List Mgmt. 2020 List Management II

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DangerousD said:
Give Higgins a call and let him know we are a better fit, not sure how the Saints will get a trade Done.
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They would need to get Crouch as a free agent and their #14 has to be the deal with something going back their way
Higgins has out performed many of his counterparts from the 2017 draft including the #1 pick Cam Rayner

I'm hoping he stays he is very much a footballer with upside and X factor but just out of interest for you guys who probably have not watched him alot
We would all agree that Jack Martin has had a good year im thinking. just compare Jack Higgins (21 year old with no pre season and brain surgery late last year) career stats to Jack Martins 2020 stats. Think you might be surprised

Jack Martin and Jack Higgins AFL Stats Comparison

Jack Martin and Jack Higgins AFL Stats Comparison.
www.footywire.com
 
Opine said:
We WERE in a position to best exploit that process, until your mate supposedly got all political. Hopefully he'll be less so at his next gig.
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We were in a position to exploit this process but now we magically aren’t because we supposedly offered Betts a little more than SOS liked?

I guess going out and getting Williams as a free agent and getting Saad isn’t exploiting the process and is all a political ploy by the CEO.

I would love to hear your reasoning on, how we were in a position to capitalise on banking salary cap space if SOS was here, but now he’s gone we magically aren’t?
 

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THE_GUN said:
They would need to get Crouch as a free agent and their #14 has to be the deal with something going back their way
Higgins has out performed many of his counterparts from the 2017 draft including the #1 pick Cam Rayner

I'm hoping he stays he is very much a footballer with upside and X factor but just out of interest for you guys who probably have not watched him alot
We would all agree that Jack Martin has had a good year im thinking. just compare Jack Higgins (21 year old with no pre season and brain surgery late last year) career stats to Jack Martins 2020 stats. Think you might be surprised

Jack Martin and Jack Higgins AFL Stats Comparison

Jack Martin and Jack Higgins AFL Stats Comparison.
www.footywire.com
Click to expand...
I like Higgins but even someone like Gibbons would stack up well against Martin statistically. Statistically Martin is vanilla as you can get.
 
THE_GUN said:
They would need to get Crouch as a free agent and their #14 has to be the deal with something going back their way
Higgins has out performed many of his counterparts from the 2017 draft including the #1 pick Cam Rayner

I'm hoping he stays he is very much a footballer with upside and X factor but just out of interest for you guys who probably have not watched him alot
We would all agree that Jack Martin has had a good year im thinking. just compare Jack Higgins (21 year old with no pre season and brain surgery late last year) career stats to Jack Martins 2020 stats. Think you might be surprised

Jack Martin and Jack Higgins AFL Stats Comparison

Jack Martin and Jack Higgins AFL Stats Comparison.
www.footywire.com
Click to expand...

I didn’t think Saints had a 1st rounder, I must have assumed that for some reason.
 
HavUEvaSeenTheRain said:
I like Higgins but even someone like Gibbons would stack up well against Martin statistically. Statistically Martin is vanilla as you can get.
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Probably better if i explain what i see as the type of player Higgins will end up like

I see higgins becoming a mid that plays 30% foward in a similar way that Shane Edwards does but with a bit of Dion Pretia mix
He will probably become a player that averages around 20-21 touches and kicks about 20 goals a year.

He s not a true small foward but can play that role to a very good level, Has very good endurance and can run just about all day without having elite speed
Markov is the player i would be looking at if i was Carlton
 
Gethelred said:
What you said was this:

... and where I disagree is in how simplistic your opinion is, a simple diametry that is an either/or proposition.

LOB is not physically a big player. He's spent the last three years being pushed off the ball, so - from your side of it - you look and you see someone not pulling their weight. What I see is more complex than that; I see a player early on who was quite gunshy from contact turning over the course of six months (in his first season, just so we're clear; I'll get to Teague in a second) to a player who if he made a blue threw himself at contest after contest after contest to try and make it up. To put this into appropriate context, there is a patch of play I can clearly remember from his first season where he missed the ball on his first go, and went to make it up six times in the next passage of play; Jack Silvagni is our barometer as far as repeat efforts and never say die goes, and he'd have been proud of that effort. The difference there is, Jack's borderline KPP height and is strong, where in his first season LOB would've been lucky to weigh 45 kilos in the wet whilst wearing a woolen jumper.

