Analysis 2020 List, Game Plan and Best 22?

[caesar88]

IF the younger ones were first to the contest and won the ball, they would dictate what happens next. Heeney can do it sometimes, Rowbottom had a big development year and shows he can do it, Hewett getting better, but you are underestimating the MANDATED ( by Coaches) uber defensive structure!

MAYBE, even if in 2019, Swans had a " Grundy" or "Gawn", there STILL wasn't the mid experience balance in the middle BUT it would have been much more attacking style!?

Mumford was a BIG loss, in part caused by the unanticipated Franklin deal.
He played in a GF last year (5 years on )
Ruckman are far too under rated in many teams. You must have one that can break even mimimum.

Parker is a GUN! Every team/club would want him.

Be careful throwing around the words 'coaches' and 'defensive' on here.

But I'm not sure how the younger ones can be first to the footy to win it if they are so rarely at centre bounces compared to JPK & Parker.

I don't consider rucks to be as important as you do. I once did, until I realised it's actually up to the midfielders to figure out what to do with the ball once they had it, and I still don't believe the rucks cost them that many opportunities. They had them, and they blew a lot of em. (In my opinion.)

We may just have to agree to disagree and I don't just mean you specifically, I mean in general, because for a discussion that's taken up a fair few pages, has anyone's mind actually been changed? Maybe people are allowed to not rate players that much without getting bashed over the head for it, and maybe people can rate/love/hype up a player without getting shat on with reasons why they shouldn't, will put my hand up in that regard.

 

[Corpuscles]

Be careful throwing around the words 'coaches' and 'defensive' on here.

But I'm not sure how the younger ones can be first to the footy to win it if they are so rarely at centre bounces compared to JPK & Parker.

I don't consider rucks to be as important as you do. I once did, until I realised it's actually up to the midfielders to figure out what to do with the ball once they had it, and I still don't believe the rucks cost them that many opportunities. They had them, and they blew a lot of em. (In my opinion.)

We may just have to agree to disagree and I don't just mean you specifically, I mean in general, because for a discussion that's taken up a fair few pages, has anyone's mind actually been changed? Maybe people are allowed to not rate players that much without getting bashed over the head for it, and maybe people can rate/love/hype up a player without getting shat on with reasons why they shouldn't, will put my hand up in that regard.

Fair enough.
Just making a rare contribution and food for thought.

2005 -There would be no "Here it is!" without Ball (ruck not a specialist) having very clever variety of set plays at stoppages … "Nick Davis, I see it! but I don't believe it!"
2013 - Mumford was super important!

Now they (AFL) have changed ruck rules so much it is like Basketball tip offs - Swans were caught out!

Any non intended argument over - you can believe what you want and blame JPK and Parker? - both comp elite!
Cheers & have a great day!

 

[Kummerspeck]

, but you are underestimating the MANDATED ( by Coaches) uber defensive structure!.

I'm interested. What is this super-defensive structure?

 

[caesar88]

Fair enough.
Just making a rare contribution and food for thought.

2005 -There would be no "Here it is!" without Ball (ruck not a specialist) having very clever variety of set plays at stoppages … "Nick Davis, I see it! but I don't believe it!"
2013 - Mumford was super important!

Now they (AFL) have changed ruck rules so much it is like Basketball tip offs - Swans were caught out!

Any non intended argument over - you can believe what you want and blame JPK and Parker? - both comp elite!
Cheers & have a great day!

The contribution is always welcome mate!

 

[TheMase]

I'm interested. What is this super-defensive structure?

They’ll set up defensively in the centre square for an ineffective ruck tap or tap loss. This means they are man on man generally and have a higher degree of focus on what their man is doing.

If you have a ruck that can break even or win more effective hitouts it allows you to take a more attacking approach to winning the ball as you’re more confidence of the ball being tapped to space/advantage.

Sinclair for all his work around the ground generally either loses the tap or drops it at his feet creating congestion.

I don’t have the stats on hand, but from memory we actually had less stoppages overall when Naismith was rucking because it created less repeat stoppages as the intent was to allow for more space to get a clean clearance as opposed to crowding the space with the knowledge the opposition will likely win the ball due to their ruck advantage. So instead of trying to win and clear the ball in space the intent is as much to stop the opposition getting the space and not allowing them to be decisive with their clearance. Then we try and get a turnover from half back and move the ball forward again.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Kummerspeck]

Just my thoughts.

And they're much appreciated, I can't disagree with it as far as the centre set ups go.

