List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

[AB_Blue]

If Betts retires at the end of the year, Tom Pa-pa-lee (doing my best Tom Browne pronunciation there) becomes even more important. We have not seen pressure, tacking and smarts in our forward line of the type that an aged Betts has brought, for a long time. If that goes with no proper replacement, we are going backwards in the points scoring department.

We need an elite mid. If we opt for a quality HB flanker, then the option is to move SPS permanently into the mid.

Would be surprised if Ed doesn’t get another year. Wouldn’t expect him to play 22 games but 14-15 plus finals

He adds so much to our group and you can just tell the forward line walks a foot taller knowing he’s around. Bloody great recruit IMO

Imagine if he had of went to the suns and began mentoring Rankine, King, Etc


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Cuningham is not a small forward, he's a HFF or a midfielder. He also has only now for the first time in his career played more than 6 games in a row. Jack can play as an undersized leadup KPF, a midfielder, a tagger, a small forward, a defender; whether he's capable of all of these things to an AFL standard is another question, but his versatility is streets ahead of Butler. Kennedy is another who has been injured, and doesn't really play as a small forward when in the forward line. We have 3 players who exist more or less on a spectrum; Jack, Kennedy, McGovern. All three are mid sized players, but the spectrum functions as they way they play becomes taller.

I'm not saying Butler can't do it, I'm saying that whether or not he'll do it is completely subject to his form. I manifestly do not want a player who is a superstar one week and a park footballer the next.

That’s the thing for me though, all of them seem to below average at any position. Cuningham gets nowhere near enough ball for a HF who doesn’t kick goals. SOJ makes us a slower side and doesn’t hit the scoreboard, Kennedy has probably 2-3 handy games as a mid under his belt and I think most would hope he is a 5th stringer in the future. For me Butler has a bigger impact even though it’s in one position but like those others is only a role player.

I think SOS threw SOJ under the bus abit by recruiting Gov, Marchbank, Willo who all seem to be able to do anything he does as a tall and then we have Setters, Kemp, Cripps and maybe Kennedy as potential mids. Kemp also being able to play forward.

 

[CJMB]

Milera is exactly the sort of player we need. Classy outside type. Can play back or forward, perhaps even on the wing. Don't know if he's injured, but he's not getting games at the moment, so his price might be a little lower.

Think he busted his foot and is out for a couple of months

 

[CJMB]

Would be surprised if Ed doesn’t get another year. Wouldn’t expect him to play 22 games but 14-15 plus finals

He adds so much to our group and you can just tell the forward line walks a foot taller knowing he’s around. Bloody great recruit IMO

Imagine if he had of went to the suns and began mentoring Rankine, King, Etc


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I like that. Periodically rest him and perhaps avoid the big flights, don't play him in Perth or Brisbane. Slowly transition him into an off field role, a bit of a skills/forward coach as well as the indigenous mentor/relations role (Walker's old gig... is it Misfud that has it now? or someone else?) as well as overall clubhouse good guy.

 

[Banga19]

Liking Willo a lot this year, so glad he's been able to get a sustained run at it. Doesn't make many mistakes and is super athletic, looks fairly assured in the backline to me.

Would like to see him develop his overhead marking skills and provide another intercept making option, would be a great string to his bow.

 

[Kramer1]

I think SOS threw SOJ under the bus abit by recruiting Gov, Marchbank, Willo who all seem to be able to do anything he does as a tall and then we have Setters, Kemp, Cripps and maybe Kennedy as potential mids. Kemp also being able to play forward.

Not so sure...Jack didn't really have a defined role when those guys were recruited, and McGovern is really the only threat to his current role of all the guts listed. Outside of Cripps none of them have Jack's competitiveness and awareness...Willo may get there.

 

[katmanblue]

Are we going to have to have this conversation every single ******* time he plays well?

We are now.

*Twists moustache*

Muahahahah

On SM-N960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Ricky Mott]

Not so sure...Jack didn't really have a defined role when those guys were recruited, and McGovern is really the only threat to his current role of all the guts listed. Outside of Cripps none of them have Jack's competitiveness and awareness...Willo may get there.

