List Mgmt. 2020 Trade and List Management Thread II

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Tiberius said:
My memory may not be all that great, (actually it's pretty bloody good but it's important to be self-deprecating) but I don't recall anyone ever suggesting that Brown was a limited, one dimensional footballer during the seasons where he was kicking lots of goals. Is it just me or has he only become a one trick pony since we decided to trade him? Usual operating procedure is to talk up the players a team is trying to trade I would have thought. We've somehow turned Brown into a poor man's David Mensch.
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Brown may not be the best physical one on one contested marking forward but he has all other areas well and truly covered. One thing above all other fwds is he seems to be a fantastic team player. He does what he has to even if that means as the No.1 fwd you at times play as the decoy. If we can't achieve a strong trade for Brown we retain him on a contract where Rama doesn't get carried away.
 
giantroo said:
Geelong is out of the race for Brad Crouch and has taken Brandan Parfitt out of the Jeremy Cameron trade picture by re-signing him for two seasons.

The Cats are thrilled to have attracted star free agent Cameron but will now have to trade for him given GWS is intent on matching a bid.

Geelong has a trio of first-round picks but GWS has already indicated it would like young players in the package before it releases Cameron.

The Giants under AFL rules can match a bid then force a trade, with Cameron’s only other option to stay or go into the pre-season draft.

The Herald Sun understands Sam Simpson and Esava Ratugolea are two players the Giants have in their sights.

Parfitt would be the perfect midfielder to compliment the band of hard inside onballers at GWS.

But it is understood he officially agreed to terms with Geelong last week as Adelaide expressed interest if the Cats lured Brad Crouch.

Parfitt is a South Australian and in the perfect age bracket for Adelaide to try to drag him back home if it matched a Crouch bid and tried to force a trade.

But even before the Cats got confirmation Jeremy Cameron was moving south, they had made clear they weren’t bidders on Crouch any more.

At one stage there were heavily into both Jack Viney and Crouch but the Demons midfielder signed with Melbourne for five seasons.

The Cats will also secure North Melbourne’s Shaun Higgins, believing he is the perfect swap for a retiring Gary Ablett.

Geelong could also get a late second-round pick for Nakia Cockatoo, who the Herald Sun revealed last month will join Brisbane.

A second or third-round pick might help them with a trade package to satisfy GWS.

Geelong will sign Tom Hawkins on a two-year contract and can secure Cameron with a deal of between $800,000 and $900,000.

It is hard to think of a star pair of forwards who can work better together — and they are the last two Coleman Medal winners – given Cameron is happy to roam far and wide and Hawkins plays from the square.

With Patrick Dangerfield also playing forward and Higgins on a half-forward flank it will be one of footy’s most terrifying forward lines.

Geelong has always had a principle of a broad pay structure where it does not bring in players who are paid more than its best player (in this case Patrick Dangerfield) and its captain (Joel Selwood).

Even with the COVID cut, to secure Cameron for around $850,000 is a masterstroke given the AFL’s highest-paid stars are on around $1.2 million a season.
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Cockatoo for a late 2nd? The media are really doing everything they can for the Cats. Richmond should just stay home on Saturday.
 

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Tiberius said:
My memory may not be all that great, (actually it's pretty bloody good but it's important to be self-deprecating) but I don't recall anyone ever suggesting that Brown was a limited, one dimensional footballer during the seasons where he was kicking lots of goals. Is it just me or has he only become a one trick pony since we decided to trade him? Usual operating procedure is to talk up the players a team is trying to trade I would have thought. We've somehow turned Brown into a poor man's David Mensch.
Click to expand...

He's been criticised for a long while for his ability to mark in a contested situation (although personally I never thought he got OUTmarked often, simply wasn't great at marking it himself) and defensive pressure. There are certainly more complete forwards around, and much better contested marking ones, but none that can do Brown's schtick to the same level he can.

With the prospect of not challenging for a couple of years though, the question needed to be asked if we are best suited with Brown and his play style. It seems they've done that and decided that no, it wasn't worth it. If I was say... A GWS fan though (if these exist, I still have doubts) I would be barracking incredibly hard for my club to grab him. I'd absolutely back Brown in to kick some big old fashioned bags on the end of the delivery the majority of the GWS mids are capable of. Brown is a harder worker and probably a better team player than Cameron as well, tbqh, and those are two things their team needs more of rather desperately.
 
