2020 Non-Crows AFL Discussion Part 2

[hey shorty]

I wasn't aware that those guys committed their crimes "in the name of atheism".

Atheist committing a crime does not equal person committing a crime in the name of atheism.

Hitler.....

 

[WetCrow1991]

Yes because theyre the only people who do that.

And no I dont condone that at all

Yeah i didnt think you ran a church so wouldn't expect you would.

Well Athiests don't have institutions so they can't institutionalise child molestation like organised religions can. To be clear, the issue here is with the people that run the religious clubs, not the fans.

 

[WetCrow1991]

There are so many amazing devout Muslims and Christians.
Why aren't they given any credit?

Of course you think people should be praised for not being campaigners.

 

[hey shorty]

Of course you think people should be praised for not being campaigners.

And you seem to be negative towards all religion.

I'm with arrowman on this, there's campaigners in all walks of life regardless of what they do or dont believe in

 

[WetCrow1991]

Hitler.....

Wasn't an athiest.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

And these volunteers are great. Without them, no sport in Australia. I used to volunteer, took my finance knowledge, went to an org I supported who needed someone like me, helped them out. I volunteered my time and experience.

What the MFC are asking for is something else entirely. The ad specifically says Graduates and it names specific fields. That’s not volunteering, that’s exploitation, finding inexperienced people in fields who want work and asking for them to commit basically a year for free to the MFC, 10-25 hours a week? Jesus wept, they were rightfully pilloried for that.

I don't know the industry but I bet they'll have takers. The "pay" is that the roles are stepping stones to paid positions.

Quite a few physio graduates for instance volunteer at a football club or with state junior programs. No pay but they know getting themselves out and about will lead to something. And they know it's only for a short time, usually during a period of their career when they can't find full time work. Not enough experience...

It's win-win. Typically short term. A stepping stone for the volunteer. Experience banked. Club gets extra support. If they had to finance the position it wouldn't be there.

 

[FAITH]

Of course you think people should be praised for not being campaigners.

I'm sure many of them have done much more for the community than you and I, but they get no credit.
And many will acknowledge that their religion was the main reason why they are who they are and act the way they do.

You can't dismiss that religion as a whole has had a much greater positive affect on society than negative one.

 

[Mr_Moogle]

I don't like contributing to a thread derailment, but as an atheist myself, I am interested in this.

I don't think it's fair (or justifiable) to cast atheists as annoying anti-religion preachers. Any more than you can cast Christians as annoying proselytisers. Some are, some (I would say most, in both cases) aren't. I'll debate the existence of god with anyone who wants to, but I'm not going around knocking on people's doors saying "have you heard The Bad News".

It's the "have you heard the bad news" types that are annoying, I agree. There is nothing wrong with having a conversation about religion. It's an interesting subject. When I say keep religion to yourself, what I mean is don't preach to a crowd if they don't want to hear it. You can only have those kind of conversations if there is a decent amount of trust and mutual respect otherwise it tends to be a shitshow.

 

[footy4ever]

You can't dismiss that religion as a whole has had a much greater positive affect on society than negative one.

Holy shitbags, history is your friend.

 

[Deaneus!]

I wasn't aware that those guys committed their crimes "in the name of atheism".

Atheist committing a crime does not equal person committing a crime in the name of atheism.

ah I misread, apologies

 

[FAITH]

Holy shitbags, history is your friend.

sure is.

 

[WetCrow1991]

I'm sure many of them have done much more for the community than you and I, but they get no credit.

Incorrect. I am not at all surprised that you of all people think this though.

And many will acknowledge that their religion was the main reason why they are who they are and act the way they do.

You can't dismiss that religion as a whole has had a much greater positive affect on society than negative one.

I guess that is just matter of perspective there champ.

 

[FAITH]

Incorrect. I am not at all surprised that you of all people think this though.



I guess that is just matter of perspective there champ.

what don't you agree with?

 

[WetCrow1991]

And you seem to be negative towards all religion.

I'm with arrowman on this, there's campaigners in all walks of life regardless of what they do or dont believe in

Except I've already made the distinction between believers and the institutions of organised religion.

 

[Mr_Moogle]

I mean this thread is a perfect example of why you have to be careful. I had the audacity to say reminiscing about going to a strip club on twitter isn't the most christian thing ever and even that was enough to trigger a few people.