Not so sure...Jack didn't really have a defined role when those guys were recruited, and McGovern is really the only threat to his current role of all the guts listed. Outside of Cripps none of them have Jack's competitiveness and awareness...Willo may get there.
[/

That’s the thing for me though, all of them seem to below average at any position. Cuningham gets nowhere near enough ball for a HF who doesn’t kick goals. SOJ makes us a slower side and doesn’t hit the scoreboard, Kennedy has probably 2-3 handy games as a mid under his belt and I think most would hope he is a 5th stringer in the future. For me Butler has a bigger impact even though it’s in one position but like those others is only a role player.

I think SOS threw SOJ under the bus abit by recruiting Gov, Marchbank, Willo who all seem to be able to do anything he does as a tall and then we have Setters, Kemp, Cripps and maybe Kennedy as potential mids. Kemp also being able to play forward.

SOS conflicted of interest came into play here
He recruited players that may have taken positions from his sons. Not sure he had Carlton’s best interest at heart! Hmmmm

 

[Gethelred]

That’s the thing for me though, all of them seem to below average at any position. Cuningham gets nowhere near enough ball for a HF who doesn’t kick goals. SOJ makes us a slower side and doesn’t hit the scoreboard, Kennedy has probably 2-3 handy games as a mid under his belt and I think most would hope he is a 5th stringer in the future. For me Butler has a bigger impact even though it’s in one position but like those others is only a role player.

I think SOS threw SOJ under the bus abit by recruiting Gov, Marchbank, Willo who all seem to be able to do anything he does as a tall and then we have Setters, Kemp, Cripps and maybe Kennedy as potential mids. Kemp also being able to play forward.

To my mind, both Kennedy and Cuningham need games and time to actually get a run at their respective careers, where Butler has only ever been sporadically at AFL level. We need small forwards, but we do not need a small forward who is at VFL level half the time.

All of these players are different, and bring slightly different things.

 

[katmanblue]

He is injured at the moment, foot I believe. I basically see him as the same type of player as SPS, and I certainly wouldn't say no to another SPS.

Might be able to get a 25possession game from the two of them combined.

On SM-N960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[El Topo]

Not so sure...Jack didn't really have a defined role when those guys were recruited, and McGovern is really the only threat to his current role of all the guts listed. Outside of Cripps none of them have Jack's competitiveness and awareness...Willo may get there.

Hot take - there's no future for a medium forward who doesn't kick goals or mark overhead. If SOJ is going to make it, it has to be in the middle or down back.

 

[Own The Future]

I’ve been hearing a lot in the media about the Covid contract freeze being lifted so the compressed schedule can go ahead. This will mean that the “Cripps hasn’t re-signed yet” drama will resurface. I also read that we have half (or thereabouts) of our list coming out of contract.
Could be an interesting month or 2 to come off field as well as on.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Not so sure...Jack didn't really have a defined role when those guys were recruited, and McGovern is really the only threat to his current role of all the guts listed. Outside of Cripps none of them have Jack's competitiveness and awareness...Willo may get there.

My worry with Jack is what is his role? Is it a 4th forward? He doesn’t kick many goals and he doesn’t take many marks and he doesn’t have great speed. In the future between MM, Curnow, Harry and a ruckman we should have all the tall options we need so what does he actually bring that a HF can’t.
Personally I think he is in competition with Cuningham for a spot. Different types but are going to end up having to play similar roles especially if we want to be pushing Kennedy or Cripps forward and maybe Kemp in the future. Imo It will come down to if we want speed or maybe more natural talent. Do we shape our game plan around having a guy like Jack playing as a fourth forward who can find abit of the ball and has a big body or do we try and play a quicker side who might be able to make more from opportunities and create more pressure.
I really don’t know but in a game with a trend going towards quicker and more nimble players up forward playing him over a small forward I think would be a big call considering his versatility isn’t needed anywhere near as much to us as it is in other sides.

 

[Gethelred]

Hot take - there's no future for a medium forward who doesn't kick goals or mark overhead. If SOJ is going to make it, it has to be in the middle or down back.