Geelong -> Cameron and Higgins
GWS -> Brown, 18, 24
North -> 11 and 13

Carlton will not want to fork over #7 for Saad. Let's help them out
Carlton -> 13 and 2021 2nd round pick
North -> 7

Sydney want their academy pick. Let's help them out
Sydney -> 9 and 11
North -> 3

Out: Brown, Higgins, 9, 2021 2nd round
In: 3 and 7
Free agent: Corr

Draft: 2, 3, 7, 25, 57, 65

Draft: McDonald, Hollands, Phillips
 
Rooboys Rool said:
Full trade / list management / draft scenario here. Salary dumps, pick upgrades, live trades. Pretty much got it all, so if it's not your thing.... y'know.

Start with picks 2, 9, 25, 57, 65 & 75.

1. Pick up Corr as a free agent.

2. Higgins and pick 65 to Geelong for pick 34, 2021 2nd pick and Jenkins (yes, Jenkins). Based on current picks and Geelong's 2021 pick being pick 35, that values Higgins at pick 19 on a points basis. The Jenkins salary dump is what gets us a high value for Higgins here, as it gives them room to get Cameron. Jenkins is a spud, but can give some coverage as a key forward in 2021. Larkey as No. 1, with Walker, Jenkins, Comben & Xerri to roll through the No. 2 position throughout the year, with focus on giving Comben as much exposure as he can handle.

3. Brown & 2021 4th pick to GWS for picks 18 & 46. Assuming GWS get pick 18 from Geelong for Cameron. If our 2021 4th is pick 56, this values Brown at pick 15, but that would slide a fair bit with pick 18 likely to end up at about pick 25 after bids. Still not having any of this Brown for a late 2nd nonsense.

4. Trade picks 25, 34 & 46 to Bulldogs for pick 12 & 2021 4th pick. On 2020 picks, that gives the Bulldogs a 361 point gain to go towards JUH. But we can effectively add another couple of hundred points to it by guaranteeing we won't bid on JUH, giving the Bulldogs an incentive to trade with us. The 2021 Bulldogs pick lessens their point gain a bit overall, but doubt they would be concerned about this - I think they are likely to trade a 2021 pick to get more points this year to match a JUH bid.

Now onto live trades, which are based on Adelaide taking McDonald with pick 1 and us assessing DGB, Thilthorpe and Hollands equally (just forget about JUH and any bids for now).

5. Trade pick 2 to Sydney for pick 3 and their 2021 2nd & 4th picks. If those Sydney 2021 picks are at 24 & 60, the net gain to us of this trade in points value is equivalent to about pick 30. Sydney select Thilthorpe.

6. Trade pick 3 to Hawthorn for picks 4 and 21. On these initial picks this works out to a gain of about pick 28, but with pick 21 likely to push out quite a bit with bids it is more like a gain of about pick 35. Hawthorn select DGB.

End with picks 4, 9, 12, 18, 21, 57 & 75.

Taking into account bids, we take at the draft:
5 - Hollands
13 - Cox
18 - Carroll
25 - Ford
29 - Laurie
52 - Winder
59 - Lane
Rookie picks 2 & 20.

Overall:
Out - Ahern, Brown, Crocker, Daw, Durdin, Higgins, Hosie, Jacobs, Macmillan, Murphy, Pittard, Williams, Wood.
In: Corr, Jenkins, Hollands, Cox, Carroll, Ford, Laurie, Winder, Lane, 2 x rookies. (List reduction of 2.)

In the 2021 draft we have lost our 4th pick, but gained Geelong's 2nd pick, Sydney's 2nd & 4th picks, and Bulldogs 4th pick.
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Good work, you must have a lot of time on your hands.
 
Had a quick look and the media reporting that Higgins is gone, they have anything on this or just standard speculation?
 
Devington said:
He's been criticised for a long while for his ability to mark in a contested situation (although personally I never thought he got OUTmarked often, simply wasn't great at marking it himself) and defensive pressure. There are certainly more complete forwards around, and much better contested marking ones, but none that can do Brown's schtick to the same level he can.