 

[Corpuscles]

I'm interested. What is this super-defensive structure?

I have spoken to you before and believe you already aware of it.
Very difficult to explain in this medium but...

Firstly, you would have to recover and re watch some of the 2019 games for example, when Sinclair was playing fit.
The best example I rember was the mid late year game against Cats.

Most of the time the Swans mids set up standing on the defensive side of the opponent. In that game in particular you will see JPK and Parker in particular (sometimes resting) so Hewett Heeney etc not even looking at the ruck tap to read it but concentrating on following Geelong mids. The object was to apply body pressure causing a loose ball. Swans wing men eg Florent or sometimes mid Papley or Heeney would have the role of running loose unaccountable, in hope that JPK or Parker could knock the ball in space or they always had a mid or run in defender back behind , as a sweeper go to if they won the ball.
If either, thought they could not make an effective handball they would take the tackle and reset rather than cause the ball to go loose with the superior faster Cat mids ( particularly Kelly)
Caesar is correct that sometimes Parker instead of taking the tackle (more prone to getting caught HTB than JPK) would just punt it forward which was really just an almost ruby union style, gain ground excerise.

Watch some old games all players trying to be inside and behind their opponent (except some forwards Franklin etc) intent on pushing their opponent towards the boundary, playing percentage game not an attacking style until they got a fast break.

NOT the coaches fault, they had a depleted team, just trying to keep scores low trying to pinch wins.

I could go on but just ranting, watch some games, and as I said, I reckon you are already aware of it.

 

[Punts]

Dogs and the tigers won with very average rucks but probably both have the best mid groups getting around

 

[Angry Red Bull]

I call bullshit on Kennedy and Parker repeatedly ignoring outside running options.

Tend to agree. The speed at which the game is now played and the congestion around the contest is such that it takes 10 or more touches by multiple players sometimes to finally reach a stage where it can be released as a controlled disposal outside. In that framework it’s nighe on impossible for an inside mid to repeatedly ignore a safe disposal outside IMO.

 

[caesar88]

I have spoken to you before and believe you already aware of it.
Very difficult to explain in this medium but...

Firstly, you would have to recover and re watch some of the 2019 games for example, when Sinclair was playing fit.
The best example I rember was the mid late year game against Cats.

Most of the time the Swans mids set up standing on the defensive side of the opponent. In that game in particular you will see JPK and Parker in particular (sometimes resting) so Hewett Heeney etc not even looking at the ruck tap to read it but concentrating on following Geelong mids. The object was to apply body pressure causing a loose ball. Swans wing men eg Florent or sometimes mid Papley or Heeney would have the role of running loose unaccountable, in hope that JPK or Parker could knock the ball in space or they always had a mid or run in defender back behind , as a sweeper go to if they won the ball.
If either, thought they could not make an effective handball they would take the tackle and reset rather than cause the ball to go loose with the superior faster Cat mids ( particularly Kelly)
Caesar is correct that sometimes Parker instead of taking the tackle (more prone to getting caught HTB than JPK) would just punt it forward which was really just an almost ruby union style, gain ground excerise.

Watch some old games all players trying to be inside and behind their opponent (except some forwards Franklin etc) intent on pushing their opponent towards the boundary, playing percentage game not an attacking style until they got a fast break.

NOT the coaches fault, they had a depleted team, just trying to keep scores low trying to pinch wins.

I could go on but just ranting, watch some games, and as I said, I reckon you are already aware of it.

The problem with the punt kick forward though is that 9 out of 10 times it’s a gift to opposition teams. They set up their defence as if they’re waiting for it to land straight in their lap. And it does. Nick Haynes has a field day against us every time for this exact reason. Teams are also so much better at turning a rushed forward entry from the opposition into a counter-attack, which is why it is so easily carried out of our forward 50, because we’ve barely even won the clearance before the opposition’s already off and running.

So it’s all good and well to dismiss the hack kick as just a mechanism of Parker’s game that can’t be helped, but it’s actually very, very costly to our team.

 

[caesar88]

Tend to agree. The speed at which the game is now played and the congestion around the contest is such that it takes 10 or more touches by multiple players sometimes to finally reach a stage where it can be released as a controlled disposal outside. In that framework it’s nighe on impossible for an inside mid to repeatedly ignore a safe disposal outside IMO.

Do you believe that Richmond or West Coast need 10 or more disposals before they can get clean possession? Do you actually believe that?