You cannot criticise someone for their physical limitations, not when they're immediately subject to change. He's grown, put on weight across the shoulder. He's not the same prospect he was back then, and your views of him are out of date by 12 months. The reason he's not got into the ones is because we traded in Newnes - someone who was considered to be the heir apparent at St Kilda as the next captain, before his star faded following Richardson's demise - who is bigger, and just that bit more in every way than he is. And there is no way in hell he'd have unseated Walsh from the other wing.

Teague in late 2019 unleashed the young blokes, had them playing attacking footy, and LOB went again from someone looking like he was petrified of making a mistake to someone who rolled with the punches. He ran with the ball, he kicked with precision and he looked daring, but the big thing there is that he was less able to be knocked off the ball. Those repeat efforts were less needed, because he made less mistakes.

The issue with him defensively is that - as stated - he's small. In the context of an AFL midfield, he's only just getting towards an AFL weight range now (listed at 78kg on footywire). If you're a developed mid, you're bigger than he is; if you're a developed forward, you're bigger than he is. So, not a renowned tackler predraft, light and easily bodied; both of which can be excused in a winger and a kid.

To extrapolate that over to 'Not hard at the ball... Defense non-existent' is akin to calling a kid's version of Picasso shithouse, and throwing it in the bin.
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So you agree then, good. As i like him too.. my point was he is not ready as a afl footballer.. which u state also.. Hes young and needs more time..
 
scblues said:
So you agree then, good. As i like him too.. my point was he is not ready as a afl footballer.. which u state also.. Hes young and needs more time..
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:rolleyes:

You said X. I said it's not that simple. You said we agree.

Perhaps you could attempt reading the words before you. It might assist with that flippant attitude.
 
scblues said:
So you agree then, good. As i like him too.. my point was he is not ready as a afl footballer.. which u state also.. Hes young and needs more time..
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If people want to be real, then be real... Its afl.. Does he have upside, absolutely... Is he ready? Obviously not or he would be playing.. Compare apples and apples to be a afl footballer.. He has deficiencies which they are working on.. Just like other kids and footballers.. Im not saying he cant be a afl footballer, but if u think he should be playing now then over who? someone who has the traits he is missing? Sorry, afl teams that win have depth.. He will get better and his time will come when he gets better..
 
Opine said:
Before I answer, is your CEO likely to prefer to partially bank SC space for future benifit, or spend it all now to keep membership numbers up; as you’ve been advocating in this discussion?
Click to expand...

As I stated earlier, we are able to pay over the cap next year (like we are this year) due to paying under the cap in 2018 and 2019, next we we are not.

So going off that, without knowing him or asking him, I’d suggest we will be spending it, in line with AFL rules.
 
THE_GUN said:
Probably better if i explain what i see as the type of player Higgins will end up like

I see higgins becoming a mid that plays 30% foward in a similar way that Shane Edwards does but with a bit of Dion Pretia mix
He will probably become a player that averages around 20-21 touches and kicks about 20 goals a year.

He s not a true small foward but can play that role to a very good level, Has very good endurance and can run just about all day without having elite speed
Markov is the player i would be looking at if i was Carlton
Click to expand...

Puzzling why a young kid who has looked pretty good, is on the table at your club who is coming to the end of a run of success, I would have thought youngsters after 3 years of development, would be the last ones to be moved on.

I rate him, but why don’t the Tigs
 
DangerousD said:
Puzzling why a young kid who has looked pretty good, is on the table at your club who is coming to the end of a run of success, I would have thought youngsters after 3 years of development, would be the last ones to be moved on.

I rate him, but why don’t the Tigs
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Because they have to find money somewhere to pay up and coming stars a payrise
 

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DangerousD said:
As I stated earlier, we are able to pay over the cap next year (like we are this year) due to paying under the cap in 2018 and 2019, next we we are not.

So going off that, without knowing him or asking him, I’d suggest we will be spending it, in line with AFL rules.
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I’d suggest its not as clear cut as that. As an example, the required SC spend can be satisfied by bringing forward salary payments of 2 recruits, thereby creating SC space at a later stage: or it can all be spent now by signing a third or even a fourth recruit willing to come.

