Play Nice 2020 Non AFL Admin, Crowds, Ratings, Participation etc thread

[RedV3x]

A career in pretty much any other sport I assume.

Absolutely non-sensical.
You and another are suggesting that there is a pool of exceptional athletic talent and they are simply waiting to choose what pays best.
Rubbish. It simply doesn't work that way.
Popular sports draw participation and from that pool of participation come the elite following a well-defined pathway.
Professional sports require people to become exceptionally proficient in that sport.
There is very little cross-over in male sport.
You need certain attributes to be a basketballer, and AFL midfielder, a striker, a rugby player etc
You need certain skills to play individual sports like golf, tennis, athletics, swimming, gymnastics etc.
However your suggestion probably holds true for some female sports that are still in their infancy.

 

[Rob]

Absolutely non-sensical.
You and another are suggesting that there is a pool of exceptional athletic talent and they are simply waiting to choose what pays best.

Rubbish. It simply doesn't work that way.

Bollocks. I'm not suggesting it's a big pool, far from it. But the pool does exist, and that's not just for those kids that may be good enough to play professionally. You're a kid at 15 and you make rep teams in, say, basketball and football. You can't play both as training and playing demands conflict. What do you choose? You might be a 5% chance to get drafted to the AFL, but assuming you're equally as proficient at basketball you're going to be zero chance of playing the game professionally. You're not seriously suggesting that the small prospect of an AFL career wouldn't be a factor in your decision? Of course it would be - to what degree would depend on the kid.

In a lot of cases you've probably never heard about it, because in most cases these decisions are made years before draft age. It's really only the cricket/football decision that gets made close to the draft because they're 2 sports that can be played simultaneously at a high (junior) level right up until then.

 

[RedV3x]

I'm not suggesting it's a big pool, far from it.

Yes it is a small pool because very few people have the potential to be elite at more than one sport.
Yes, basketballers and footballers share some commonality but a young person can play both.
In the end a person still has to able to kick a football or make a basket.
It used to be more common with cricket and football but what percentage crossover figure are you suggesting?
I'd put the at around 5% for men but much higher for women a.t.m.

 

[NoobPie]

Shocking yes, but actually better than some even more shocking ratings they have been getting lately.

IT's the first week though.

 

[Rob]

Yes it is a small pool because very few people have the potential to be elite at more than one sport.
Yes, basketballers and footballers share some commonality but a young person can play both.
In the end a person still has to able to kick a football or make a basket.
It used to be more common with cricket and football but what percentage crossover figure are you suggesting?
I'd put the at around 5% for men but much higher for women a.t.m.

Look, I don't really know for sure so I wouldn't want to put a figure on it. But i'm telling you now that being around junior sport a fair bit that most of the best kids at the footy club are also the best at other sports, whether that be basketball, athletics, cricket, generally whatever else they choose to play. But the reality is that in winter eventually they're going to have to choose one to take seriously, and that's normally around the time they're 14 or so. Which is too early to say whether they're going to make it in any sport professionally, which is why I can't really put a number on it.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Look, I don't really know for sure so I wouldn't want to put a figure on it. But i'm telling you now that being around junior sport a fair bit that most of the best kids at the footy club are also the best at other sports, whether that be basketball, athletics, cricket, generally whatever else they choose to play. But the reality is that in winter eventually they're going to have to choose one to take seriously, and that's normally around the time they're 14 or so. Which is too early to say whether they're going to make it in any sport professionally, which is why I can't really put a number on it.

Football has already largely won this battle because as you say it’s much easier to make it. Guys like Sunderland, Marsh, Keath and apparently Green are fairly rare. The list going the other way is so much larger. I look at my own local town and the last three players of note to make AFL are the Dow’s who were really only football, Jenkins who chased a basketball dream in which he was much more highly rated and came back to football and B Daniels who played state junior cricket so in the best 11 players in the state.
If you’re the third best Victorian cricketer in your age group then you are probably unlikely to make it to shield level but if you are the third best footballer then you are probably a top 5 pick in the draft and more then likely be a constant top end player. If you want a career then you would be mad not to chose football

 

[Teen Wolf]

However your suggestion probably holds true for some female sports that are still in their infancy.

