List Mgmt. 2020 Trade/FA TARGETS

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Trade hypotheticals and discussion of how you think or want a trade to happen go here - 2020 FA, Draft and Trade HYPOTHETICAL thread.

If you want to talk about a current Hawthorn player and if they’re staying on the list, it goes here - Should I stay or should I go now? End of season list management discussion (now continued for 2020)

Trade/FA targets thread is for discussion of News about players we are to target via trade of FA. It’s not for “Kane Cornes says we should get this player”.
 
Brant said:
Check the umpiring all 2016 in favour of the Throwdogs - especially their final against us: 101 tackles for 3 free kicks. YES - that Premier was decided at the end of 2015. You're spot on - that's exactly what the AFL did - hand one to Footscray before GilWS matured.

The 5 players you mention didn't take 'unders' to stay with you. Cogs, for example, was offered less than $1m to play at HFC (rumoured about $900k by our ITK), yet with #ambassador payments he accepted considerably more to stay at GilWS. Don't compare what a player could demand at North Melbourne to what their actual market rate is at a real club. Just because North offer $1.3m doesn't mean the player is worth more than $900k; nor, should that player be congratulated for signing on at $900k with a view to success at GILWS - just for refusing North's offer of $1.3m (and all other offers at $850k).

Signing these guys to extended contracts isn't the risk it would be at other Clubs - you know why... Signing these guys to long deals signifies allegiance & commitment to younger guys - exactly what it's supposed to do. It's an investment in getting younger guys to continue to sign - not a risk of being stuck with a long-term injured player - again, you know why.

I agree that the GilWS list is being galvanised, but it's the unseen hand tipping the scales in GilWS' List Management favour that is allowing it.

For what it's worth, I have no issue with a guy getting $950k when his market value is $800k if he had no interest in leaving anyway - good luck to him. What upsets me (& maybe a bunch of others) is that you get to keep multiple guys at $800k (or $950k) when other Clubs couldn't afford to due to Salary Cap pressure. The other corruption is that GilWS can then match bids for RFA with impunity, when structuring a front-ended deal should preclude it from being possible.

I'm 100% in agreement that your players are desperate to achieve a collective goal - they collectively all want to be the hero on Grand Final Day - probs why they play like an All Star Team & get dismantled when they meet real opposition.

To finish... the club was built in a boardroom, (with the greatest haul of draft concessions known to the sport), in another State, based on a marketing decision as to how to generate new revenue streams. If that is the new definition of 'from scratch', so be it...
Click to expand...
Spot on. Its $900k a year, plus another $1m a year off the books. So it's $1.9m a year for 7 years. Who in their right mind turns that down?? Lol.
 
I think we r over estimating the numbers here. The risk is not the amount but the length of the contract. Yes some of them get ambassador payments but not all. It can be done. Its easy to jump to conclusions because thats what u want to believe. Cogs was def undecided but in the end the length of contract and ambasssador payments and the captaincy swayed him.

Lets see how this plays out there will still be some low hanging fruit
 
TheFourPillars said:
I think we r over estimating the numbers here. The risk is not the amount but the length of the contract. Yes some of them get ambassador payments but not all. It can be done. Its easy to jump to conclusions because thats what u want to believe. Cogs was def undecided but in the end the length of contract and ambasssador payments and the captaincy swayed him.

Lets see how this plays out there will still be some low hanging fruit
Click to expand...
+ 3rd party deals ?

AFL cant sign them all up as Gillionaire Ambassadors with 3rd Party side deals.
There will always need to be some B+ types leaving to make room for the conveyor belt of 1st rounders warehoused in the NEAFL
and
Eventually the front loaded A graders will need to be moved on too, as the new 1st rounders who live up to the potential start needing their ambassadorships and 3rd party deals and to give the illusion of a "salary cap"
 

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JaegarTime said:
Also have heard De Goey WILL be leaving Collingwood end of this year. He’s got the game winning ability but maybe not a player we structurally need?
Click to expand...
why then didn't he leave last year when North were throwing millions at him? doesn't make sense
 
Hawk Dork said:
+ 3rd party deals ?

AFL cant sign them all up as Gillionaire Ambassadors with 3rd Party side deals.
There will always need to be some B+ types leaving to make room for the conveyor belt of 1st rounders warehoused in the NEAFL
and
Eventually the front loaded A graders will need to be moved on too, as the new 1st rounders who live up to the potential start needing their ambassadorships and 3rd party deals and to give the illusion of a "salary cap"
Click to expand...