A decision maker concerned with facilitating ongoing success may be more likely to adopt the former strategy; SOS was in that camp hence why he has been mentioned. A decision maker concerned merely with the now may be more likely to piss it all away for the sake of immediate impact; you appear to be arguing predominantly for the now. It’s not unreasonable to assume, and or at least inquire whether, you’re mirroring the preference of our informal LM.
 
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katmanblue said:
It would murder our salary cap going forward.

900k for a 32 yo Treloar who'll probably be missing 12 games with injury in 2024-5. (Yeah it's pessimistic, but I not unrealistic)

No thanks.

Rather take Saad and Williams. Front load Saad and Williams and Cripps.

Use the money to throw 800k at either Oliver or Merrett next year.

Maybe have a sniff at someone like Higgins who we aren't looking at now, but might come into consideration if (as is unfortunately likely) the Oliver falls over. Maybe have another chat with Papley.

On SM-N960F using BigFooty.com mobile app
Click to expand...
Pies would have to pay some of it.
 
THE_GUN said:
Probably better if i explain what i see as the type of player Higgins will end up like

I see higgins becoming a mid that plays 30% foward in a similar way that Shane Edwards does but with a bit of Dion Pretia mix
He will probably become a player that averages around 20-21 touches and kicks about 20 goals a year.

He s not a true small foward but can play that role to a very good level, Has very good endurance and can run just about all day without having elite speed
Markov is the player i would be looking at if i was Carlton
Click to expand...

I think there is more to his illness then been advertised.
AFL is a brutal game and I’m not sure he’ll be able to survive. No inside info just a gut feel.
 
Opine said:
I’d suggest its not as clear cut as that. As an example, the required SC spend can be satisfied by bringing forward salary payments of 2 recruits, thereby creating SC space at a later stage: or it can all be spent now by signing a third or even a fourth recruit willing to come.

A decision maker concerned with facilitating ongoing success may be more likely to adopt the former strategy; SOS was in that camp hence why he has been mentioned. A decision maker concerned merely with the now may be more likely to piss it all away for the sake of immediate impact; you appear to be arguing predominantly for the now. It’s not unreasonable to assume, and or at least inquire whether, you’re mirroring the preference of our informal LM.
Click to expand...

Youre right as I am arguing for the now, it seems the club is pushing for that too, we got our cap in order to do exactly this. You say SOS was concerned with ongoing success and not worried about the now, it’s totally not true, not even close, in 2018 we pushed very hard to recruit Shiel and we fell just short, in 2019 we went hard for Papley and Cogs and fell just short, Shiel and Cognilio would both be on around $900,000 a season, the idea that SOS didn’t try and get good players in isn’t true, he tried and we fell short, mostly due to us being down the bottom of the ladder.

You say things like, it seems the current decision maker is pissing away the money for immediate impact, as a Carlton fan I’m sure you’re aware that next year is our 6th season since we started our rebuild, trading for needs at this stage and earlier was always the plan, it has been made clear in our actions the last two trade periods.

Am I mirroring the preference of our supposed informal LM as you say For immediate impact next year, um yes, I think I mirror every Carlton supporter, we went to the draft 5 years in a row, we underpaid our salary cap to chase senior players, SOS did it and now Austin is doing it.

How one is a long term visionary and the other is pissing the money against the wall for immediate success when they are doing the same thing as each other, is lost on me.
 
SurreyBlue said:
I think there is more to his illness then been advertised.
AFL is a brutal game and I’m not sure he’ll be able to survive. No inside info just a gut feel.
Click to expand...
Dont think there is anything medical as he was cleared by the surgeons to train and play alot earlier than first expected
But i do think that Jake Aarts performances combined with list sizes and Maurice Rioli expected to come would mean too many players similar to Higgins on the list.

I watch a lot of football and specially my team and usually watch the winning games 2 times during this covid lockdown,Higgins Imo played well but would be better in 2021 due to having better fitness and conditioning he has lost during the period he was unable to train after the surgery.
He has had virtually no pre season and still managed to get 10 games this year. I think he would be a good get but its just my opinion and i have no influence or knowledge in where he goes. But I also posted on the carlton board that when gibbons was drafted he was a great get for Carlton and was never a fan of McGovern so lets see how they turn out.
 