 

[Corpuscles]

The problem with the punt kick forward though is that 9 out of 10 times it’s a gift to opposition teams. They set up their defence as if they’re waiting for it to land straight in their lap. And it does. Nick Haynes has a field day against us every time for this exact reason. Teams are also so much better at turning a rushed forward entry from the opposition into a counter-attack, which is why it is so easily carried out of our forward 50, because we’ve barely even won the clearance before the opposition’s already off and running.

So it’s all good and well to dismiss the hack kick as just a mechanism of Parker’s game that can’t be helped, but it’s actually very, very costly to our team.

I can agree with that.

Hopefully that is addressed and if it happens he kicks to the flanks . Buddy likes to be behind and I think Parker intends to get it longer but often they are wobbly short ones.
What they need is pace and line breaker in the middle. Stephens /Taylor maybe not 2020 but that will eventually help.

 

[Kummerspeck]

I have spoken to you before and believe you already aware of it.
Very difficult to explain in this medium but...

We actually haven't discussed this, however, as with Mase above I appreciate you articulating your observations.

 

[Corpuscles]

We actually haven't discussed this, however, as with Mase above I appreciate you articulating your observations.

No problem. A pleasure to try ( I am not always correct)
Sorry, I have lost familiarity with posters here (10 years very little to zero posting).
On reflection I think it may have been Wolfgang West? (One of you lot here understand the defensive game plan almost perfectly.)
and TheMase wrote nearly the same thing, whilst I was composing my blather - he knows!

 

[The Gong]

Be careful throwing around the words 'coaches' and 'defensive' on here.

But I'm not sure how the younger ones can be first to the footy to win it if they are so rarely at centre bounces compared to JPK & Parker.

I don't consider rucks to be as important as you do. I once did, until I realised it's actually up to the midfielders to figure out what to do with the ball once they had it, and I still don't believe the rucks cost them that many opportunities. They had them, and they blew a lot of em. (In my opinion.)

We may just have to agree to disagree and I don't just mean you specifically, I mean in general, because for a discussion that's taken up a fair few pages, has anyone's mind actually been changed? Maybe people are allowed to not rate players that much without getting bashed over the head for it, and maybe people can rate/love/hype up a player without getting shat on with reasons why they shouldn't, will put my hand up in that regard.

There's nothing personal in the debate and we are all entitled to our opinions. Disagreeing with you does not equate to hitting you over the head. It's just disagreeing.

I like your contributions because it sparks debate but I generally don't agree with a lot of your conclusions or the logic you applied to get to them. In this instance it feels to me like you're intent on finding Parker and JPK at fault without necessarily allowing for how the team has changed around them which others have pointed out. You obviously don't agree with my conclusions but that's cool.

Fair hit. Play on.

 

[The Gong]

Dogs and the tigers won with very average rucks but probably both have the best mid groups getting around

We did OK when we had 5 or 6 top shelf players running through the midfield as well.

Hawthorn at their peak didn't even care about winning centre clearances. They based their whole game on pressuring the ball carrier so they'd force a turnover and then play high possession footy so they didn't do the same.

 

[The King!]

Dogs and the tigers won with very average rucks but probably both have the best mid groups getting around

They move the ball quickly

Tigers just get it forward and get the guys a chance to beat their opponent


Spot on re ruck, Ruck is overrated unless you have an elite ruck and we don’t

People who think going from Sinclair’s mediocre ruckwork to Naismith slightly supposed ok tap work are waiting for something that won’t make an Arse of difference

Grant Thomas was saying the same thing the other day

 

[Punts]

It’s the midfield that’s garbage atm , not one A grader , no disrespect to Kennedy as he was but can’t rely on a 32 inside mid to keep going much longer.

Parker boarder line A grade for me but still a gun

 

[The King!]

The problem with the punt kick forward though is that 9 out of 10 times it’s a gift to opposition teams. They set up their defence as if they’re waiting for it to land straight in their lap. And it does. Nick Haynes has a field day against us every time for this exact reason. Teams are also so much better at turning a rushed forward entry from the opposition into a counter-attack, which is why it is so easily carried out of our forward 50, because we’ve barely even won the clearance before the opposition’s already off and running.

So it’s all good and well to dismiss the hack kick as just a mechanism of Parker’s game that can’t be helped, but it’s actually very, very costly to our team.