Dangerous trying to have a discussion here with the level of hysteria being thrown around.

Just a few things to consider.

It is a widely known fact that players from all clubs frequently stay for significantly less than the open market particularly when they are comfortable.

This is one of the great advantages the Victorian teams hold as over 60% of drafted talent comes from Victoria. The disadvantage teams like GWS and GCS have is in the initial drafting process where we frequently have to pay overs to extend draftees.

This does put pressure on the cap and ultimately leads to spillage of players which we have had every year. We haven’t just lost players we didn’t want, we did not want to lose Treloar, Shiel, Lobb, Wilson, Adams, Smith, Marchbank but had to as there is a salary cap which we do abide by.

Yes we do have a large group of high quality talent on bigger contracts but also have a large group of players on the lowest contracts available such as Reid, Lloyd, Keeffe, De Boer plus a bunch of draftees (not re-signed) from last year and this year all on the minimum AFL contract and Finlayson still playing for significant unders.

We have taken the strategy of increasing tenure to frankly ridiculous amounts which could really hurt us in the future but it was the only way we could keep the core together in the face of big offers from interstate.

Just a few other points, every club (including Hawthorn) is entitled to ambassadorial payments within their cap. This is not a KFC herbs and spices amount it is known and reported by all clubs and ticked off. If you think the likes of Eddie McGuire would stay quiet if there was a secret extra stream of money going to GCS and GWS players then you don’t know the man.

His beef and the main beef of the big clubs is they would like GWS and GCS to be less dependant financially on the bigger clubs which lose out with club taxes and revenue share.

This off course is balanced out with the fact the TV Rights deal which is shared is now significantly more lucrative for the sport.

One other thing you guys should really appreciate when throwing around salary cap conspiracy theories. Presently you can very legally pay your players (and do) legitimately outside the salary cap via non official channels.

Dylan Shiel at Essendon for example is getting “work experience” as a property developer and other such arrangements with “friends” of clubs are very frequent and used to lure and keep players. All these AFL players like Treloar that pop up on SEN and the like, do you think they are doing that for nothing and what is GWS equivalent? The not widely known Blacktown Gazette where they are thrown millions in secret payments??

This is known and legal but is a big advantage to the large commercial clubs that have wide financial networks. West Coast are known to utilise their network and as you can see they keep all the players they want to keep.

I do find it interesting that you think this is an AFL conspiracy. Not suspicious of West Coast? Or what about Collingwood who have just as many high level stars, but have been far more active in the open market and are just about to sign their star ruckman to a multi year million dollar plus contract..I wonder why? Perhaps because it doesn’t suit the narrative of AFL hysteria. The same AFL that rubbed out Stevie J and Greene for prelims and put Phil Scully’s 100k contract on the cap for 5 years.

Anyway keep believing in UFO’s and Bigfoots, no doubt if you believe hard enough one will show up and all the theorising and hate spilling will become worthwhile 👍
 
Last edited:
Andre the Giant said:
Dangerous trying to have a discussion here with the level of hysteria being thrown around.

Just a few things to consider.

It is a widely known fact that players from all clubs frequently stay for significantly less than the open market particularly when they are comfortable.

This is one of the great advantages the Victorian teams hold as over 60% of drafted talent comes from Victoria. The disadvantage teams like GWS and GCS have is in the initial drafting process where we frequently have to pay overs to extend draftees.

This does put pressure on the cap and ultimately leads to spillage of players which we have had every year. We haven’t just lost players we didn’t want, we did not want to lose Treloar, Shiel, Lobb, Wilson, Adams, Smith, Marchbank but had to as there is a salary cap which we do abide too.

Yes we do have a large group of high quality talent on bigger contracts but also have a large group of players on the lowest contracts available such as Reid, Lloyd, Keeffe, De Boer plus a bunch of draftees (not re-signed) from last year and this year all on the minimum AFL contract and Finlayson still playing for significant unders.

We have taken the strategy of increasing tenure to frankly ridiculous amounts which could really hurt us in the future but it was the only way we could keep the core together in the face of big offers from interstate.

Just a few other points, every club (including Hawthorn) is entitled to ambassadorial payments within their cap. This is not a KFC herbs and spices amount it is known and reported by all clubs and ticked off. If you think the likes of Eddie McGuire would stay quiet if there was a secret extra stream of money going to GCS and GWS players then you don’t know the man.