DangerousD said:
Youre right as I am arguing for the now, it seems the club is pushing for that too, we got our cap in order to do exactly this. You say SOS was concerned with ongoing success and not worried about the now, it’s totally not true, not even close, in 2018 we pushed very hard to recruit Shiel and we fell just short, in 2019 we went hard for Papley and Cogs and fell just short, Shiel and Cognilio would both be on around $900,000 a season, the idea that SOS didn’t try and get good players in isn’t true, he tried and we fell short, mostly due to us being down the bottom of the ladder.

You say things like, it seems the current decision maker is pissing away the money for immediate impact, as a Carlton fan I’m sure you’re aware that next year is our 6th season since we started our rebuild, trading for needs at this stage and earlier was always the plan, it has been made clear in our actions the last two trade periods.

Am I mirroring the preference of our supposed informal LM as you say For immediate impact next year, um yes, I think I mirror every Carlton supporter, we went to the draft 5 years in a row, we underpaid our salary cap to chase senior players, SOS did it and now Austin is doing it.

How one is a long term visionary and the other is pissing the money against the wall for immediate success when they are doing the same thing as each other, is lost on me.
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As I’ve been writing all along, the answer lays somewhere in the middle; it’s time to spend and see some benefits come home, but not to the extent that the ability to maintain a perpetual advantage is pissed away.

Until recently, supporters, and consequently the club, were committed to the pursuit of sustainable success. Our informal LM seems to have totally switched focus to the here and now. I’m not about to swallow what’s dished out without questioning. I sense we’ve switched from a strategy that’s goal achieving to one that’s tension relieving. I’ve been around long enough to be concerned.
 
I have my doubts over O'Brien making it on a wing. Not strong enough in the body or at the contests. The days of purely outside wingmen are long gone. Maybe he matures in that area but I'm not confident he will.

I'd be playing him as a forward more. Has skills and may have the tank for repeat efforts and two way running so could provide good pressure and be an offensive option. May have potential as a high half forward. Has done the odd nice thing around goal on limited opportunity.

Trade wise, probably not an option.
 
gbatman said:
I have my doubts over O'Brien making it on a wing. Not strong enough in the body or at the contests. The days of purely outside wingmen are long gone. Maybe he matures in that area but I'm not confident he will.

I'd be playing him as a forward more. Has skills and may have the tank for repeat efforts and two way running so could provide good pressure and be an offensive option. May have potential as a high half forward. Has done the odd nice thing around goal on limited opportunity.

Trade wise, probably not an option.
Click to expand...
Not strong enough between the ears is my take on LOB. Hope he proves me wrong.

On SM-N960F using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
gbatman said:
I have my doubts over O'Brien making it on a wing. Not strong enough in the body or at the contests. The days of purely outside wingmen are long gone. Maybe he matures in that area but I'm not confident he will.

I'd be playing him as a forward more. Has skills and may have the tank for repeat efforts and two way running so could provide good pressure and be an offensive option. May have potential as a high half forward. Has done the odd nice thing around goal on limited opportunity.

Trade wise, probably not an option.
Click to expand...
Similarly to our conversation(s) with Dow, have you been following any of the seconds game reports?

Those games have been played without wings, forcing him inside. Apparently, he's doing okay, but he has to continue to work on that side of his game; this should come as no surprise, because even after 3 seasons he's still only 78kg, about 3-4 short of where he should be as a standard AFL midfielder.

These games might be a bit mickey mouse, but if it means he gets genuine time working on deficiencies...
 
O'Brien - Opportunity is a wonderful thing.

That opportunity was deprived to him last year with the acquisition of Newnes.
I understand Teague wanting some maturity in his squad, but with so many quality young players underneath, some are going to miss out.

I'd like to think that the club have told Dow & O'Brien exactly what they need of them next year and what will trigger opportunity.
Moving on O'Brien for anything less than a pick in the 20's makes for a .....'what the * for?' moment, unless LOB himself has been courted by others and chooses to leave for opportunity.

I watched some of his work yesterday and given what our squad may look like next year, there's a fit for him.
I want him to stay, but can understand why he may want to leave.
 
Here is my left field trade idea.
A 3 way trade between Carlton, Collingwood and Fremantle.

Carlton get Treloar and we pay 100% of his salary.
Collingwood get Hogan the forward they need and save some cap space.
Fremantle get McGovern that IMO is a good fit for them and they could probably get the best out of him as a swingman.
 
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