The suggestion holds true for women's sport because of the same reason it holds true for men's sport.

Just because you don't hear about how Annabel Sutherland would be playing cricket and football if CA hadn't prematurely awarded her a national contract (therefore heaps more money) to be a single-sport athlete, doesn't mean it ain't so. There's only one reason she isn't appearing in both the WBBL and AFLW, and it has nothing to do with ability.

Female athletes who do juggle multiple sports at elite level are either a) not offered a pro wage in any sport, or b) taking a paycut in order to pursue dual-careers. Monique Conti would be the most notable current example of the latter: she could have signed a more lucrative deal with a football club, but she would have then been expected to give up basketball, even though it's apparent that she's good enough to play both AFLW and WNBL.

In other words, it's always about money (or lack thereof), regardless of gender.

 

[RedV3x]

In other words, it's always about money (or lack thereof), regardless of gender.

It's also about, apprentice, pathway and skill.
Women are playing in the AFLW coming from other sports.
Men aren't playing in the AFL coming from other sports.
Men aren't playing in elite sports coming from other elite sports.
Now, there is a case that young men might be choosing from various pathways early on.
In the case of choosing an AFL pathway money could play a part.
The question is, how many men have the ability to ply multiple sports at the top level.
Most elite sports-people are good at other sports but NOT to an elite level.
Some team sports have similarities that enable crossover more easily cricketers to baseball, baseballers to ruckmen, GAA to AFL, SR to NRL
but to be striker in soccer, a midfielder in AFL, a rugby player, a batsman, a bowler, a pitcher require honed skills and a huge amount of natural ability.
Regardless of the potential percentage pool of elite sports people it is a fallacy to say popularity (money) decides the direction of this pool.
Just take the situation in NSW. The AFL has created it's own participation. NRL participation is only slightly down.
Figures now suggest that AFL participation is now greater than NRL participation in NSW.
Accurate or not, there is enough to show that sportsmen "poaching" is insignificant.
Why is this? It's easy. The codes attract different player types as a generalisation.
There are always exceptions to generalisations. Paul Kelly played rugby league before switching to Australian Football.
Paul Kelly is an AFL and not a NRL type but you could see him playing NRL because of his tenacity.
Well, maybe in the past, because in both codes, player types have been refined.
Many past AFL players would have difficulty in being recruited today and if a past AFL player has difficulty
then that would be multiplied by a "crosscoder" type.

 

[RedV3x]

Look, I don't really know for sure so I wouldn't want to put a figure on it. But i'm telling you now that being around junior sport a fair bit that most of the best kids at the footy club are also the best at other sports, whether that be basketball, athletics, cricket, generally whatever else they choose to play. But the reality is that in winter eventually they're going to have to choose one to take seriously, and that's normally around the time they're 14 or so. Which is too early to say whether they're going to make it in any sport professionally, which is why I can't really put a number on it.

I totally agree and elsewhere I have said that elite sports people are generally very good at other sports because certain attributes transfer like fitness, speed, acceleration, jump, height, and hand/eye co-ordination etc but I am specifically saying an elite sports person being good enough to play at elite level in another sport. Undoubtedly people choose a pathway over another pathway - that doesn't mean that they will succeed in their chosen pathway
And I agree it would be very difficult to get statistics.

 

[Teen Wolf]

Women are playing in the AFLW coming from other sports.

No they aren't (aside from the Irish contingent which also happens in the men's competition), they come from a multi-sport background, with football being one of the sports. We are just hearing about them choosing AFLW now because that option previously didn't exist.

You think somebody like an Erin Phillips is able to cross over from basketball and succeed in football because of some lazy misguided view about the skill level of AFLW... when in reality it's because she's a talented athlete who would have never stopped playing football if there was a professional women's league for the sport 20 years ago.