His beef and the main beef of the big clubs is they would like GWS and GCS to be less dependant financially on the bigger clubs which lose out with club taxes and revenue share.

This off course is balanced out with the fact the TV Rights deal which is shared is now significantly more lucrative for the sport.

One other thing you guys should really appreciate when throwing around salary cap conspiracy theories. Presently you can very legally pay your players (and do) legitimately outside the salary cap via non official channels.

Dylan Shiel for example is getting “work experience” as a property developer and other such arrangements with “friends” of clubs are very frequent and used to lure and keep players.

This is known and legal but is a big advantage to the large commercial clubs that have wide financial networks. West Coast are known to utilise their network and as you can see they keep all the players they want to keep.

I do find it interesting that you think this is an AFL conspiracy. Not suspicious of West Coast Collingwood that have just as many high level stars but have been far more active in the open market and are just about to sign their star ruckman to a multi year million dollar plus contract..:I wonder why? Perhaps because it doesn’t suit the narrative of AFL hysteria. The same AFL that rubbed out Stevie J and Greene for prelims and put Phil Scully’s 100k contract on the cap for 5 years.

Anyway keep believing in UFO’s and Bigfoots, no doubt if you believe hard enough one will show up and all the theorising and hate spilling will become worthwhile 👍
Click to expand...
Do the maths
 
Andre the Giant said:
Dangerous trying to have a discussion here with the level of hysteria being thrown around.

Just a few things to consider.

It is a widely known fact that players from all clubs frequently stay for significantly less than the open market particularly when they are comfortable.

This is one of the great advantages the Victorian teams hold as over 60% of drafted talent comes from Victoria. The disadvantage teams like GWS and GCS have is in the initial drafting process where we frequently have to pay overs to extend draftees.

This does put pressure on the cap and ultimately leads to spillage of players which we have had every year. We haven’t just lost players we didn’t want, we did not want to lose Treloar, Shiel, Lobb, Wilson, Adams, Smith, Marchbank but had to as there is a salary cap which we do abide too.

Yes we do have a large group of high quality talent on bigger contracts but also have a large group of players on the lowest contracts available such as Reid, Lloyd, Keeffe, De Boer plus a bunch of draftees (not re-signed) from last year and this year all on the minimum AFL contract and Finlayson still playing for significant unders.

We have taken the strategy of increasing tenure to frankly ridiculous amounts which could really hurt us in the future but it was the only way we could keep the core together in the face of big offers from interstate.

Just a few other points, every club (including Hawthorn) is entitled to ambassadorial payments within their cap. This is not a KFC herbs and spices amount it is known and reported by all clubs and ticked off. If you think the likes of Eddie McGuire would stay quiet if there was a secret extra stream of money going to GCS and GWS players then you don’t know the man.

His beef and the main beef of the big clubs is they would like GWS and GCS to be less dependant financially on the bigger clubs which lose out with club taxes and revenue share.

This off course is balanced out with the fact the TV Rights deal which is shared is now significantly more lucrative for the sport.

One other thing you guys should really appreciate when throwing around salary cap conspiracy theories. Presently you can very legally pay your players (and do) legitimately outside the salary cap via non official channels.

Dylan Shiel for example is getting “work experience” as a property developer and other such arrangements with “friends” of clubs are very frequent and used to lure and keep players.

This is known and legal but is a big advantage to the large commercial clubs that have wide financial networks. West Coast are known to utilise their network and as you can see they keep all the players they want to keep.

I do find it interesting that you think this is an AFL conspiracy. Not suspicious of West Coast Collingwood that have just as many high level stars but have been far more active in the open market and are just about to sign their star ruckman to a multi year million dollar plus contract..:I wonder why? Perhaps because it doesn’t suit the narrative of AFL hysteria. The same AFL that rubbed out Stevie J and Greene for prelims and put Phil Scully’s 100k contract on the cap for 5 years.

Anyway keep believing in UFO’s and Bigfoots, no doubt if you believe hard enough one will show up and all the theorising and hate spilling will become worthwhile 👍
Click to expand...

I think this is an astute and balanced post.
I agree that there are a lot of posters on this site, and on other BF sites, who are getting a little bit hysterical and irrational about AFL conspiracy accusations, particularly regarding GWS, Gold Coast and West Coast.
 
