List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

[Ash Man]

Not a terrible comparison in terms of rate of development, he only broke out in his 4th year after showing not a lot at the Bombers. Starting from his fourth year he had 11 straight seasons of averaging at least 22 disposals a game.

Will Dow suddenly start getting 20 touches a game next year? I doubt it. But it's way, way too early to be giving up on him.

Absolutely he can. He has the physical attributes and the footy skills to be a top line player. Does he have the desire?

 

[BlueJet]

If he’s not top 3 he’d be top 5. I don’t reckon Greene and Walters are the same type anyway. Ryan would have some claims for a spot too.

Still top 10 in the coleman despite doing next to nothing for 2 months. Think you’re underrating him a little bit.

IMO Greene is effectively an upgraded version of Papley.
Players like Cameron, Ryan & Walters you have to plan your defence around as their legspeed, skill & agility means that they're capable of tearing the heart out of an undisciplined defensive group in a manner that we're yet to really see from Papley, which is not to say that he isn't a good player, more that I feel that people get a little carried away by how much influence they see him having if we are successful in luring him across.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

If Papley kicks a bag tonight, I think that says more about our small defenders than Papley.

Papley has been out of form for almost 2 months now. If that changes, all it shows is that we need to be looking at a small lockdown defender before a small forward.

You’ve spent the entire year saying Papley doesn’t play like a small forward. Just put Weitering or Jones on him if that’s the case.

 

[murphster]

If Papley kicks a bag tonight, I think that says more about our small defenders than Papley.

Papley has been out of form for almost 2 months now. If that changes, all it shows is that we need to be looking at a small lockdown defender before a small forward.

To be fair it’s been a lean period for a lot of small forwArds, Walters didn’t kick a goal for 5 weeks, Betts wasn’t kicking goals and even Cameron hasn’t been lighting the world on fire.

 

[murphster]

All i know is he is in the top 3 small forwards in the comp, Since Malthouse turfed out Betts & Garlett we have spent every year looking for someone capable of replacing them, and still haven't been successful. I would happily trade 2 x first round picks to ensure that the hole is filled for the next 8-10 years.

2 first round picks for a small forward is way overs and frankly we should pass at that cost, his brother is in this years draft let’s just take him with a late pick and move on.

 

[murphster]

All i know is he is in the top 3 small forwards in the comp, Since Malthouse turfed out Betts & Garlett we have spent every year looking for someone capable of replacing them, and still haven't been successful. I would happily trade 2 x first round picks to ensure that the hole is filled for the next 8-10 years.

We haven’t exactly been busting a gut to find a small forward since we started the rebuild, we got Austin to the club and he was at Richmond when they picked up all there small forwards with late picks or rookie picks so I would be inclined to let him see what he can pick up for us especially if SYDNEY want 2 first rounders which is just ridiculous for a small forward.

 

[BlueJet]

You’ve spent the entire year saying Papley doesn’t play like a small forward. Just put Weitering or Jones on him if that’s the case.

In fairness, he was effectively playing as an undersized full forward earlier in the season, as others have come into the side he has pushed further up the ground.
If they do play him deep, Jones could potentially do the job (though I'd rather Plow), similar to Grimes playing on Charlie Cameron or Betts etc.

 

[Sin City]

Nowhere did Diesel say trade Dow or give up on him or that he doesn’t have it in him.

Don’t think we need any I told you so’s, we all know Paddy has plenty of work to do, some of us just aren’t that keen to throw away 20 year olds so quickly, and it looks like the club thinks similar.

I’m not seeing the same thing as Diesel personally, Dow always looks like he’s cracking in to me when he plays in the midfield. Usually looks lost as a forward but when he’s in the midfield he looks more to me like a bloke that just can’t play his natural game for anywhere near long enough. His tank usually only allows him to play one or two strong quarters a game. I agree with him playing reserves until he can build his tank to an appropriate level though.

