List Mgmt. 2020 List Management II

[Kramer1]

We haven't been risk averse. It's bollocks.

 

[FRUMPY]

From top to bottom, list is in the best spot it’s been for years. Now it’s over to the players and coaches to get us back playing finals. We’ve got the talent. No more excuses

Nek minute, Friday rnd 1......

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[FRUMPY]

I've seen enough consistency from Fisher, JSOS, Curnow and Setters to know what we are going to get if fit.

The rest have work to do.

Yikes.....Fisher - gotten worse each season, JSOS hasn't gotten past being a bit player, Charlie can't get fit and setters has gotten better each year.

Fisher and JSOS are the types we need to lift to get better, and lift considerably

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[FRUMPY]

I don't rate where the Saints are at personally, but they still targeted more of a speed/endurance blend than we have. Richmond have long been selecting athletic projects that we have bypassed. Lions are the same too.

We don't share the same talent ID philosophies of those three clubs.

Culturally, we seem to be more entranced by a cohesive locker room than building anything that genuinely puts the club and its ideals ahead of the playing group, and that's always going to undermine us. There are players within the group who are trying to drive the way of thinking I'm describing, but they shouldn't be doing it by themselves, with coaches playing favourites for flimsy reasons and tactical incompetence, and a CEO who too readily meddles in player acquisition without a clear purpose pertaining to his own organisational responsibilities and skill set.

One or two of these issues, I'm fine with so long as they're acknowledged and attempted to be addressed, but we're approaching double digits.

Saints are destined for spots 5-8 for the next 4 years. The North Melbourne under laidley type of side

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[Blue Rising 21]

Yikes.....Fisher - gotten worse each season, JSOS hasn't gotten past being a bit player, Charlie can't get fit and setters has gotten better each year.

Fisher and JSOS are the types we need to lift to get better, and lift considerably

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Forwards are a hard line to judge players ability on. As it is based on inside 50 disposal accuracy and kick to advantage. If we had Pendelbury in his prime, JSOS and Fisher would have more impact and goals. We haven’t had anyone close to pendlebury or Sam Mitchell delivering inside 50. Or like Cameron.

I think you will find both the players will end up highly rated as we go into the 8 and higher.

Another example of how the forward rating works is Betts was great for us but in a top 4 side in Adelaide, he was legendary. Fisher will end up with a highly rated name based on good supply.

Waite was arguably a better forward at North than for us. Simply based on ladder position. North were mid table and we were atrocious and bottom. JSOS will produce.

 

[Michael Jezz]

From top to bottom, list is in the best spot it’s been for years. Now it’s over to the players and coaches to get us back playing finals. We’ve got the talent. No more excuses

Coaching department is where I think our weakness lies but that is an old story from me aka more finals, premiership experience....time will tell

 

[JustaBattler]

Yikes.....Fisher - gotten worse each season, JSOS hasn't gotten past being a bit player, Charlie can't get fit and setters has gotten better each year.

Fisher and JSOS are the types we need to lift to get better, and lift considerably

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Would be really nice to see developing replacements for Ed/Levi/Betts and Murphy - most if not all these blokes will gone in 1-2 years time.

 

[Jimmae]

So, let me get this right, by not selecting Winder we are displaying a risk averse nature in drafting and recruiting overall. I agree that we have been risk averse but, there is rarely much risk in footy recruiting these days as kids are immersed in cultural value adding from their earliest days when their talent becomes apparent. There is too much media around to walk on the wrong side of the line and the trigger is pulled if they do: Elijah Taylor, Chris Yarran, Brock McLean

Brock Mclean

Age

39

Ht

184cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.7

5star

K

10.9

4star

HB

8.9

5star

M

4.1

4star

T

3.9

5star

CL

4.1

5star

No current season stats available

D

10.8

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

3.8

3star

M

1.6

2star

T

1.8

4star

...

If we are selecting solid citizens, I’d have though that was a good thing given any elite athlete contains a requisite amount of confidence, arrogance and mongrel to even make it in the first place.

