Autopsy 2021 Grand Final - Dees are Premiers

Who will win the AFL Grand Final?

  • Western Bulldogs

    Votes: 10 35.7%
  • Melbourne

    Votes: 18 64.3%

  • Total voters
    28

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Ligma

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Dec 15, 2020
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Was 10 when we won our 1st and 34 when '99 came around. '99 was a relief, really needed it to claim that ''team of 90s'' title, '96 was euphoric.
I'm really looking forward to seeing us win a fifth flag before I hit 60, so that being the case, you won't have to wait long, and even at your tender age, your life will then be complete ;)
Wow!!! That’s so cool that you’ve experienced all of them, that must of been amazing especially how the game has evolved. Fingers crossed we do, we have a driven group, no excuse why we can’t get there!
 

So You Think

Old blue eyes
Feb 28, 2011
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I was actually thinking that last night, they are the only team left with the term ’premiership drought’ left hanging over their heads (us in around 5 years:huh:). A lot of their fans revel in their misery and shitness, like it’s some sort of badge of honour. Not sure it’s been mentioned in the thread but a Doggies win would have meant them inching closer to our 4 flags and maybe even overtaken us in a few years. They’ve probably got another 5 years to do that I reckon, don’t think they will though.
Yeah, well everyone thought that about us until 73.
 

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Twinkletoes

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Wow!!! That’s so cool that you’ve experienced all of them, that must of been amazing especially how the game has evolved. Fingers crossed we do, we have a driven group, no excuse why we can’t get there!
I suspect you’ll find many of us Grumpy Old DILF’s have been in the stadium for all four of our flags, and the same goes for the losses and draw.

Hell, Horace may have been at the 1950 GF v * as a neutral.
 

Ligma

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I suspect you’ll find many of us Grumpy Old DILF’s have been in the stadium for all four of our flags, and the same goes for the losses and draw.

Hell, Horace may have been at the 1950 GF v * as a neutral.
Oh yes I think I have underestimated how old ppl here are lol old me would think those people are ancient where as now they are just as you said Grumpy Old Dilfs or GOD hehehe I think you are god
 

Kangaroos4eva

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I suspect you’ll find many of us Grumpy Old DILF’s have been in the stadium for all four of our flags, and the same goes for the losses and draw.

Hell, Horace may have been at the 1950 GF v * as a neutral.
Horace was there at the first Olympics cheering on the Thebans...
 

Marstermind

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It's a long time ago now, but I think Glendinning's first qtr against Moncreiff in '78 was costly, think he had 3 goals in the first 10-15 mins, and may have been the margin in the end
It was a factor. Moncrieff had 2 goals pretty much before we'd touched the ball and got a third late in the quarter. Probably what was more costly though was when Stan Alves and Malcolm Blight, who had won the Brownlow earlier in the week, were both injured and out of the game by half time. Two star players down and no one left on the bench.

Aside from the last quarter, the game wasn't too dissimilar to Saturday night. Hawthorn dominated the first quarter, we (and Phil Baker in particular) dominated the second to take a narrow lead at half time. We had the better of the early part of the third before the Hawks kicked 6 goals in 12 minutes to break open the game. We hung in there better than the Dogs, but kicked a few in junk time to make the scoreboard look respectable after falling 6 goals down late in the game.

This was the first GF I ever watched. I was 6 and living in Alexandra. I remember watching the start, fascinated by the very environmentally unfriendly release of the balloons and getting disheartened by being behind early. Dad ran the local dairy so we had a big yard so I went outside to kick the footy for most the afternoon (one of those brown plastic ones you used to get at petrol stations that were soft in the middle but rock hard at the ends). I came back in to find us beaten and cried for a bit.

As a kid who only followed the Roos because we were on top, it was hard to take, but not as hard having to wait 18 years before watching us in a Grand Final again properly. Now the drought has extended to 22 years, and literally every supporter from 1999 except us and our opponents that day has experienced it, the Grand Finals hurt a bit. Especially after watching others break their droughts. Although the Dogs in 2016, Tigers in 2017 and Dees this year are great stories, and their droughts longer than ours, I found myself a bit shitty after each game that it wasn't us. Happy enough for those teams, but spending a bit of the Saturday night and Sunday resentful that if those teams that were so awful for so long could work it out, why can't us?
 

Sphynx

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Jul 10, 2011
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Can see the Dee's going back to back as a minimum now.

The likes of Petracca, Oliver and Jackson are only going to get better. Basically all of their best 22 have multiple years left in them at their peak.