It's exactly the same on the men's side. If the AFL became an amateur league, would-be professional footballers are just going to focus more on other sports and the performance of our national cricket, soccer, basketball etc teams will improve dramatically as a result.

 

[RedV3x]

No they aren't (aside from the Irish contingent which also happens in the men's competition).

The degree is completely different.
The AFLW could easily field an irish team or world team in the AFLW.
No way could the AFLW field a world team in the AFL.

they come from a multi-sport background,

Yes, they come from different sports as I said " Women are playing in the AFLW coming from other sports."
Women are playing in the AFLW coming from other sports to a large degree and from different sports.

You think somebody like an Erin Phillips is able to cross over from basketball and succeed in football because of some view about the skill level of AFLW.

Basically yes. No women have a long background in Australian Football.
That is quickly changing and cross-coders will find it increasingly difficult to join the AFLW.
Only GAA players can bridge the gap because of their football environment.

If the AFL became an amateur league, would-be professional footballers are just going to focus more on other sports.

Didn't happen pre-AFL did it.

the performance of our national cricket, soccer, basketball etc teams will improve dramatically as a result.

That's Kindergaten logic.
Cricket and AFL are played in different seasons so youngsters can clearly see where they are best suited.
IMO youngsters talented in both sports are preferring cricket over AFL because of longevity issues.
Basketball and AFL are played in different seasons so youngsters can clearly see where they are best suited.
IMO youngsters talented in both sports are preferring basketball over AFL because of longevity issues.
Soccer and AFL are played in different seasons so youngsters can clearly see where they are best suited.
Soccer supposedly has these huge participation figures so how can the downgrading of AFL help?
Are you saying that soccer is so easy that anyone can come in and being a successful striker?

The idea that there is a finite pool of sports people up for grabs is pure kindergarten thinking.
The idea that you can 'convert' great masses of people is even more ludicrous.
The reality is a lot more complex.
Sports history shows that you can grow participation in one sport and grow total sports participation.
Sports history shows that you can lose participation in one sport and lose total sports participation .
That's because the mix between social, amateur and professional participation is constantly fluid.
The AFL has shown their is a huge demand for more older social participation.
The NRL desperately tries to say the huge participation in touch rugby implies an interest in NRL.

The reason why a sport with high participation probably will garner a high standard of play is because the level of participation produces an opportunity for a higher hierarchy of competition. The All Blacks are supreme because of their intense competition not because they have highest number of registered players. It is intense competition that produces elite sports people rather than elite sports people falling into a sport.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

I totally agree and elsewhere I have said that elite sports people are generally very good at other sports because certain attributes transfer like fitness, speed, acceleration, jump, height, and hand/eye co-ordination etc but I am specifically saying an elite sports person being good enough to play at elite level in another sport. Undoubtedly people choose a pathway over another pathway - that doesn't mean that they will succeed in their chosen pathway
And I agree it would be very difficult to get statistics.

I think where we see it a little different is for atleast me, the reason a lot are becoming elite footballers rather then in other fields is because it’s easier/more opportunities then other sports so they make that choice early. Look at someone like GHS. He was ten times the cricketer then footballer yet still chose football. I bet we couldn’t even name Australia’s 100th best cricketer yet the hundredth best footballer is a star, likewise athletics, basketball, we wouldn’t have a clu who is the 3-600th best players etc. Alot of players would easily be in the top ~800 in other sports but have just gone the Aussie rules path.

 

[Teen Wolf]

The degree is completely different.
The AFLW could easily field an irish team or world team in the AFLW.
No way could the AFLW field a world team in the AFL.

I think I got the gist of your garbled point, but it's completely incorrect to say there could be a competitive all-Irish team in the AFLW. Not even a debatable topic.

Yes, they come from different sports as I said " Women are playing in the AFLW coming from other sports."
No women have a long background in Australian Football.