As for your personal attacks, you have proven that you can eloquently elevate a personal affront using anecdote and opinion. This is a common and flawed approach in debating, one that astute judges overlook for justifiable, contextual argument.

Goodnight, farewell and adieu.

Again: shallow analysis, failure to comprehend what was expressly written for you, and then an incredibly naïve take on what footballers can and cannot get away with in their private lives.

Then you top it off by pretending you haven't been trying to bait me for what must be over 6 months at this point. All this because I rightly called you out for crappy analysis in a match thread one time. I stand by that opinion, and it again applies here.

Guess I'll just hit the block button and you'll have to be content with the knowledge your posts slide straight past me into the bin. Bye!

 

[thylacine60]

Jimster goes Bang on Hashy!!

 

[BigBreakfast]

Jimster goes Bang on Hashy!!

Because he doesn’t like being questioned.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Yikes.....Fisher - gotten worse each season, JSOS hasn't gotten past being a bit player, Charlie can't get fit and setters has gotten better each year.

Fisher and JSOS are the types we need to lift to get better, and lift considerably

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Fisher looked good when he came back this year and his second year was his best. He's played enough for us to know what he can do going forward.

JSOS has versatility .. bit player = utility. You know you can't play with 22 BOGs right?

Charlie has shown he is a gun. We don't have to sweat on what sort of player he is, only his fitness.

 

[The Return of the Paf]

Your common sense, application of a rational thought process and solid back up of statistical data is unwanted in these parts.

View attachment 1026256

Probably because it's cherry-picked.

 

[BigBreakfast]

Probably because it's cherry-picked.

If by cherry picked, you mean researched of reputable websites then, yeah, it’s cherry picked.

 

[The Return of the Paf]

I recognise you're mixing your point in with some whimsical references, but not one of those names has come in the last two administrations.

The later the draft gets, the more we pick meat and potatoes players, with a low risk of being incompetent at state/reserve level, rather than players with multiple elite attributes.

Our rookie list and late pick success stories have dried up compared to the competition.


That was never the implication. He offers a skill set we sorely need, and we've decided he's not worth the risk. West Coast immediately made a different decision.

In any other draft, these are decisions being made at the end of the 3rd round. Is our list looking balanced enough, and firing on enough cylinders that we should be satisfied to pass on that sort of talent?



On his best behaviour here for the most part, but what's the issue with his character? Biggest football issue I see with him are the consistency of his first few steps, but I'd be pretty confident that would get ironed out in a professional environment.

Kid can play, and frankly looks like he'll play in his first year.


Ok then, take a look at the teamboard in my signature and point out any errors, because I'm seeing 37/4/1.

We ended the season 39/6/1, we cut 3 rookies, 8 off the senior list, elevated one player: 32/2/1

We brought in 3 players in players via trade and free agency, 2 via the national draft, 1 via the rookie draft, 1 re-rookie: 37/4/1

What am I getting wrong?


Yeah sure, the part of my post where I switch to talking about the ability to trade draft picks is entirely about Winder, and not about your blockhead opinion on drafting Nik Cox or Zach Reid instead of acquiring Adam Saad

42

Adam Saad

Age

31

Ht

178cm

Wt

79kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.5

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

7.5

5star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.7

4star

MG

349.1

5star

D

20.7

5star

K

12.0

5star

HB

8.7

4star

M

3.3

3star

T

2.4

3star

MG

388.3

5star

D

17.6

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

7.2

5star

M

4.2

4star

T

1.2

3star

.

As for citing common sense and common opinion as evidence of intelligent decision making one way or another: what is common is exactly that, and inherently only that. It is not reflective of intelligent decision making, it is simply what most people are doing.

RE: Saad's stats, we've been over this, a lot: Saad runs a substantial amount of his metres gained, and has a poor success rate disposing into the 50 because of his skill execution, game style and how that would see him forward of centre. His disposal rate runs high because - shock horror - he handballs more than most people that play his position. It's also increased this year comparative to the competition because the shorter quarters advantage his extremely elite anaerobic endurance.