It would take a few big injuries or the loss of someone like Jackson back to WA to dent the progress imo. Gawn has at least 3-4 years also.

I can't see too many challengers. I'm not sure the Lions or Port have that gear to go up, Ports kids particularly are a bit overrated.

The Dogs have a few holes but will be a different beast once their young KPP's develop a bit. They are going to be a challenge for us in 4-5 years.

As yuck as it sounds, possibly Sydney or Essendon might be the main chances before we start really winding up the ladder. They appear to both have enough young talent to give Melbourne a test in the next 2-3 years.

Richmond are done imo.


The Dogs aren't going to peak until around 2024/2025 imo. Once Smith/Naughton/JUH/Darcy really start hitting their straps and Bont and Macrae are in their late 20's/early 30's.

Which will be a very interesting time for us, because I anticipate we will be a genuine top 4 side at that point.
 
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shintemaster

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As a kid who only followed the Roos because we were on top, it was hard to take, but not as hard having to wait 18 years before watching us in a Grand Final again properly. Now the drought has extended to 22 years, and literally every supporter from 1999 except us and our opponents that day has experienced it, the Grand Finals hurt a bit. Especially after watching others break their droughts. Although the Dogs in 2016, Tigers in 2017 and Dees this year are great stories, and their droughts longer than ours, I found myself a bit shitty after each game that it wasn't us. Happy enough for those teams, but spending a bit of the Saturday night and Sunday resentful that if those teams that were so awful for so long could work it out, why can't us?
I missed both those 90's GF's up close and wasn't around or too young for the 70's so it's been a long wait...

Your feelings almost completely match mine - I do wonder however how much of our struggle has been because of the amount of sheer energy and club resources that were expended over the two decades since 1999 on sheer survival...

For mine, 2023 onwards all going well things should start to really kick off.
 

Marstermind

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I missed both those 90's GF's up close and wasn't around or too young for the 70's so it's been a long wait...

Your feelings almost completely match mine - I do wonder however how much of our struggle has been because of the amount of sheer energy and club resources that were expended over the two decades since 1999 on sheer survival...

For mine, 2023 onwards all going well things should start to really kick off.
Totally concur. I'm fairly certain that the pay-off for rejecting the Gold Coast move in 2007 was to prioritise just surviving as a small Melbourne based club. To this end, the club did magnificently - Arden St redevelopment, planting community roots, inclusivity, attracting non-gambling revenue, erasing debt, building membership - to the point that whilst relocation still comes up, nobody of any importance takes it remotely seriously anymore.

However, at the same time the club probably didn't have sufficient courage to really make long-term list management ('bottoming-out' if you will) its main goal. They probably believed that we were still too insecure to survive what we're facing now - risking 4/5 years at the bottom to hopefully start a new premiership era. And maybe they were right. At best maybe we could 'pinch' a flag in the small 2014-16 window with the players we already had, FAs and what we got from the 2008-10 drafts. Again, maybe the club did OK as we got close, but when that window closed, again the club didn't fully back itself to do what needed to be done. It dilly-dallied, maybe didn't believe it was 'big-enough' yet, didn't fully commit to a rebuild (only going to drafts with picks earned), botched imports and here we are doing in 2021 what we should have been doing in 2017.

Flags are hard to win. Law of averages says that at best you can expect to win one every 18 years and anything more is a bonus. That lands us at 2017. 2001-07 was the slide out of a great era. 2008-12 was no-man's land but understandable given the instability of the club's existence and 2013-16 a hopeful/tentative flag push. But 2017-2020 should have been a rebuild and it wasn't. No man's land again but this time with no purpose. Wasted years. We should be starting a real challenge now but are 4-years behind schedule. And maybe while I'm pleased for the the recent premiers as it shows it can be done, I'm also increasingly peeved every year. Straight out jealousy.

Luckily, the club has cemented itself in the competition, believes in itself and are doing the right things with the list (I don't agree with everything but the overall daring and aggressive philosophy means I can live with what I don't like). It's just getting so frustrating having waited unnecessarily long and with still so far to go.
 
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Harris 10

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Can see the Dee's going back to back as a minimum now.

The likes of Petracca, Oliver and Jackson are only going to get better. Basically all of their best 22 have multiple years left in them at their peak.

It would take a few big injuries or the loss of someone like Jackson back to WA to dent the progress imo. Gawn has at least 3-4 years also.

I can't see too many challengers. I'm not sure the Lions or Port have that gear to go up, Ports kids particularly are a bit overrated.

The Dogs have a few holes but will be a different beast once their young KPP's develop a bit. They are going to be a challenge for us in 4-5 years.