 

[JustaBattler]

Running and performing at high standards in AFL requires both athletic ability and skill. Just because Dow doesn't seem to have the tank for F/T midfield duties today - doesn't mean he won't or can't develop one over the next couple of years - the real call is not on him now- but what the coaches think of his commitment to getting better where he needs to and that is easy to see- run both ways and learn to tackle your opponent. None of us are in a position to make that judgment call.

His ordinary field kicking atm - that is probably as much to do with lack of aerobic capacity as skill. Dow isn't alone in needing the time to develop - it is all on him to do the extra work required to get to the same running standards as blokes like Gibbons/Newnes/Cottrell. If Dow could tackle as well as Setterfield he would probably be getting more game time - as Setterfield has his own TOG limitations - same as Kennedy.

 

[katmanblue]

In an alternate universe, Dow is drafted to GWS at pick 3. Averages 14 and 17 touches in his first two years before being sent forward and then to the two's in the following year as he can't crack the 22. But he has shown glimpses of explosive pace, contested work and a side-step to match. This board is probably pleading to throw our first rounder at him. Grass is always greener.

Understand it has been a poor year, but the injuries haven't helped fitness wise. Needs time to develop and he should either be in the midfield or in the two's, he's not a forward. Would be irresponsible to trade at his lowest value.

Agree totally.


I just don't agree with the calls to get him Gametime until he is up to it aerobically.

"You wanna play? Well fix your fitness, then we'll consider it."

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[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

In fairness, he was effectively playing as an undersized full forward earlier in the season, as others have come into the side he has pushed further up the ground.
If they do play him deep, Jones could potentially do the job (though I'd rather Plow), similar to Grimes playing on Charlie Cameron or Betts etc.

We need to find out who can actually do the job on these sorts. Even if we get Williams that leaves us with Williamson, Doc and Williams as the small defenders. One of those three have got to be capable of it and it won’t be Williams.
every time we talk about bringing this or that player in we talk as if we have more then 18 positions on the ground to fill. If Doc is getting a player sat on him either he or Williamson have got to be able to do a job on a player imo. Maybe they are worth a go

 

[katmanblue]

If Papley kicks a bag tonight, I think that says more about our small defenders than Papley.

Papley has been out of form for almost 2 months now. If that changes, all it shows is that we need to be looking at a small lockdown defender before a small forward.

Nothing's changed. Small forwards have been getting off the chain against us for a decade.

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[ItsAllAboutMe]

I’m not seeing the same thing as Diesel personally, Dow always looks like he’s cracking in to me when he plays in the midfield. Usually looks lost as a forward but when he’s in the midfield he looks more to me like a bloke that just can’t play his natural game for anywhere near long enough. His tank usually only allows him to play one or two strong quarters a game. I agree with him playing reserves until he can build his tank to an appropriate level though.

I think Diesel's comments were more to do with training and workrate than anything to do with the way he plays.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Running and performing at high standards in AFL requires both athletic ability and skill. Just because Dow doesn't seem to have the tank for F/T midfield duties today - doesn't mean he won't or can't develop one over the next couple of years - the real call is not on him now- but what the coaches think of his commitment to getting better where he needs to and that is easy to see- run both ways and learn to tackle your opponent. None of us are in a position to make that judgment call.

His ordinary field kicking atm - that is probably as much to do with lack of aerobic capacity as skill. Dow isn't alone in needing the time to develop - it is all on him to do the extra work required to get to the same running standards as blokes like Gibbons/Newnes/Cottrell. If Dow could tackle as well as Setterfield he would probably be getting more game time - as Setterfield has his own TOG limitations - same as Kennedy.

That would be okay if it was his only obvious flaw, his decision making and skills by foot are along way from AFL level.