This is also categorically incorrect. Most AFLW players (including Phillips) have a longer history in footy than any other sport.

Didn't happen pre-AFL did it.

Yes, it did.

That's Kindergaten logic.
Cricket and AFL are played in different seasons so youngsters can clearly see where they are best suited.
IMO youngsters talented in both sports are preferring cricket over AFL because of longevity issues.
Basketball and AFL are played in different seasons so youngsters can clearly see where they are best suited.
IMO youngsters talented in both sports are preferring basketball over AFL because of longevity issues.
Soccer and AFL are played in different seasons so youngsters can clearly see where they are best suited.
Soccer supposedly has these huge participation figures so how can the downgrading of AFL help?
Are you saying that soccer is so easy that anyone can come in and being a successful striker?

The idea that there is a finite pool of sports people up for grabs is pure kindergarten thinking.
The idea that you can 'convert' great masses of people is even more ludicrous.
The reality is a lot more complex.
Sports history shows that you can grow participation in one sport and grow total sports participation.
Sports history shows that you can lose participation in one sport and lose total sports participation .
That's because the mix between social, amateur and professional participation is constantly fluid.
The AFL has shown their is a huge demand for more older social participation.
The NRL desperately tries to say the huge participation in touch rugby implies an interest in NRL.

The reason why a sport with high participation probably will garner a high standard of play is because the level of participation produces an opportunity for a higher hierarchy of competition. The All Blacks are supreme because of their intense competition not because they have highest number of registered players. It is intense competition that produces elite sports people rather than elite sports people falling into a sport.

Total babble. And no, I'm not saying soccer is so easy that anyone can come in and be a successful striker. I would never make such a vague and indecipherable argument.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Using the fact that people have different lead-in times isn't evidence about a sport or talent pool or anything one way or another. Basketball is filled with stories of seven-footers picking up the game as late teenagers and becoming all-star players. That isn't an indictment of basketball, it's just how the game is played.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Using the fact that people have different lead-in times isn't evidence about a sport or talent pool or anything one way or another. Basketball is filled with stories of seven-footers picking up the game as late teenagers and becoming all-star players. That isn't an indictment of basketball, it's just how the game is played.

I love basketball but the talent in the NBA is extremely overrated. It’s a sport for tall people. It’s sort of like not having weight divisions in fighting or similar to jockeys

 

[RedV3x]

A lot of players would easily be in the top ~800 in other sports but have just gone the Aussie rules path.

By your definition the top Australian Rules Football players in the USA, Canada, Irleand, PNG , NZ etc would be "elite".
Yes, most AFL players are probably good at some other sport but far from "elite".
Maybe a good definition of "elite" would be high remuneration not ranking in some minor sport as you suggest.

 

[RedV3x]

it's completely incorrect to say there could be a competitive all-Irish team in the AFLW.

The numbers are there to have an Irish standalone team in the AFLW. It has been suggested at various times.

Most AFLW players have a longer history in footy than any other sport.

Very difficult when the AFLW only started in 2017.
A significant number of AFLW players have come from other sports but a lot less nowadays.

Yes, it did.

When Australian Football was poorly paid other sports didn't boom as a result.
When Australian Football became professional other sports didn't die as a result.

I'm not saying soccer is so easy that anyone can come in and be a successful striker.

So why do say soccer would benefit from people not playing AFL?

 

[RedV3x]

Basketball is filled with stories of seven-footers picking up the game as late teenagers and becoming all-star players.

Yes, because they are indeed "seven-footers".
Yes, that is indeed "an indictment of basketball", a very good one in fact.

 

[Teen Wolf]

The numbers are there to have an Irish standalone team in the AFLW. It has been suggested at various times.

No informed person has suggested it, and the numbers aren't there: 14 in total for this season (even though the AFL would have allowed for 42 if clubs so desired), most of them are fringe best-21 selections for their respective team, and none of them have even won a "Brownlow" yet! Also, minor detail, they wouldn't be out here if they weren't getting paid for it.