As yuck as it sounds, possibly Sydney or Essendon might be the main chances before we start really winding up the ladder. They appear to both have enough young talent to give Melbourne a test in the next 2-3 years.

Richmond are done imo.


The Dogs aren't going to peak until around 2024/2025 imo. Once Smith/Naughton/JUH/Darcy really start hitting their straps and Bont and Macrae are in their late 20's/early 30's.

Which will be a very interesting time for us, because I anticipate we will be a genuine top 4 side at that point.
Good summary
16 out of the dees 22 on Sat played every game, it just shows if you keep your best 22 on the park you're going to go a long way.
 

Marstermind

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Good summary
16 out of the dees 22 on Sat played every game, it just shows if you keep your best 22 on the park you're going to go a long way.
Their midfield are almost all 24-26, between 90-140 games and played their whole careers together. There's the blueprint North - build the midfield through the draft. Once you have that, let them grow, supplement the list with Mays, Levers and Browns, start targeting the gaps, be patient and then hope for a shitload of luck.
 

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TennisPlayerAndy

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Their midfield are almost all 24-26, between 90-140 games and played their whole careers together. There's the blueprint North - build the midfield through the draft. Once you have that, let them grow, supplement the list with Mays, Levers and Browns, start targeting the gaps, be patient and then hope for a shitload of luck.
Stats updated post-GF:
07047263-6CC8-42F2-A318-B2AEECD740CE.jpeg


Viney and Hibberd are the only two you’d argue as best 22 who missed a chunk of games.

That’s a dream run.
 

hilly

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Can see the Dee's going back to back as a minimum now.

The likes of Petracca, Oliver and Jackson are only going to get better. Basically all of their best 22 have multiple years left in them at their peak.

It would take a few big injuries or the loss of someone like Jackson back to WA to dent the progress imo. Gawn has at least 3-4 years also.

I can't see too many challengers. I'm not sure the Lions or Port have that gear to go up, Ports kids particularly are a bit overrated.

The Dogs have a few holes but will be a different beast once their young KPP's develop a bit. They are going to be a challenge for us in 4-5 years.

As yuck as it sounds, possibly Sydney or Essendon might be the main chances before we start really winding up the ladder. They appear to both have enough young talent to give Melbourne a test in the next 2-3 years.

Richmond are done imo.


The Dogs aren't going to peak until around 2024/2025 imo. Once Smith/Naughton/JUH/Darcy really start hitting their straps and Bont and Macrae are in their late 20's/early 30's.

Which will be a very interesting time for us, because I anticipate we will be a genuine top 4 side at that point.
Melb is in a great spot but a lot of variables as there is for anyone trying to win two in a row.
 

ferball

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Good summary
16 out of the dees 22 on Sat played every game, it just shows if you keep your best 22 on the park you're going to go a long way.
IN 2016 before the run of injuries we had very similar figures and Bard made a point of saying how important it was for team cohesion and consistency.

Then we had a shocking run of injuries that hasn't really ended.
 

ferball

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Melb is in a great spot but a lot of variables as there is for anyone trying to win two in a row.
I mentioned this on another thread but Melbourne have made the finals twice since 2006 including this year. They haven't finished the H&A in the top four until this year in that entire time. They finished 5th in 2018. That was it. That was before we drafted TT for some perspective.

Sure they have some great players but perhaps it simply comes down to their fitness levels and S&C team. Maybe a lack of injury prone players? Their forward line (in terms of KPFs) is average (a couple of good small/medium forwards tho) but their backline is elite and their midfield is too. So maybe all you need to be pushing for a flag is an elite backline and midfield and elite match fitness?

I dunno, I guess time will tell - we'll see how they go next year.
 

Sphynx

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I mentioned this on another thread but Melbourne have made the finals twice since 2006 including this year. They haven't finished the H&A in the top four until this year in that entire time. They finished 5th in 2018. That was it. That was before we drafted TT for some perspective.

Sure they have some great players but perhaps it simply comes down to their fitness levels and S&C team. Maybe a lack of injury prone players? Their forward line (in terms of KPFs) is average (a couple of good small/medium forwards tho) but their backline is elite and their midfield is too. So maybe all you need to be pushing for a flag is an elite backline and midfield and elite match fitness?

I dunno, I guess time will tell - we'll see how they go next year.
A great midfield will always make an average forward line look good.

Fritsch is a star and definitely one of the hardest matchups in the league.

Pickett and Spargo did absolutely nothing, Brown certainly isn't a top line KPF at the moment. McDonald the same.

