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List Mgmt. 2020 List Management II

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Possible line-ups -

Docherty Jones Plowman
Saad Weitering Marchbank

TDK Cripps Williams
Walsh Setterfield Williamson

Martin McKay Fisher
Betts CCurnow McGovern

IC: ECurnow SPS Murphy Fogarty


Cottrell Parks Newman
Kemp ****** Philp

Pittonet Stocker Dow
Newnes Kennedy O'Brien

Gibbons Casboult Honey
Cuningham JSilvagni Owies

IC: Durdin Ramsay Carroll

Really stands out that we had an overabundance of talls a couple of years ago and now we're somewhat skinny.
The ****** is for the last list spot.

One thing that does stand out though - We look quick. Maybe that's the trick.
 
Blue and Blue said:
We had two of them KPD's and they didnt develop..what good is another that doesnt ?
Reckon they will play Casboult back and see how Kemp goes. Plus the young rookie Parks will fill out nice over a couple of preseasons.
Plenty of options.
Click to expand...

That's not the point of the discussion though

Targets were stated as small forward, a mid and a developing KPD

2 out of 3

Good result, but didn't achieve the directive, which Harker clearly knows but once again wants to create his own narrative
 
HARKER said:
Possible line-ups -

Docherty Jones Plowman
Saad Weitering Marchbank

TDK Cripps Williams
Walsh Setterfield Williamson

Martin McKay Fisher
Betts CCurnow McGovern

IC: ECurnow SPS Murphy Fogarty


Cottrell Parks Newman
Kemp ****** Philp

Pittonet Stocker Dow
Newnes Kennedy O'Brien

Gibbons Casboult Honey
Cuningham JSilvagni Owies

IC: Durdin Ramsay Carroll

Really stands out that we had an overabundance of talls a couple of years ago and now we're somewhat skinny.
The ****** is for the last list spot.

One thing that does stand out though - We look quick. Maybe that's the trick.
Click to expand...

3 of Newman, Newnes, Gibbons Levi will play all year
 

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Blue and Blue said:
We had two of them KPD's and they didnt develop..what good is another that doesnt ?
Reckon they will play Casboult back and see how Kemp goes. Plus the young rookie Parks will fill out nice over a couple of preseasons.
Plenty of options.
Click to expand...
Exactly Casboult and Mcgovern if need be are flexible and can be moved back if necessary .
 
Arr0w said:
That's not the point of the discussion though

Targets were stated as small forward, a mid and a developing KPD

2 out of 3

Good result, but didn't achieve the directive, which Harker clearly knows but once again wants to create his own narrative
Click to expand...
God knows I want nothing to do with an Arrow/Harker back and forth, but why would you already be dismissive of Parks as a developing KPD?

Should he be 193 instead of 192cm?
 
As the list sits at this very minute, we are 1 KP defender and 1 KP forward/ruck short.
With one list spot to fill, we will need to address one of these positions.
The question is, have we gone too far the opposite way, in our list management this off season?
 
Lets be honest, the draft last night and today wont impact much in 2021 and probably not much in 2022 - it again falls at the feet of the following to lift and cement a spot based on really good output:
Dow
Obrien
SPS
McKay
Fisher
Cuningham
Williamson
Silvagni
Gibbons
Setterfield

Some have done it to a degree - Setterfield, McKay and SPS.....others have done it for a few games and some need to get their ass in to gear or it could be curtains (Dow, Obrien, Cuningham)
 
SurreyBlue said:
As the list sits at this very minute, we are 1 KP defender and 1 KP forward/ruck short.
With one list spot to fill, we will need to address one of these positions.
The question is, have we gone too far the opposite way, in our list management this off season?
Click to expand...

How are we 1 KP/Ruck short? (i presume you mean a fwd who rucks while ruckman sits?)

We have Dekoning and Casboult? I dont see the reason to have another one on the list
 
If Harry gets his confidence up and kicks at goal like Levi was early this season, that's probably enough for us to win 2-3 more games. His set shot kicking this year was so deflating in key moments this year. Jack Martin is a technically stunning kick for goal but he also lost his confidence in front of the big sticks and as a result, cost us momentum on a number of key occasions.

