do is a pretty obvious trait ...
and if you want to talk about him not giving guys a shot have a chat to Clint Jones about him as he is a prime example of a player who buys into what Ross is coaching and following it to the hilt ...
Ross knew all to well Clints flaws but he also saw his strengths and he coached Clint in a way to make sure his strengths were not undone by his flaws .. mentally strong players who put in the effort see the reward with Ross , lazy and unfocused players go nowhere under Ross ... the one thing i am torn between being thankful and also feeling a tinge of disapointment is the by the time Acres got to freo Lyon was gone, as i reckon Acre under lyon would have seen Acres reach and exceed the potential he has

The problem is he's an unbelievable s**t wholeistic coach. He's hyper focused on certain areas but non existent in others.

You are saying unless you are best 22 and able to perform to the level he requires then you're no good in his eyes and won't see the time of day.

No wonder there's a long list of blokes he could never get the best out of. Some of which are very local about him.

No wonder he couldn't get any first round draft picks to be elite players and reach their potential. He always had to have the mature guy.

Which is what makes clarko such an amazing coach. Same for Simpson. Theyre able to appeal and get the best out of everyone on the list.

They know every player is at a different level and time in their career. They work towards getting the best out of them not completely forgetting about them.

Its what killed his career in the end. He could not see a side come through from u18 to finals. He just didn't know how to develop the kids into senior players. He needs someone to be there before him to get them to say a 6-7 out of 10 so he can then put in place the structure to take them to an 8 or 9 out of 10.

The problem is he never reaches the ultimate prize because its all structure and very little on skills development.

Freo over here would spend every session on these out dated structures of his and not much time at all on actual skills development. Wce on the other were all about skill and less to do with structure.

No surprises either then he had not innovated the game at all since Tudor left his side. Its all he had. Tudors game plan from 2008.

Want some interesting reading. Look at the amount of draft picks especially first rounders spent on players and what he was able to develop them into. Its horrific reading.

Then look at his so called wants at the trade table too. Stuff of desperstion and failure.

Then look at the issues with player behaviour becuase of his philosophy of leaving everything at the door.

Hes a good coach but he's amazing flawed in areas. Now the games gone past him and he's now just a poor ineffective coach.

 

[plugger66]

The problem is he's an unbelievable s**t wholeistic coach. He's hyper focused on certain areas but non existent in others.

You are saying unless you are best 22 and able to perform to the level he requires then you're no good in his eyes and won't see the time of day.

No wonder there's a long list of blokes he could never get the best out of. Some of which are very local about him.

No wonder he couldn't get any first round draft picks to be elite players and reach their potential. He always had to have the mature guy.

Which is what makes clarko such an amazing coach. Same for Simpson. Theyre able to appeal and get the best out of everyone on the list.

They know every player is at a different level and time in their career. They work towards getting the best out of them not completely forgetting about them.

Its what killed his career in the end. He could not see a side come through from u18 to finals. He just didn't know how to develop the kids into senior players. He needs someone to be there before him to get them to say a 6-7 out of 10 so he can then put in place the structure to take them to an 8 or 9 out of 10.

The problem is he never reaches the ultimate prize because its all structure and very little on skills development.

Freo over here would spend every session on these out dated structures of his and not much time at all on actual skills development. Wce on the other were all about skill and less to do with structure.

No surprises either then he had not innovated the game at all since Tudor left his side. Its all he had. Tudors game plan from 2008.

Want some interesting reading. Look at the amount of draft picks especially first rounders spent on players and what he was able to develop them into. Its horrific reading.

Then look at his so called wants at the trade table too. Stuff of desperstion and failure.

Then look at the issues with player behaviour becuase of his philosophy of leaving everything at the door.

Hes a good coach but he's amazing flawed in areas. Now the games gone past him and he's now just a poor ineffective coach.

I think you are Completely wrong. It didn’t matter if you wEre a top 22 player, it mattered if you had an attitude to work

and you are completely wrong with the trades It wasn’t his fault our list manager stuffed up a the salary cap. Also you can’t have it both ways and continually tell our drafting has been terrible for many years but expect a smart couch to continue that terrible drafting. Also the most important thing is we hadn’t won a flag in 140 years so it was obvious to anyone with any footy knowledge we were all in and failure was going to effect us in the future yet it’s only the hindsighters complaining now. No one was back then even though you should have seen it coming. Was it worth it for a side with one flag in 140 years. Bloody oath. The best afl years of my life.

 

[ike2112]

For all the flak Lyon gets, look at the players drafted 2009 onwards and tell us how good a job Watters and Richo did of development?
We have one of the worst records of converting draft picks into B-grade or significant contributing players.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

The problem is he's an unbelievable s**t wholeistic coach. He's hyper focused on certain areas but non existent in others.

You are saying unless you are best 22 and able to perform to the level he requires then you're no good in his eyes and won't see the time of day.