Saad knows his strengths, and knows his limitations. I look forward to you slowly learning about them.

Please show some restraint and not quote me for something like the 10th time in 24 hours with this absolute pabulum, complete with faux-affectionate nickname. Take some time to consider your actual opinion, in depth, then feel free to quote me then. I look forward to actually seeing you properly read one of my posts instead of scrambling to find a way to tell me I'm wrong and being over the top.

Credit to you, by the way: you are uncommon.


Well that was an unfortunate piece of timing

Brilliant; and the more they are overlooked, the less chance of even their best being good enough at the elite level, so what's the point? Simple mathematics suggests your selections should get trickier the lower you go, not more sober.

 

[The Return of the Paf]

If by cherry picked, you mean researched of reputable websites then, yeah, it’s cherry picked.

No, the crux of it is arguing a false premise.

 

[BigBreakfast]

No, the crux of it is arguing a false premise.

Ok how so?

 

[The Return of the Paf]

That's an absurd contrast to shift all that into: Winder's non-selection has nothing to do with Saad. Saad also doesn't have elite skills, and that's very well documented and evidenced.

What's additionally absurd is that you treat the pick as fixed currency. Don't pot my ability to analyse when you're turning a game of chess into checkers.


The timing of Polson and Finbar being cut had no impact on our draft hand, not sure where you're getting that from.


Winder was on the board, we had list space, end of story. Why we didn't like the kid, I don't know, but historically we will have either had character or homesickness concerns. Where we differ from many clubs, is that we are very risk-averse in that space.


I don't agree on valuing Saad in the same bracket as Cameron or Dangerfield, but I'm not sure which Hawthorn trades you're referring to? Wingard?

That's a question of on-field application versus raw talent, I suppose, but Wingard remains a player than can flex between being a star forward and a star midfielder.

We should always be obsessed with the draft. We have a whole section of the business dedicated to that and list strategy, so the idea that they can be frustrated into making decisions by so many other clubs (and even internal stakeholders) should be a source of enormous disappointment.


37 on the senior list. Is Kennedy confirmed as re-rookied?

Yep!

 

[BigBreakfast]

Yep!

We should be obsessed with development and internal growth. Getting kids in is one thing, growing them to be contributors is another. We have not been great in this area: Dow, Cuners, Stoker and the like are straggling in this regard when compared to the growth of others in similar drafts. Right types v right development is an argument that has no real solution without the perspective of insiders. We only have the eye test and we have not been ahead of the game in this space.

 

[KohPhi]

Probably because it's cherry-picked.

Unless one can provide data that counters, or negates the stats listed, then the i'll accept 'them cherries' over personal opinion every single time.

 

[KohPhi]

That was never the implication. He offers a skill set we sorely need, and we've decided he's not worth the risk. West Coast immediately made a different decision

41. Carlton - Jack Carrol (our final pick)
52. West Coast - Luke Edwards (West Coast's First pick)
57. West Coast - Isiah Winder

Yes, he does possess a skill set we, and a few other clubs would need, but I would question the 'immediately' argument.

 

[HARKER]

All this for the non-selection of one player that almost made it through to the rookie draft?
Maybe that's where we were going to take him, if available.

We were always only going to take two players in the ND. That's it.....two players.
There may be very good strategical reasons for that. There may even be financial reasons for that decision.

If we're going to discuss Winders non-selection, it may be whether we should him at the selection we took Durdin.
We were told what types we were after and attained those types and maybe (probably) we simply viewed Durdin as the better fit for us.
It doesn't necessarily have to be the better player, but the better fit.

Only time will tell.

 

[I bleed Blue]

People.

Santa is coming in two weeks.

Cheer the **** up. Get in the Chrissy spirit.

Grab yourselves a fruit mince pie and be kind to each other.

 

[Metalcrusher]

Hate fruit mince pies.

 

[Accidental genius]

How does parks compare against plowman and marchbank in defensive attributes? All three are about the same height.

 

[I bleed Blue]

Hate fruit mince pies.

You're dead to me