I think our youthful and somewhat skinny players got overpowered with the shorter quarters early in the season. We had a number of endurance runners who were getting brushed aside when the heat was on early in the game and we weren't able to exploit our strength in endurance running as the sting died out later in the game because matches were so abbreviated.

It won't take much improvement for us to claim a spot in the finals. Just need to seize the moments.
 
Arr0w said:
That's not the point of the discussion though

Targets were stated as small forward, a mid and a developing KPD

2 out of 3

Good result, but didn't achieve the directive, which Harker clearly knows but once again wants to create his own narrative
Click to expand...
3 out of 3 in my book..what is Parks at 19 but a growing big defender?
 

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Christou2Kouta said:
If Harry gets his confidence up and kicks at goal like Levi was early this season, that's probably enough for us to win 2-3 more games. His set shot kicking this year was so deflating in key moments this year. Jack Martin is a technically stunning kick for goal but he also lost his confidence in front of the big sticks and as a result, cost us momentum on a number of key occasions.

I think our youthful and somewhat skinny players got overpowered with the shorter quarters early in the season. We had a number of endurance runners who were getting brushed aside when the heat was on early in the game and we weren't able to exploit our strength in endurance running as the sting died out later in the game because matches were so abbreviated.

It won't take much improvement for us to claim a spot in the finals. Just need to seize the moments.
Click to expand...

Jack Martin was putrid in front of goal in big moments (either kill the game or get us back into it) - choked massively a number of occasions, not as much as the skipper but bloody close. In general i reckon he was slightly overrated for his output this year - sure was great in quite a few games, really good in a few more, serviceable in a few more and pretty ordinary in about 5-6 games. Needs to get it another 5-6 times a game (and probably will with qtrs going back to 20 mins :think: ) - thought he went missing too often in quite a few games.
 
HARKER said:
Possible line-ups -

Docherty Jones Plowman
Saad Weitering Marchbank

TDK Cripps Williams
Walsh Setterfield Williamson

Martin McKay Fisher
Betts CCurnow McGovern

IC: ECurnow SPS Murphy Fogarty
Click to expand...

Looks really good, but just would have Gibbons in instead of Fog.

Arr0w said:
3 of Newman, Newnes, Gibbons Levi will play all year
Click to expand...

That's a bit of a stretch. I'd correct it to "2 of Newman, Newnes, Gibbons and Levi will play for the majority of the year but not all".
 
Arr0w said:
I prefer 195+, taller, longer levers
Click to expand...
Which is a preference...certainly doesn't discount him as a KPD.

What is his wingspan? Shoulder height? Can easily counter a couple of cm if they measure in his favour. Which combined with good athleticism and ability to read the ball in the air give him a punchers chance from the rookie list.
 
SurreyBlue said:
As the list sits at this very minute, we are 1 KP defender and 1 KP forward/ruck short.
Click to expand...

I used to think we needed a KP forward/ruck, but not anymore.

KPF - Charlie, McKay, Levi, Gov, Kennedy, JSOS, TDK, Kemp.

R - TDK, Pitto, Levi, McKay (Teague said it's a big possibility for Harry to pinch hit)

A key defender yes, we need one. But I don't think we need another ruck.
 

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BigBreakfast said:
Mate, he has had a couple of runs and won us a game. Give me a spell. Our list is better and we took a flyer on Saad who has already shown up to training and has elite skills. Cox or Reid weren't going to get us into the finals this year, Saad is more likely to do so. There will be a a Winder next year but there won’t be an elite 26 year old defender.
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That's an absurd contrast to shift all that into: Winder's non-selection has nothing to do with Saad. Saad also doesn't have elite skills, and that's very well documented and evidenced.

What's additionally absurd is that you treat the pick as fixed currency. Don't pot my ability to analyse when you're turning a game of chess into checkers.