With the prospect of not challenging for a couple of years though, the question needed to be asked if we are best suited with Brown and his play style. It seems they've done that and decided that no, it wasn't worth it. If I was say... A GWS fan though (if these exist, I still have doubts) I would be barracking incredibly hard for my club to grab him. I'd absolutely back Brown in to kick some big old fashioned bags on the end of the delivery the majority of the GWS mids are capable of. Brown is a harder worker and probably a better team player than Cameron as well, tbqh, and those are two things their team needs more of rather desperately.
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Career contested mark per game.
Ben Brown: 1.6
Charlie Dixon: 1.7
Jeremey Cameron: 1.0
Joe Daniher: 1.8
Tom Lynch: 2.0
 
kangatime said:
Career contested mark per game.
Ben Brown: 1.6
Charlie Dixon: 1.7
Jeremey Cameron: 1.0
Joe Daniher: 1.8
Tom Lynch: 2.0
Click to expand...

It doesn’t bother me that much about his contested marking but he does get out marked a bit.

You got those figures
 
kangatime said:
Career contested mark per game.
Ben Brown: 1.6
Charlie Dixon: 1.7
Jeremey Cameron: 1.0
Joe Daniher: 1.8
Tom Lynch: 2.0
Click to expand...
In addition to this, I recommend people watch the 2019 goals video and see how often he gets free kicks in contested marking situations. (Hot tip: shitloads.)
 
big_e said:
In addition to this, I recommend people watch the 2019 goals video and see how often he gets free kicks in contested marking situations. (Hot tip: shitloads.)
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Many would argue this is one of the reasons why he is getting traded and maybe one of the reasons not a lot of sides are too hot on him.
 
Do you think there is a chance Quinton Narkle might be part of a Higgins trade? At 22 I think his worth a go. He has only played 17 games but that's trying to break into the Geelong team. Let's be honest If he was at North this year he would have been in the side each week. I also think he would love playing with our other indigenous boys.
 

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vic1 said:
Do you think there is a chance Quinton Narkle might be part of a Higgins trade? At 22 I think his worth a go. He has only played 17 games but that's trying to break into the Geelong team. Let's be honest If he was at North this year he would have been in the side each week. I also think he would love playing with our other indigenous boys.
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That's like me haggling for a new car then suddenly saying to the dealer "hey look, I was going to just chuck this empty chip packet in the bin but I'm happy to throw it into the deal".
 
Rooboys Rool said:
Full trade / list management / draft scenario here. Salary dumps, pick upgrades, live trades. Pretty much got it all, so if it's not your thing.... y'know.

Start with picks 2, 9, 25, 57, 65 & 75.

1. Pick up Corr as a free agent.

2. Higgins and pick 65 to Geelong for pick 34, 2021 2nd pick and Jenkins (yes, Jenkins). Based on current picks and Geelong's 2021 pick being pick 35, that values Higgins at pick 19 on a points basis. The Jenkins salary dump is what gets us a high value for Higgins here, as it gives them room to get Cameron. Jenkins is a spud, but can give some coverage as a key forward in 2021. Larkey as No. 1, with Walker, Jenkins, Comben & Xerri to roll through the No. 2 position throughout the year, with focus on giving Comben as much exposure as he can handle.

3. Brown & 2021 4th pick to GWS for picks 18 & 46. Assuming GWS get pick 18 from Geelong for Cameron. If our 2021 4th is pick 56, this values Brown at pick 15, but that would slide a fair bit with pick 18 likely to end up at about pick 25 after bids. Still not having any of this Brown for a late 2nd nonsense.

4. Trade picks 25, 34 & 46 to Bulldogs for pick 12 & 2021 4th pick. On 2020 picks, that gives the Bulldogs a 361 point gain to go towards JUH. But we can effectively add another couple of hundred points to it by guaranteeing we won't bid on JUH, giving the Bulldogs an incentive to trade with us. The 2021 Bulldogs pick lessens their point gain a bit overall, but doubt they would be concerned about this - I think they are likely to trade a 2021 pick to get more points this year to match a JUH bid.

Now onto live trades, which are based on Adelaide taking McDonald with pick 1 and us assessing DGB, Thilthorpe and Hollands equally (just forget about JUH and any bids for now).

5. Trade pick 2 to Sydney for pick 3 and their 2021 2nd & 4th picks. If those Sydney 2021 picks are at 24 & 60, the net gain to us of this trade in points value is equivalent to about pick 30. Sydney select Thilthorpe.