MrPremiership said:
why then didn't he leave last year when North were throwing millions at him? doesn't make sense
Click to expand...

dont have the answer to this but maybe he saw it as Collingwood were in the window and wanted a premiership before splitting. I will never claim that this is bulletproof info but it’s from a source within Collingwood I know.
Take with a grain of salt etc etc
 
MrPremiership said:
why then didn't he leave last year when North were throwing millions at him? doesn't make sense
Click to expand...
North are nowhere near it - just make up the numbers every year. If I was a true game winner like De Goey who could tip a close club over the line, I'd be looking for reasonable offers from contenders, of which Collingwood is much, much closer than North.
 
Andre the Giant said:
Dangerous trying to have a discussion here with the level of hysteria being thrown around.

Just a few things to consider.

It is a widely known fact that players from all clubs frequently stay for significantly less than the open market particularly when they are comfortable.

This is one of the great advantages the Victorian teams hold as over 60% of drafted talent comes from Victoria. The disadvantage teams like GWS and GCS have is in the initial drafting process where we frequently have to pay overs to extend draftees.

This does put pressure on the cap and ultimately leads to spillage of players which we have had every year. We haven’t just lost players we didn’t want, we did not want to lose Treloar, Shiel, Lobb, Wilson, Adams, Smith, Marchbank but had to as there is a salary cap which we do abide by.

Yes we do have a large group of high quality talent on bigger contracts but also have a large group of players on the lowest contracts available such as Reid, Lloyd, Keeffe, De Boer plus a bunch of draftees (not re-signed) from last year and this year all on the minimum AFL contract and Finlayson still playing for significant unders.

We have taken the strategy of increasing tenure to frankly ridiculous amounts which could really hurt us in the future but it was the only way we could keep the core together in the face of big offers from interstate.

Just a few other points, every club (including Hawthorn) is entitled to ambassadorial payments within their cap. This is not a KFC herbs and spices amount it is known and reported by all clubs and ticked off. If you think the likes of Eddie McGuire would stay quiet if there was a secret extra stream of money going to GCS and GWS players then you don’t know the man.

His beef and the main beef of the big clubs is they would like GWS and GCS to be less dependant financially on the bigger clubs which lose out with club taxes and revenue share.

This off course is balanced out with the fact the TV Rights deal which is shared is now significantly more lucrative for the sport.

One other thing you guys should really appreciate when throwing around salary cap conspiracy theories. Presently you can very legally pay your players (and do) legitimately outside the salary cap via non official channels.

Dylan Shiel at Essendon for example is getting “work experience” as a property developer and other such arrangements with “friends” of clubs are very frequent and used to lure and keep players. All these AFL players like Treloar that pop up on SEN and the like, do you think they are doing that for nothing and what is GWS equivalent? The not widely known Blacktown Gazette where they are thrown millions in secret payments??

This is known and legal but is a big advantage to the large commercial clubs that have wide financial networks. West Coast are known to utilise their network and as you can see they keep all the players they want to keep.

I do find it interesting that you think this is an AFL conspiracy. Not suspicious of West Coast? Or what about Collingwood who have just as many high level stars, but have been far more active in the open market and are just about to sign their star ruckman to a multi year million dollar plus contract..I wonder why? Perhaps because it doesn’t suit the narrative of AFL hysteria. The same AFL that rubbed out Stevie J and Greene for prelims and put Phil Scully’s 100k contract on the cap for 5 years.

Anyway keep believing in UFO’s and Bigfoots, no doubt if you believe hard enough one will show up and all the theorising and hate spilling will become worthwhile 👍
Click to expand...
Really good post. I think that the hysterical GWS conspiracy theories are getting a bit much. We will see the impact of these deals if/when players have injuries, start to taper off, lose motivation, etc. In the same way we're seeing the impact of the buddy deal now.

I would also be extremely suprised if GWS are paying as much as is rumoured to most of these players. Just because amounts have been offered by competitors doesn't mean that is what is being paid to keep them at GWS. It takes a good chunk of change to shift a player from a club unless they are really unhappy with the environment/prospects (I'd suggest at least 10% - in Buddy's case he moved for nearly 20%). And I think the GWS players will have made a similar commitment to what the Hawks did during our 2008-2016 era.