Parker’s hack kicks over his shoulder are awful especially if he is down closer to defence, cost us goals

Sometimes and It’s admirable He tries to take it on himself to impose and try to get the game going and seems imo to get a bit of an adrenaline rush and bangs Away

Dangerfield tries to do too much himself at times too but he is a better player

 

[SGBeach]

They move the ball quickly

Tigers just get it forward and get the guys a chance to beat their opponent


Spot on re ruck, Ruck is overrated unless you have an elite ruck and we don’t

People who think going from Sinclair’s mediocre ruckwork to Naismith slightly supposed ok tap work are waiting for something that won’t make an Arse of difference

Grant Thomas was saying the same thing the other day

Quick ball movement and speed are keys to winning these days.. Think the Swans have shown over the last few drafts that they're keen on this.
Florent, Ling, Stoddart, Mcinerney, Foot are all quick and the recruiters and coaches have commented on this.
This years draft/trade was further proof. Many on here were demanding a big bodied inside mid. However we didn't even bid on GWS academy kid (cant remember his name) which seemed an obvious thing to do, instead we drafted Stephens - a smaller, quicker and more skilful mid.
The swans drafted Rowbottom and Warner as inside mids, havnt seen Warner play, however Im thinking they're quite similar - Big Competitors.. smaller, quicker and maybe more skilful (definitely Rowbottom) than the bigger bodied mids around the equivalent picks.. And all this knowing we have access to two quality, small midfielder types in the 2020 draft.

Seemed last season that the Swans were keen on more than just getting it forward, maybe they were after better quality entries. Better quality entries are often quick entries - love watching Blakeys and Buddys forward 50 entries.

Agree Ruck is overrated (elite rucks aside) maybe its just me being over optimistic , but I reckon Naismith will be an improvement.. how much - we'll find out?

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Do you believe that Richmond or West Coast need 10 or more disposals before they can get clean possession? Do you actually believe that?

Yes. I wouldn’t say it if I don’t believe it. Of course intensity drops off in 4th. You can disagree if you like but actually count the number of touches in a rolling mauls next time. You will be surprised

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

They move the ball quickly

Tigers just get it forward and get the guys a chance to beat their opponent


Spot on re ruck, Ruck is overrated unless you have an elite ruck and we don’t

People who think going from Sinclair’s mediocre ruckwork to Naismith slightly supposed ok tap work are waiting for something that won’t make an Arse of difference

Grant Thomas was saying the same thing the other day

Naismith is able to nullify Grundy/Gawn.

Sinclair is not.

 

[Bloods_sucker]

Not sure if it's just me, but one thing I've noticed especially last year is that we have become much more of a possession team than previously, which I think might've come about from being hurt by turnovers so often in the past. Other teams are in the same boat and this results in a tentative, low risk, low scoring, and predictible style of play. It would be good to see us progress in this area to move the ball more fluently and confidently. Sounds like we're working on it, easy said than done.

And, what's the story with our home record? Is this something to do with ground size and being smashed in contested ball? Would be good to see us improve on this advantage as well

 

[The Gong]

Not sure if it's just me, but one thing I've noticed especially last year is that we have become much more of a possession team than previously, which I think might've come about from being hurt by turnovers so often in the past. Other teams are in the same boat and this results in a tentative, low risk, low scoring, and predictible style of play. It would be good to see us progress in this area to move the ball more fluently and confidently. Sounds like we're working on it, easy said than done.

And, what's the story with our home record? Is this something to do with ground size and being smashed in contested ball? Would be good to see us improve on this advantage as well

Last year was actually the opposite in my opinion. The game plan was obviously trying to move the ball fast and to run in numbers as opposed to the contested grind of past years. When it did work it was beautiful exciting footy. Problem was we have a young team and it didn't always work so when it broke down I think they went back into their shell and chipped the footy around again. I consider it a work in progress. We seem to be recruiting for pacy players with better ball skills so here's hoping.

In regards to our home record I think it's reflective of the change in how we play. When we were a crash and bash contested side we could grind the opposition down, control play and lock it into the forward half. We're now getting trounced in contested footy and when we do turn the ball over on a smaller ground the opposition can move the ball pretty quickly to really hurt us. Turnovers on the SCG will kill you. We're also simply not as good. Lots of young talent but they're going to be inconsistent.

 

[Kiama Chris]

My money’s on Cunningham too. Although the possibility of Ben Ronke was put to Horse when he chatted at the final training session. Might also help remove the 7-goal gorilla on his back. Horse agreed and said they’d tried him there at training a bit. (But you can’t be sure that’s just giving a forward the experience of defending to inform their forward play.)


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I like Cunningham too. Fast, good tackler and a terrific boot. Gives another option to Lloyd on the exit as well.