6. Trade pick 3 to Hawthorn for picks 4 and 21. On these initial picks this works out to a gain of about pick 28, but with pick 21 likely to push out quite a bit with bids it is more like a gain of about pick 35. Hawthorn select DGB.

End with picks 4, 9, 12, 18, 21, 57 & 75.

Taking into account bids, we take at the draft:
5 - Hollands
13 - Cox
18 - Carroll
25 - Ford
29 - Laurie
52 - Winder
59 - Lane
Rookie picks 2 & 20.

Overall:
Out - Ahern, Brown, Crocker, Daw, Durdin, Higgins, Hosie, Jacobs, Macmillan, Murphy, Pittard, Williams, Wood.
In: Corr, Jenkins, Hollands, Cox, Carroll, Ford, Laurie, Winder, Lane, 2 x rookies. (List reduction of 2.)

In the 2021 draft we have lost our 4th pick, but gained Geelong's 2nd pick, Sydney's 2nd & 4th picks, and Bulldogs 4th pick.
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Bloody hell!!!

That was intense...
 
Thewlis Dish said:
Well more based on us finishing 15th, 9th and 12th in the three seasons when he was kicking 60+.

This season only served to highlight Ben's limitations. Plenty of key forwards have had good years.
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If Browny is putting up the sort of numbers we see from GF winning forwards I reckon the blame for us missing finals in those years you mentioned might lie elsewhere. In one of those seasons the difference between us making finals and not making them was literally Capt. Jack missing five shots at goal.
 
Pykie said:
Many would argue this is one of the reasons why he is getting traded and maybe one of the reasons not a lot of sides are too hot on him.
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Which is ridiculous on the face of it. He gets those frees because the only way defenders can stop him marking the ball when it's to his advantage is by breaking the rules of the game.

I reckon he could end up with even more frees at the pies, * or a team that gets home town free kicks.
 
Joycey said:
I agree those players do have extra strings. But I think that is also selling Brown short. He may look like giraffe but Brown is pretty nibble at ground level:

In 2019 both Brown and Kennedy had ~23% of their total shots from open play and Brown had the greater accuracy:

I know it's not the most reliable measure but it's a lack of options and it's not as though he's useless when it hits the deck as this shows.

View attachment 990237

Surely endurance is another element that should be attributed to Brown. In an open forward line with good support he's going to run his opponent into the ground more often than not. Workrate could probably only be matched by Darling on that list.
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big_e said:
These are the leading goalkickers for each grand finalist for the past ten years, with their league-wide finishing position. So this year, three of the top five goalkickers are playing the grand final, last year it was two of the top three, and so on. There's only been three teams in the last ten years who have made it to a grand final without one of the top ten goalkickers.

2020 Richmond vs Geelong - Hawkins 1st, Riewoldt and Lynch equal 4th
2019 Richmond vs GWS - Cameron 1st, Lynch 3rd
2018 West Coast vs Collingwood - De Goey 8th, Darling 9th
2017 Richmond vs Adelaide - Riewoldt and Walker equal 6th
2016 Bulldogs vs Sydney - Franklin 2nd, Stringer 18th
2015 Hawthorn vs West Coast - Kennedy 1st, Gunston 5th
2014 Hawthorn vs Sydney - Franklin 1st, Roughead 2nd
2013 Hawthorn vs Fremantle - Roughead 1st, Walters 12th
2012 Hawthorn vs Sydney - Franklin 1st, Jetta 13th
2011 Geelong vs Collingwood - Cloke 2nd, Podsiadly 8th

A dominant forward doesn't guarantee success, but it's hard to have success without one.
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Every time I'm about to give up on this thread someone produces the goods.

Sure I sifted through 8 pages of complete s**t to get here. Small price to pay
 
vic1 said:
Do you think there is a chance Quinton Narkle might be part of a Higgins trade? At 22 I think his worth a go. He has only played 17 games but that's trying to break into the Geelong team. Let's be honest If he was at North this year he would have been in the side each week. I also think he would love playing with our other indigenous boys.
Click to expand...

I don't mind narkle isn't there talk of him being delisted even


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
Narkle lol, went pick 60 in the draft 4 years ago and hasn't done much to up his value, Played a good game against us once, surprise surprise.
 
Psicosis said:
The Cam Joyce #1 Criteria
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Josh Bruce for Ben Brown?
 
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