That said, they will continue to bleed B+ to C+ players, which is where we will look to (and already have!) take advantage of the situation.
 
tommyk72 said:
Really good post. I think that the hysterical GWS conspiracy theories are getting a bit much. We will see the impact of these deals if/when players have injuries, start to taper off, lose motivation, etc. In the same way we're seeing the impact of the buddy deal now.

I would also be extremely suprised if GWS are paying as much as is rumoured to most of these players. Just because amounts have been offered by competitors doesn't mean that is what is being paid to keep them at GWS. It takes a good chunk of change to shift a player from a club unless they are really unhappy with the environment/prospects (I'd suggest at least 10% - in Buddy's case he moved for nearly 20%). And I think the GWS players will have made a similar commitment to what the Hawks did during our 2008-2016 era.

That said, they will continue to bleed B+ to C+ players, which is where we will look to (and already have!) take advantage of the situation.
Click to expand...
I was told by someone who works in AFL house that the afl did intervene and strongly pressured cogs to stay and this included financial inducements. It’s not a theory or speculation, it’s testimony from an insider.
 
Brishawk said:
I was told by someone who works in AFL house that the afl did intervene and strongly pressured cogs to stay and this included financial inducements. It’s not a theory or speculation, it’s testimony from an insider.
Click to expand...
Why do you think prominent actors have not raised this then? The Kennett's, McGuire's, etc. would also have these insights. I can see them intervening, and helping, but I'm not sure I believe in this myth of the ever-expandable salary cap/payments issue.
 

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tommyk72 said:
Why do you think prominent actors have not raised this then? The Kennett's, McGuire's, etc. would also have these insights. I can see them intervening, and helping, but I'm not sure I believe in this myth of the ever-expandable salary cap/payments issue.
Click to expand...
We need $10m for Dingley & wanted to get off Sunday @ 3:40pm timeslot.
 
hfc70 said:
I did my Supercoach team using all AFL Giants players. Even with the lowest priced players, I was $3.6 million over the cap !!!??? Go figure
Click to expand...

Just crunched the numbers and run some projections, Hawthorn have the second highest average supercoach price per player. This doesn't include draftees so it may equalise.

Edit: Equalised a bit, but still the second highest average price to West Coast.
 
Last edited:
rogiebear93 said:
Just crunched the numbers and run some projections, Hawthorn have the second highest average supercoach price per player. This doesn't include draftees so it may equalise.

Edit: Equalised a bit, but still the second highest average price to West Coast.
Click to expand...
Probably mostly due to SC king Titch!
 
If anyone was interested, here are the player percentages per price bracket:

Club500+400-500300-400200-300100-200
GWS
12.20​
9.76​
26.83​
24.39​
26.83​
Carlton
11.11​
13.33​
22.22​
22.22​
31.11​
Brisbane Lions
8.89​
15.56​
20.00​
17.78​
37.78​
West Coast
7.69​
25.64​
15.38​
28.21​
23.08​
Richmond
7.14​
14.29​
30.95​
11.90​
35.71​
Hawthorn
6.98​
16.28​
34.88​
16.28​
25.58​
Western Bulldogs
6.67​
15.56​
28.89​
24.44​
24.44​
Adelaide
6.52​
17.39​
21.74​
19.57​
34.78​
Collingwood
6.38​
14.89​
31.91​
19.15​
27.66​
Melbourne
4.76​
14.29​
21.43​
38.10​
21.43​
Sydney
4.55​
9.09​
34.09​
22.73​
29.55​
St Kilda
4.35​
23.91​
26.09​
21.74​
23.91​
Essendon
4.26​
10.64​
36.17​
21.28​
27.66​
Fremantle
4.26​
8.51​
36.17​
21.28​
29.79​
Port Adelaide
2.27​
18.18​
34.09​
15.91​
29.55​
Geelong
2.22​
20.00​
31.11​
15.56​
31.11​
North Melbourne
2.22​
17.78​
35.56​
15.56​
28.89​
Gold Coast
1.92​
11.54​
28.85​
32.69​
25.00​
 
Watsclarkosmob said:
Is Jack Silvagni, one gettable with all these issues at Carlton and two worth it for the right price? The kid has some talent but surely could thrive in a less toxic environment.

On Redmi Note 4 using BigFooty.com mobile app
Click to expand...
I don’t really see him as worth pursuing. But one reason for getting rid of sos would be to open the way to sacking his kids. So they might be very gettable 😉
 
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