No wonder there's a long list of blokes he could never get the best out of. Some of which are very local about him.

No wonder he couldn't get any first round draft picks to be elite players and reach their potential. He always had to have the mature guy.

Which is what makes clarko such an amazing coach. Same for Simpson. Theyre able to appeal and get the best out of everyone on the list.

They know every player is at a different level and time in their career. They work towards getting the best out of them not completely forgetting about them.

Its what killed his career in the end. He could not see a side come through from u18 to finals. He just didn't know how to develop the kids into senior players. He needs someone to be there before him to get them to say a 6-7 out of 10 so he can then put in place the structure to take them to an 8 or 9 out of 10.

The problem is he never reaches the ultimate prize because its all structure and very little on skills development.

Freo over here would spend every session on these out dated structures of his and not much time at all on actual skills development. Wce on the other were all about skill and less to do with structure.

No surprises either then he had not innovated the game at all since Tudor left his side. Its all he had. Tudors game plan from 2008.

Want some interesting reading. Look at the amount of draft picks especially first rounders spent on players and what he was able to develop them into. Its horrific reading.

Then look at his so called wants at the trade table too. Stuff of desperstion and failure.

Then look at the issues with player behaviour becuase of his philosophy of leaving everything at the door.

Hes a good coach but he's amazing flawed in areas. Now the games gone past him and he's now just a poor ineffective coach.

so much of that is sour grapes you could almost open a winery ....
Ross lyons job the whole entire reason he came to St Kilda was to give the saints that extra 10% that Grant Thomas couldnt give us ... and twice he got us within a bee's dick of delivering our second flag ... funny enough when Freo poached him it was under the exact same circumstances where they needed that final 10% to get them their first flag ...
you talk about elite first round draft picks ..
under Ross the club provided him with (now remember the coach is consulted in drafting after GT the club never let the coach control every aspect of it) :
year 1 - Ben McEvoy a player who was part of the best 22 of the team until traded who as a ruckman broke into the team in an acceptable time frame
year 2 - Tom Lynch a player who was earmarked to follow on from Rooey but had no desire to put in 1/100th of the effort to do so the guy who only saw the penny drop when he was traded and then looking like being delisted and enven now is more a role player than super star
year 3 - Nick Winmar a player that im almost certain was chosen by our marketing department
year 4 - Jamie Cripps a player who would become a player aguy who most certainly got his shot but in the end wanted to go home ...

you cannot heap praise on the likes of Clarko without taking into consideration the team he has around him and even with that Clarko has had his fair share of failed draft picks as well you can cherry pick stats and figures all you like and you can pretend that there is some flaw in the coaching style that is the reason he hasnt held up three cups for two of the most success starved clubs in the world of sport but a skills session doent make the ball bounce a wronggun outa Milnes hand , a skills session doesnt make the ball hit the toe not the side of the boot , a skill session doesnt help a team over awed by the big stage ...

Ross Lyon is perhaps one of the most innovative coaches around his mantra is effort pressure and weight of numbers and he is also the most cost efficent coach of the generation he litterally turns average players into game winners and he gets super star players to reach heights un thought of ... i get it you dont like him but the dude can coach and heshould be coaching today ... easailly the most wasted talent we have sitting on TV

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

I think you are Completely wrong. It didn’t matter if you wEre a top 22 player, it mattered if you had an attitude to work

and you are completely wrong with the trades It wasn’t his fault our list manager stuffed up a the salary cap. Also you can’t have it both ways and continually tell our drafting has been terrible for many years but expect a smart couch to continue that terrible drafting. Also the most important thing is we hadn’t won a flag in 140 years so it was obvious to anyone with any footy knowledge we were all in and failure was going to effect us in the future yet it’s only the hindsighters complaining now. No one was back then even though you should have seen it coming. Was it worth it for a side with one flag in 140 years. Bloody oath. The best afl years of my life.

exactly i dont recall anyone screaming for Lynch to replace Rooey in the senior side any thime soon ... i dont remember any of the young players form tearing it up in the VFL pushing for selection at that time ... heck its a fairly common trend that when the AFL team is strong the VFL affiliant is also fairly strong .. remind me again how did our VFL team go in 08,09,10... ?
he pumps up the tyres of Tudor but knocks down lyon yet by definition of their roles tudor had significantly more impact and influence on the upcoming team than Lyon had as the head coach ... StC lives in the fantasy world where he sees Ross Lyon as the evil nutty proffessor whos grand plan was to selfishly lead St Kilda bitterly close to a g/f only to unvile his coaching flaw at the last min of the g/f and make us lose.... and of course in that fantasy world Clarko the knight on the white horse turns everything he looks at into gold ... and now the love affare continues to Adam Simpson whos farts in the coaching box are able to make the moves to get the WCE into finals .... but you know Lyon Baaaaad....