A forward who doesn't kick goals is not a forward.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

You now it.

No harm raising the question, but we can'y pine for every player we thought we were in with a shot with and they do well.
Who knows, it may be Ellis next week

I see Ellis got in the coaches votes this week, might have to start early

 

[Salt Lake Cities]

Butler another 3 goals. Seems we missed out there. Could we have brought him in as well?

Is it just me or does Butler seem to get a lot of his goals out the back? Running into goal on his own?

Perfect fit for a team like St Kilda with the way they play, not sure how good he’d be for us though...

 

[Kramer1]

My worry with Jack is what is his role? Is it a 4th forward? He doesn’t kick many goals and he doesn’t take many marks and he doesn’t have great speed. In the future between MM, Curnow, Harry and a ruckman we should have all the tall options we need so what does he actually bring that a HF can’t.
Personally I think he is in competition with Cuningham for a spot. Different types but are going to end up having to play similar roles especially if we want to be pushing Kennedy or Cripps forward and maybe Kemp in the future. Imo It will come down to if we want speed or maybe more natural talent. Do we shape our game plan around having a guy like Jack playing as a fourth forward who can find abit of the ball and has a big body or do we try and play a quicker side who might be able to make more from opportunities and create more pressure.
I really don’t know but in a game with a trend going towards quicker and more nimble players up forward playing him over a small forward I think would be a big call considering his versatility isn’t needed anywhere near as much to us as it is in other sides.

You are completely ignoring Jack's best asset though...he's a smart footballer. He's not a huge goal scorer...maybe a goal a game when played forward, but provides pressure and creates opportunities through multiple efforts. He needs to find more of it...like McGovern, Cuningham, Setterfield and a handful of others, but he does bring intangibles few others on the list do.

And if he plays every game we don't have the full complement of Curnow, McKay and McGovern available, history suggests that will still be most games.

 

[BlueJet]

The same could, but the same isn't.

At Richmond, Butler kicked 2+ goals in 9 games in 2017 (23 games), 6 in 2018 (15 games), and 1 game in 2019 (7 games); in summary, that's an AFL quality performance in 16 games from 45. In 2017, he had 3 or more tackles in 15 games (at or above 5 in 8); 11 in 2018 (at or above 5 in 4). In 2019, he had 3 or more tackles in 4 games (at or above 5 in 2). This is part A of my argument: demonstrating that he is AFL caliber at his best as a pressure forward.

In 2017, he had 0 goals and 2 tackles (round 8), 0 goals and 3 tackles (round 13), 0 goals and 2 tackles (round 18), 0 goals and 4 tackles (round 19), 0 goals and 2 tackles (round 20). The patch I would draw attention to here is rounds 18-20; that's 0 goals and 8 tackles across 3 games. In 2018 he had 0 goals and 0 tackles (round 4), 0 goals and 3 tackles (round 5), 0 goals and 2 tackles (round 7), 0 goals and 3 tackles (round 9), and 0 goals and 5 tackles (round 12). In this year, I would draw your attention to weeks 2-5, in which he kicked 1 goal, and laid 10 tackles across 4 games. In 2019, he had 0 goals and 3 tackles (round 2), 0 goals and 0 tackles (round 3) and 0 goals and 4 tackles (round 20). I would draw your attention to rounds 1-3, in which he kicked a single goal and laid 10 tackles (which is brought up by round 1, in which he laid 7); after this, he did not play again until round 11. This is part B of my argument; Butler suffers troughs of form, during which he is barely AFL standard.

The caveat to this analysis is that it's raw stats, and doesn't take things like injury into account; I don't remember if he got injured, for example, in the round 3 game Richmond played in 2019 against the Giants, which would explain his 0-0 average, but the pattern I'm demonstrating here holds fairly true anyway.

Now, we can continue to do this every single time a prospective trade target we either couldn't get across, we declined to go for or that we delisted, but the reality is that since 2015 we've had pretty solid reasons for doing what we've done. I'm all for increasing the variety of player on our list and for increasing the quality of the list, but just because a player comes from a premiership side does not entail that player is good, or that their form is stable.