Jackson is a McKernan like trump card that Goodwin can deploy there.



I'm fairly confident between Thomas, Stephenson, Horne-Francis, Zurhaar, Ford, Edwards, Comben, CCJ we have enough X-Factor there to blow the MCG apart during finals in a few years. I'd absolutely love an electric small forward, but we will have that much versatility through midfield/forward I think our forward line projects to be much better than Melbourne's currently.

Thomas and JHF is going to be arguably one of the best two punch forward/mid combo's in the league and then you have Stephenson for good measure.

Defense is a much bigger issue. Melbourne's blows ours out of the water currently. We are lacking an elite young intercept marking CHB. They are absolutely key in modern football.
 

Marstermind

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Melb is in a great spot but a lot of variables as there is for anyone trying to win two in a row.
They are the hunted now, and there is always the possibility of a hangover. Other teams improve sharply. Injuries can hit and at the wrong time. (The last side to win a flag with a side that had to patch gaps during the finals through injuries was.....Dogs 2016???? Maybe? Wallis broke his leg late, Jong meh, Smith meh, Murphy missed just about the whole year).

Having said that. Melbourne were fricken awesome in the Preliminary and Grand Finals. In the two biggest games of the year, that was something else.
 

Marstermind

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I'm fairly confident between Thomas, Stephenson, Horne-Francis, Zurhaar, Ford, Edwards, Comben, CCJ we have enough X-Factor there to blow the MCG apart during finals in a few years. I'd absolutely love an electric small forward, but we will have that much versatility through midfield/forward I think our forward line projects to be much better than Melbourne's currently.
Add LDU, Simpkin, Powell, Phillips, Larkey, McKay and Lazarro and hopefully there's your 23-27yo group of 2025. Keep that group together, and we fill in the holes strategically along the way

I hope you're right about Edwards, Ford, Comben and CCJ though - a total of 6 games between the for the club and Ford has 5 of those. You've gone early with adding them. (But not JHF - he could be anything!)
 
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Horace

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I'm pleased for Benny that his move to Melbourne has enabled him to be part of a flag winning side. And I think it is fair to say a fairly important, though not necessarily crucial) part of that side. Just as I would have been (even more) pleased if it had have been Higgo at the Cats.

What Benny did was provide a very tall presence for the opposition to worry about, contested well, brought the ball to ground, marked a few and kicked 3 goals. But I think they would have got it done without him, because it was their midfield that really won that game for them.

But I am not disappointed with the fact that we refused to yield to his request for a contract of the magnitude that he did this time last year. On his form during 2019 and in particular 2020, he simply had moved out of that region in terms of value.

This time last year (well a month later in fact) there was a brutal cull and like many I was shocked at it. I would have preferred it to have been done in a more gentle manner but had the club capitulated to Benny's demands, surely much of what was started in 2020 with the culling, would have been undermined to some degree.

I think the club signalled last year that first and foremost they are going to build a midfield that will in the next 3 to 5 years be ready to mount a challenge. The fact that we have the first pick and the opportunity to select a close to ready made midfielder in Horne-Francis has me for one salivating at what might be not too far around the corner.
 

ferball

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A great midfield will always make an average forward line look good.

Fritsch is a star and definitely one of the hardest matchups in the league.

Pickett and Spargo did absolutely nothing, Brown certainly isn't a top line KPF at the moment. McDonald the same.

Jackson is a McKernan like trump card that Goodwin can deploy there.



I'm fairly confident between Thomas, Stephenson, Horne-Francis, Zurhaar, Ford, Edwards, Comben, CCJ we have enough X-Factor there to blow the MCG apart during finals in a few years. I'd absolutely love an electric small forward, but we will have that much versatility through midfield/forward I think our forward line projects to be much better than Melbourne's currently.

Thomas and JHF is going to be arguably one of the best two punch forward/mid combo's in the league and then you have Stephenson for good measure.

Defense is a much bigger issue. Melbourne's blows ours out of the water currently. We are lacking an elite young intercept marking CHB. They are absolutely key in modern football.
I watched that Leek Aleer's highlights and he regularly jumped over huge groups of players to mark. Guys who can run and jump. Like Maj. Ben McKay can do it too, believe it or not. If you watch those things Ligma posts from that mob Lazarro is training with you'll see both McKays have some real speed for big blokes. Ben McKay can jump too. But he is great one on one so lets not mess with that.

I like the idea of players who are fast even if they take a bit to wind up but who can take off four or five metres from the ball drop and still be holding their height when they get there.
 

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