HavUEvaSeenTheRain said:
I think you are overrating kids no clubs rate very highly. Gibbons earned his spot and it’s more a culture type call then a list management one which is extremely important when actually dealing with people. That’s why Richmond are winning flags and GWS aren’t.

The margins between the best and worst are also often exaggerated. All clubs make constant mistakes and all clubs rely on other teams taking guys like Scully and Trengove ahead of Martin for example. The best run club has probably been Geelong yet they have an abysmal record of spotting early talent and even developing them and look at their trade tonight where the majority thinks they have made a mistake. The best clubs have all also paid apparent overs to get what they want.

No doubt we will have missed an opportunity tonight just like all the best clubs have too. I also thought we had missed an opportunity not cutting Polson, Finbar, etc early and having another pick in the draft but the same could also be said about Jones and from other clubs someone like Menegola.
Click to expand...
The timing of Polson and Finbar being cut had no impact on our draft hand, not sure where you're getting that from.

The Greek Freak said:
There was also 16 other clubs who didn't take them. Probably a reason.
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Winder was on the board, we had list space, end of story. Why we didn't like the kid, I don't know, but historically we will have either had character or homesickness concerns. Where we differ from many clubs, is that we are very risk-averse in that space.

BlueTongue said:
I agree on the more value to be had call, but in the end, when you look at recently successful teams like Hawthorn and Geelong, they have not been fussed in handing over slight overs in order to get their man.

Also, I think we had to be particularly careful with Saad, as we are only just beginning to be seen as a destination club and couldn’t be seen to leave players hanging who are willing to come. It was made worse by the fact it was * and Dodo who is not interested in getting deals done, just being seen to be the uncompromising force.

Over all, I’m not fussed on Newman or Gibbons, though I think they would be stiff to be cut, and don’t agree at all on my man Cotters, who in the few games he’s played, at least shows confidence and purpose, unlike a few others on our list with all the skills in the world, but no idea what to do with the ball. Deers in headlights.

I think we have been down so long we have all been obsessed with the draft and who we cut from the list, instead this year I think we are starting to get a list that is strong enough to open the window and starting to gel, so we need to have more confidence in the playing group to deliver before we swing the axe again.
Click to expand...
I don't agree on valuing Saad in the same bracket as Cameron or Dangerfield, but I'm not sure which Hawthorn trades you're referring to? Wingard?

That's a question of on-field application versus raw talent, I suppose, but Wingard remains a player than can flex between being a star forward and a star midfielder.

We should always be obsessed with the draft. We have a whole section of the business dedicated to that and list strategy, so the idea that they can be frustrated into making decisions by so many other clubs (and even internal stakeholders) should be a source of enormous disappointment.

bigblueboy said:
36 Senior players
4 Category A Rookies
1 Category B International Rookie

We’ve met the minimum list requirements but still have the potential to add up to two more main list/Cat A.
Click to expand...
37 on the senior list. Is Kennedy confirmed as re-rookied?
 
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Ash24 said:
Could not agree more, apart from Weiters, Walsh and McKay, we haven't really seen any consistent development from any of our other first/second round draftees.

C. Curnow, Cunners, Fisher, SPS, JSOS, Dow, O'Brien, Stocker, Kemp, Philp, Setters, Kennedy, TDK.

Some definitely are on the road to becoming A graders, but we need to see more. If from the names mentioned we could get at least another five B+/A graders, I'd be happy. Most these blokes are entering years 4, 5 and 6 of their of the careers, so they need to show more in my opinion.
Click to expand...

I've seen enough consistency from Fisher, JSOS, Curnow and Setters to know what we are going to get if fit.

The rest have work to do.
 
Brutalitops said:
Ideally 200+ imo as 200+ forwards seem to be the trend. But I suppose if theyre quick enough and clever enough the height part becomes negotiable.
Click to expand...
In his draft summary, Austin talks about “add ons” to preseason training that they want to have a look at. Perhaps there is a taller young/mature defender who we will seriously look at.
 
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