Butler is a textbook case of a form player, almost unlike any other at AFL level. His best is fairly top tier as a pressure forward; his worst is not AFL standard. Richmond eased him out because they have a fleet of small forwards, most of whom are more consistent and less prone to titanic vagaries in form. Now, Butler could've been a good get, but do we really want to take on someone who spends half their time in the VFL because they are simply not good enough?

Firstly you haven't disproven/countered anything that I said.
You dont rate him which is your right but as it stands you're presenting opinion as fact.

We don't know for certain whether there will be a dramatic fall off in form, Papley, who is also in career best form doesn't seem to draw your ire or condemnation in a similar manner, nor does Betts - both have also had periods of indifferent form.
Butler was a solid performer at VFL level for a Tigers side that has almost unprecedented depth of small forwards, we have no such problem with a 33yo Betts the only genuine comparison on our list.
Buts is definitely AFL standard and while there may be questions over how long he can continue his form - your rant on the subject is absurd, Gowers? You're better than that..

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Jack doesn’t kick heaps of goals or rack up 30 odd touches but we are a noticeably better side with him in it. Not sure how and not sure why, but we are.

 

[djholmes]

McGovern has been useless up forward. He needs to play down back like his brother. He will be a gun down there.

 

[DangerousD]

To my mind, both Kennedy and Cuningham need games and time to actually get a run at their respective careers, where Butler has only ever been sporadically at AFL level. We need small forwards, but we do not need a small forward who is at VFL level half the time.

All of these players are different, and bring slightly different things.

This seems a bit unfair.
On one hand, Kennedy and Cuningham just need games and times to get a run at their careers.

But Butler Who had one bad season is only sporadically at AFL level?

It seems you are willing to give heaps of slack to two of our boys but are holding Butler to a totally different standard.

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

matt crouch's manager will be bashing down the door at princes park at the moment - do not let him in............

Like the entire club he’s going backwards in a hurry...

 

[thylacine60]

Butler another 3 goals. Seems we missed out there. Could we have brought him in as well?

it's not pokemon........

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

You are completely ignoring Jack's best asset though...he's a smart footballer. He's not a huge goal scorer...maybe a goal a game when played forward, but provides pressure and creates opportunities through multiple efforts. He needs to find more of it...like McGovern, Cuningham, Setterfield and a handful of others, but he does bring intangibles few others on the list do.

And if he plays every game we don't have the full complement of Curnow, McKay and McGovern available, history suggests that will still be most games.

I just can’t see him staying in the side on pressure acts when you should be able to find the same in a player who makes us structurally better and more of a goal threat.
there is definitely something about him that I like but every time he lines up somewhere I think surely someone could play that role better. If our forward line is going to be CC, MM, Harry, Martin then surely we need some opportunists around them. I think their could be room for one of SOJ or Cuningham but I struggle to see both. Fisher is another guy who could play a HF role and be better then the two of them imo and then we still need that crumbing forward who is a natural goal kicker. Something all those lack imo.
In saying all that SOJ is/will be a better player then dozens of premiership players so I’m not ruling him out, I just don’t see him fitting in the best 22. (Which we all know a best 22 actually never happens)

For me he is a classic inbetweener and a jack of all trades, master of none. Similar to Townsend who was pivotal in a premiership but you would always hope to improve on.

 

[F_therest]

Would be surprised if Ed doesn’t get another year. Wouldn’t expect him to play 22 games but 14-15 plus finals

He adds so much to our group and you can just tell the forward line walks a foot taller knowing he’s around. Bloody great recruit IMO

Imagine if he had of went to the suns and began mentoring Rankine, King, Etc


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I reckon there was some truth to Betts joking he'd retire right now if it meant Rankine coming to the club.

I think Betts & Teague would have had mature conversations before bringing him across, and if we can land someone like Papley, Betts would be open to retiring...but if we don't land an adequate replacement, he's happy to play on.

By the sounds of it he'll get a development/indigenous gig with us after he retires, so he'll be looked after and remain with the club. He'll do what's best for the club.