Very difficult when the AFLW only started in 2017.
A significant number of AFLW players have come from other sports but a lot less nowadays.

Sorry but girls playing football wasn't invented in 2017.

When Australian Football was poorly paid other sports didn't boom as a result.
When Australian Football became professional other sports didn't die as a result.

That's just another example of your poor grasp of history (and your willingness to distort this discussion: nobody said other sports died).

The average AFL wage has skyrocketed in the past 20 years. In that time, the number of Olympic gold medals won by Aus men has been steadily cut by a third, our male cricket and rugby teams have become a shadow of what they used to be, the Socceroos peaked in 2006 and haven't looked respectable since, and our men's singles tennis grand slam drought has blown out to 18 years and counting.

So why do say soccer would benefit from people not playing AFL?

Because to be a world class soccer player, you need to be an exceptional athlete (which the AFL is rife with). If you get more exceptional athletes into your pathway programs who are less likely to be lured away by high-paying rival sports, the chances of generating world class players increase. Very obvious stuff.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

By your definition the top Australian Rules Football players in the USA, Canada, Irleand, PNG , NZ etc would be "elite".
Yes, most AFL players are probably good at some other sport but far from "elite".
Maybe a good definition of "elite" would be high remuneration not ranking in some minor sport as you suggest.

That’s sort of the point. They are playing “elite” football because that’s where the opportunities are. Why choose other sports where they are every bit as good, or better at if you are less likely to get rewarded. Football are getting these type of athletes who are comparatively stronger in other sports but don’t have the same opportunities. This choice is now getting made so young that before people get the opportunity to fully test themselves in other sports they have already chosen a football career path.

 

[RedV3x]

They are playing “elite” football because ..

overseas they can represent their country in Australian Football.

Why choose other sports where they are every bit as good,

I agree with your sentiment, just not the volume. There isn't that many sports people who could reach the top of two competitive sport.
There are moves that are easier like basketballer to ruckmen, cricketer to baseballer, rugby swapping and AFL to cricket all-rounder but it is unlikely for a sports person to be the best at two highly skilled and significantly different sports.
Since AFL is played in the opposite season to many sports there isn't really that much a clash at junior level.
Anecdotal evidence doesn't for much but there is a growing trend to encourage kids to play as many sports as possible
just to improve their favourite sport or potential sport. Again anecdotally, there is a difference between a favourite sport and a potential sport.
I like watching and playing Australian Football but I played rugby and was very good at it. Never chose to go with it.
I was extremely good at baseball but hopeless at cricket because a bouncing ball changes everything.
That's why there is potentially only a one way movement between certain sports.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

overseas they can represent their country in Australian Football.



I agree with your sentiment, just not the volume. There isn't that many sports people who could reach the top of two competitive sport.
There are moves that are easier like basketballer to ruckmen, cricketer to baseballer, rugby swapping and AFL to cricket all-rounder but it is unlikely for a sports person to be the best at two highly skilled and significantly different sports.
Since AFL is played in the opposite season to many sports there isn't really that much a clash at junior level.
Anecdotal evidence doesn't for much but there is a growing trend to encourage kids to play as many sports as possible
just to improve their favourite sport or potential sport. Again anecdotally, there is a difference between a favourite sport and a potential sport.
I like watching and playing Australian Football but I played rugby and was very good at it. Never chose to go with it.
I was extremely good at baseball but hopeless at cricket because a bouncing ball changes everything.
That's why there is potentially only a one way movement between certain sports.

I think it’s more because people make the choice so early. It’s bloody hard to change back later on like Carey, Keath, Jenkins etc have because usually the opportunity has already passed.

 

[RedV3x]

14 in total for this season (even though the AFL would have allowed for 42 if clubs so desired),

So by your own statement, a standalone Irish AFLW team would have been possible IF DESIRED.
Plenty of people with an interest in Australian Football overseas have contemplated this suggestion.
You and especially you cannot deny this simple fact. Maybe I should refer to you as Trump.