 

[BlueJet]

We need to find out who can actually do the job on these sorts. Even if we get Williams that leaves us with Williamson, Doc and Williams as the small defenders. One of those three have got to be capable of it and it won’t be Williams.
every time we talk about bringing this or that player in we talk as if we have more then 18 positions on the ground to fill. If Doc is getting a player sat on him either he or Williamson have got to be able to do a job on a player imo. Maybe they are worth a go

I couldn't agree more mate,
at present Willo is playing a more defensive role than he's used to so hopefully he can grow into it.

 

[Gethelred]

Yep and Diesel is bang on the money as usual, there is no point in playing them in the seniors until they prove they can handle it and people on here bleating that we shouldn’t be playing Murphy or Curnow ahead of the kids are the same ones that would be bleating about a losing culture if we played the kids in the guts and lost.

Think that's a bit unfair, Murph. You're putting words in people's mouth.

 

[Fevolution!]

I’m not seeing the same thing as Diesel personally, Dow always looks like he’s cracking in to me when he plays in the midfield. Usually looks lost as a forward but when he’s in the midfield he looks more to me like a bloke that just can’t play his natural game for anywhere near long enough. His tank usually only allows him to play one or two strong quarters a game. I agree with him playing reserves until he can build his tank to an appropriate level though.

I agree with Diesel, and you to an extent. When the ball comes to Dow he cracks in, he’s definitely not soft and I don’t think that’s what Diesel is getting at. I think Diesel’s point is Dow needs to make things happen himself, and I agree.
So many times I see Dow a) hesitant to attack a loose ball (who knows why, not saying his soft) b) let the opposition get an easy kick or handball away by not applying pressure when it looks like he’s close enough to be.
This sums up Dow and the whole team when they need to stand up. Enter a pack with arms outstretched trying to grab the ball/opposition, other team enters the pack with their body, disrupts the pack, grabs the ball and dishes it out. Happened many times in the last v Collingwood and GWS.
This is why we shit the bed, we don’t have many aggressors in our team (Probably just Cripps) whereas the good teams have many who crack in and demand the ball when it matters. Even Callum Brown did it to us against the Pies.
I can’t remember a time when Dow has proactively done this (except in season 1 against Geelong). Needs a lot more aggression and intent in his game before he becomes best 22.

 

[Mezzoculo]

I wasn't aware Dow has suggested he is home sick. When did that occur?

Probably around day three of hub iso...

 

[JustaBattler]

That would be okay if it was his only obvious flaw, his decision making and skills by foot are along way from AFL level.

Any player has to be able to cope with the base workload required to get to where they have to be and then execute at high levels - if a bloke has the running power but can't perform - that is a separate discussion. I think it is early days with Dow - we already know he isn't a Walsh - but the knock on Walsh is his disposal efficiency - and i suspect that is an outcome fo him being tired for all the run he delivers....

Midfield running requirements for core players are very high - we see the TOG stats for blokes down to 60% because they just don't have the tank or if they do they aren't fast enough and some who can run and endure aren't big enough to make an impact....

 

[CJMB]

Nothing's changed. Small forwards have been getting off the chain against us for a decade.

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I was pretty happy the day Lindsay Thomas hung up the boots. Felt like he always went to town on us, regardless of what his form was like coming into the match. You'd just pencil him in for multiple goals at the start of the game. Urgh...

 

[murphster]

https://www.afl.com.au/news/497382/the-wing-kings-check-out-the-top-12-based-on-pure-numbers

Great article on the competitions wingers. Massive shoutout to Walsh who is probably only just behind Menegola and Hunter as the most effective pure wingers in the game. His last month or so has been extraordinary. For a 2nd year player to excel in a position that usually favours more seasoned players is amazing but not surprising considering the kid blows up his GPS every game. Would have been very easy for him to accept a drop off in performance due to being swapped to the wing and write it off as 2nd year blues but Walsh is built differently. Dow only has to look next to him for an example of the type of mindset needed to make it at this level.

Yep I highlighted his performances a couple of weeks ago compared to McLuggage and it’s good to see others have seen the same.