 

[WetCrow1991]

what don't you agree with?

The idea that the 'greater positive affect' of religion is a given.

The world doesn't work like that, it is a matter of perspective.

 

[FAITH]

The idea that the 'greater positive affect' of religion is a given.

The world doesn't work like that, it is a matter of perspective.

Out of interest, have you travelled around the world much?
You come across as someone who hasn't had much worldly experience.

 

[FAITH]

I mean this thread is a perfect example of why you have to be careful. I had the audacity to say reminiscing about going to a strip club on twitter isn't the most christian thing ever and even that was enough to trigger a few people.

I mean no ones perfect man, even devout muslims and christians heck up daily, doesn't make them hypocrites just weak.

 

[arrowman]

Hitler.....

Wasn't an athiest.

It's a complicated one. On balance I would say that Hitler wasn't motivated by atheism as such, but he did seem to have a set against organised (Christian) religion.

I'm not going to die on the hill of "atheists never commit crimes in the name of atheism as such" but I do place a great deal of weight on Steven Weinberg's quote:
"With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Well Athiests don't have institutions so they can't institutionalise child molestation like organised religions can. To be clear, the issue here is with the people that run the religious clubs, not the fans.

Good comment. I don't hold Christians, or in particular Catholics, or even their churches (communities) in general, responsible for those crimes, it's the campaigners in charge, who are/were motivated by protecting the institution, more than the religion.

And "atheists don't have institutions" cuts both ways. Sometimes people point to all the faith-based charities and say "show me all the atheist charities doing good work". To which I reply
1. We don't have institutions, and
2. Lions, Rotary, Fred Hollows.... they don't "act in the name of atheism" but they're not motivated by religion, either.

I'm sure many of them have done much more for the community than you and I, but they get no credit.
And many will acknowledge that their religion was the main reason why they are who they are and act the way they do.

I disagree. I think "good people", if you like, who happen to be religious, conflate the two when there is no necessary correlation or cause and effect. (See Weinberg above). And I think it's a pretty grim view of humanity to think that we need to have a belief in a mythical god - and especially to be under threat/pressure from that god - to be good people and to do good things.

You can't dismiss that religion as a whole has had a much greater positive affect on society than negative one.

I can actually. Partly because I think the "positive effect" is just good people doing good things, without religion being the cause - as above.

It's the "have you heard the bad news" types that are annoying, I agree. There is nothing wrong with having a conversation about religion. It's an interesting subject.

This is where, as an atheist, I have more time for the late, great Christopher Hitchens than I do for Richard Dawkins. Both have/had a disdainful, hostile even, attitude to religion, and write/wrote/speak/spoke strongly about it, sometimes in quite eviscerating terms - but somehow I find Hitchens to be more - I don't know, urbane and articulate (and funny) whereas Dawkins just comes across as angry, hostile and annoying. Even though they are really saying the same things.

 

[WetCrow1991]

Out of interest, have you travelled around the world much?

A lot.

You come across as someone who hasn't had much worldly experience.

No I don't.

 

[hey shorty]

The idea that the 'greater positive affect' of religion is a given.

The world doesn't work like that, it is a matter of perspective.

You seem to think you're the moral compass of this board at times.

It's quite funny.

 

[Mr_Moogle]

This is where, as an atheist, I have more time for the late, great Christopher Hitchens than I do for Richard Dawkins. Both have/had a disdainful, hostile even, attitude to religion, and write/wrote/speak/spoke strongly about it, sometimes in quite eviscerating terms - but somehow I find Hitchens to be more - I don't know, urbane and articulate (and funny) whereas Dawkins just comes across as angry, hostile and annoying. Even though they are really saying the same things.

Remember when Dawkins went on Q&A? That was the most awkward shit ever. He gave his usual performance but kept getting nervous laughter from the crowd, minute later he's like "why is everybody laughing?". I felt bad for him, he was clearly knowledgeable but had no clue how to communicate with that kind of audience.

 

[WetCrow1991]

You seem to think you're the moral compass of this board at times.

It's quite funny.

No I don't. What is funny is you've chosen to project motivations rather than respond to post your replying to.

 

[hey shorty]

No I don't. What is funny is you've chosen to project motivations rather than respond to post your replying to.

Ok champ

 

[Crow Envy]

The non-believers should be working Christmas and New Years without penalty rates, problem solved