No informed person has suggested it, and the numbers aren't there: 14 in total for this season (even though the AFL would have allowed for 42 if clubs so desired), most of them are fringe best-21 selections for their respective team, and none of them have even won a "Brownlow" yet! Also, minor detail, they wouldn't be out here if they weren't getting paid for it.

Sorry but girls playing football wasn't invented in 2017.

That's just another example of your poor grasp of history (and your willingness to distort this discussion: nobody said other sports died).

The average AFL wage has skyrocketed in the past 20 years. In that time, the number of Olympic gold medals won by Aus men has been steadily cut by a third, our male cricket and rugby teams have become a shadow of what they used to be, the Socceroos peaked in 2006 and haven't looked respectable since, and our men's singles tennis grand slam drought has blown out to 18 years and counting.

Because to be a world class soccer player, you need to be an exceptional athlete (which the AFL is rife with). If you get more exceptional athletes into your pathway programs who are less likely to be lured away by high-paying rival sports, the chances of generating world class players increase. Very obvious stuff.

Sorry but girls playing football wasn't invented in 2017.

I'm sorry too that you keep posting irrelevant cryptic stuff.
Women played Australian Football a very long time ago but the AFLW started in 2017

The average AFL wage has skyrocketed in the past 20 years. In that time, the number of Olympic gold medals won by Aus men has been steadily cut by a third, our male cricket and rugby teams have become a shadow of what they used to be, the Socceroos peaked in 2006 and haven't looked respectable since, and our men's singles tennis grand slam drought has blown out to 18 years and counting.

So what AFL players would have won gold, starred in cricket, starred in rugby, become tennis professionals or golf professionals?

Because to be a world class soccer player, you need to be an exceptional athlete (which the AFL is rife with).

I know I play soccer and was good at it except when it came to the skill of dribbling.
You keep overlooking one fundamental elite sportsmen need exceptional athleticism AND exceptional skill (in that sport)
AFL players are good at other sports but don't have the refined skill to move across into another elite sport.

 

[NoobPie]

I think it’s more because people make the choice so early. It’s bloody hard to change back later on like Carey, Keath, Jenkins etc have because usually the opportunity has already passed.

And Keath and Jenkins have done OK but are probably a shadow of what they would have been had they kept with football

 

[jatz14]

So by your own statement, a standalone Irish AFLW team would have been possible IF DESIRED.
Plenty of people with an interest in Australian Football overseas have contemplated this suggestion.
You and especially you cannot deny this simple fact. Maybe I should refer to you as Trump.






I'm sorry too that you keep posting irrelevant cryptic stuff.
Women played Australian Football a very long time ago but the AFLW started in 2017




So what AFL players would have won gold, starred in cricket, starred in rugby, become tennis professionals or golf professionals?



I know I play soccer and was good at it except when it came to the skill of dribbling.
You keep overlooking one fundamental elite sportsmen need exceptional athleticism AND exceptional skill (in that sport)
AFL players are good at other sports but don't have the refined skill to move across into another elite sport.

The argument was about women coming from other sports. Many of those women had a background in Footy, because female footy predates the AFLW by decades.

For some reason, the AFL and media like to talk up cross code converts, and talk up that player X crossed from basketball, or netball, or soccer etc.

What is lacking is that many of these players also had a background in Footy, so can you be a cross code convert to a sport you already played?

Examples,

Phillips was very good at footy before she ever started playing basketball.
Brazil the netball convert had already won a rising star award in WA prior to the AFLW. Conway from Brisbane, the state junior hockey "convert" was also playing state junior footy for Qld.

Molloy didn't play organised footy, but played a lot of "unorganised" footy. When she switched, she was one of the most skilled female juniors immediately. Not just because of natural talent, but because of her history with the sport.

There are actually not many successfull genuine cross code converts. And tellingly, most of them are tall. There just are not that many tall athletic women.



On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app