I actually think it has been a master stroke from the coaches to move him out to the wing where his young body isn’t getting bashed around as much and where he has had more space and time to work on his disposal which is much improved on last year, this was also an area the team was crying out for a week on week performer.

The move of Setters, whose body is much more suited, into the centre clearances and Walsh to his wing position is one of the success stories of the year and both worked there arses off to cement there spots over the preseason, this along with the success that JSOS had in 2019 after working his arse off in pre season should be the inspiration and blue print for our other young players to follow in the oncoming pre season.

I am hoping this will be the catalyst for another 1-2 young players to do the same this pre season and if it’s not Dow and Obrien then maybe they just get overtaken by Philp and Ramsay or Kemp and Stocker or Cottrell and Honey we now have no shortage of young players that will be champing at the bit to emulate what JSOS, Setters and Walsh have achieved in the last 2 years.

JSOS specifically concentrated on running with the B1 & B2 Curnow brothers so I would suggest that is a great place for Dow to start.

 

[Blue__Balls]

I’m not seeing the same thing as Diesel personally, Dow always looks like he’s cracking in to me when he plays in the midfield. Usually looks lost as a forward but when he’s in the midfield he looks more to me like a bloke that just can’t play his natural game for anywhere near long enough. His tank usually only allows him to play one or two strong quarters a game. I agree with him playing reserves until he can build his tank to an appropriate level though.

I didn't really see the same thing you did then.

1. Handball to stationary player, basic triangle work.
2. Tackled a 7-game player (somewhat before he had the ball). Well executed for what that's worth. Was late in the first quarter, hasn't laid a tackle in the 7 quarters since.
3. Uncontested mark, gave off handball.
4. Won a good contested ball and passed off to Cripps in, seemingly, no better position than Dow himself who could have run into more space.
5. Sat off the stoppage, got lucky when Grundy hit it almost straight into his path, followed that with a dodgy handball to nobody, followed up (good), handballed off to Cripps (also under pressure), then got forward to contest the fall of the ball before getting tackled.
6. Rushed kick for territory, gathered by opposition.
7. Hospital handball to Gibbons who was crunched.
8. Another uncontested mark and handball.
9. Another uncontested mark. No vision of disposal, which usually means turnover in highlights videos.
10. Loose ball gather on the wing and neat kick to an open teammate about 60m out on the forward flank.

His best passage of play, by far, was number 5. But even then, he was sitting 2m or more behind his man at the stoppage, the ball fell his way, he had two very ordinary handballs, then did the right thing and got forward to impact the next contest. That pretty much sums him up at the moment - waiting for the ball instead of going after it, suspect and low value decision making with ball in hand. So while it was messy - the fact that he was involved 4-5 times in one passage was the best part of it.

None of the above highlights a lack of skill. It does highlight a lack of intensity or competitive drive, and awareness/decision making (or more succinctly, focus). He's playing passive footy by and large - and yes, when the heat is on and he's under pressure, the skills are there to see, but he's not putting himself in those positions often enough.

 

[murphster]

In fairness, he was effectively playing as an undersized full forward earlier in the season, as others have come into the side he has pushed further up the ground.
If they do play him deep, Jones could potentially do the job (though I'd rather Plow), similar to Grimes playing on Charlie Cameron or Betts etc.

Similar to Plows job on Cameron last year when he blanketed him out of the game.

 

[AT97]

Nowhere did Diesel say trade Dow or give up on him or that he doesn’t have it in him.

Don’t think we need any I told you so’s, we all know Paddy has plenty of work to do, some of us just aren’t that keen to throw away 20 year olds so quickly, and it looks like the club thinks similar.

also said a couple of handy players were in a similar position at some point in their career.

 

[agro]

Similar to Plows job on Cameron last year when he blanketed him out of the game.

If Plowman picks up Papley tonight, it will be like the Hindenburg disaster “oh the humanity”.