2021 JUB JUB memorial Supercars thread

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Kwality

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Hybrid works just fine ror
They went half-cocked into things really.

But you're right, the reality is it's always likely to be Ford and Chev..... Seems like people here can't handle anything else.

That is the opening for TCR, but its got a long way to go to keep the manufacturers involved.
 

Bunk Moreland

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Yep. You have to wonder what the future is for Supercars. Their next move is to a car that isn't/won't be sold in Australia, and one which is about to stop being sold here. That's not a recipe for category longevity...

The future is obviously electric, or at the very least hybrid. That's just not going to work at Bathurst though, at least not in the short term. High performance electric cars just don't have the range to race for 1000km. They could (maybe) get away with it for the sprint races, which make up 80% of the calendar - but the enduros represent a big problem. I guess they could replace fuel stops with battery swap stops.

There are already several electric car categories around the world. There's Formula E for open wheelers, and Extreme E for off-road racing enthusiasts. There are probably others that I'm not aware of. I'm not aware of any tin top road race series for electric powered vehicles... yet.

Then there's the big question - will the fans still follow the category if it goes electric? It's just not the same without the throaty roar of a big V8 engine.

I would be going with an expansion of Touring Car Masters to cater for that. Run it alongside if need be. But there’s no current or future product for it, and hence no future fans.

The future has to be about the cars on our roads. That’s what Touring Cars has always had. I think ultimately a move back to modified production cars is the path to go down. So full electric can’t do an enduro race? Then that’s their problem. There’s still plenty of ICE / hybrid performance cars out there and there will be for the next decade. They need manufacturers like Subaru, Kia, BMW, Merc, Toyota, Nissan… this is what the current and next generation of Aussies will drive. If Ford wanna run Mustangs in it, great.
 

Vader

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I would be going with an expansion of Touring Car Masters to cater for that. Run it alongside if need be. But there’s no current or future product for it, and hence no future fans.

The future has to be about the cars on our roads. That’s what Touring Cars has always had. I think ultimately a move back to modified production cars is the path to go down. So full electric can’t do an enduro race? Then that’s their problem. There’s still plenty of ICE / hybrid performance cars out there and there will be for the next decade. They need manufacturers like Subaru, Kia, BMW, Merc, Toyota, Nissan… this is what the current and next generation of Aussies will drive. If Ford wanna run Mustangs in it, great.
Yeah... but none of them run V8s any more, and all of them are talking about being fully electric by 2035 at the very latest (many are aiming for 2030).

By 2030 a sizeable proportion of the cars on our roads will be electric, and you won't be able to buy a non-hybrid ICE powered vehicle. You're quite correct that they need to return to a formula involving cars on Australian roads, but what will that look like in 2030?

Whatever the next generation of Supercars holds, it won't be V8s. It may well be that the Gen3 cars are the last dying breath of the Australian Supercars series. This is an existential problem for the Supercars organisation. If they don't find a path forward, which brings the crowds along with them, then they'll be going the way of Kodak and the Dodo.
 

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Vader

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Hybrid works just fine ror
They went half-cocked into things really.

But you're right, the reality is it's always likely to be Ford and Chev..... Seems like people here can't handle anything else.
It wasn't that they went off half-cocked, it's just that they couldn't compete with the years of development which Holden & Ford had been pouring into their cars over the preceding decades. The same could be said for Nissan & Mercedes (badged as Erebus). Without those years of experience, they were condemned to (mostly) running in the back 1/3 of the pack.

I think Gen3 will be Ford vs Chev - but what comes after Gen3? We'll probably have Gen3 cars until around 2030, by which time most (if not all) of Australia's new car sales will be electric, or (maybe) hybrid-ICE. All of the major manufacturers have announced plans to cease building ICEs by 2035, if not earlier.
 

hey shorty

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Nissan and Mercedes weren't works teams though, and they were destined to fail. Plus the V8 Nissan doesn't exist.

Volvo did go half cocked, they were just lucky they had McLaughlin at their disposal. They'd largely finished their motorsport exploits by the time they got here.
 

Bunk Moreland

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Yeah... but none of them run V8s any more, and all of them are talking about being fully electric by 2035 at the very latest (many are aiming for 2030).

By 2030 a sizeable proportion of the cars on our roads will be electric, and you won't be able to buy a non-hybrid ICE powered vehicle. You're quite correct that they need to return to a formula involving cars on Australian roads, but what will that look like in 2030?

Whatever the next generation of Supercars holds, it won't be V8s. It may well be that the Gen3 cars are the last dying breath of the Australian Supercars series. This is an existential problem for the Supercars organisation. If they don't find a path forward, which brings the crowds along with them, then they'll be going the way of Kodak and the Dodo.

Yeah the V8s are gone. BMW and Merc still run them in M5s, C63s and E63s so that’s an option. But won’t be for too long.

I don’t think that’s a huge issue. It’s just reality. Supercars rebranded from V8 Supercars for a reason. They’ve gotta move with the times in Touring Cars. I think it’ll be petrol for a few years yet, then probably hybrid then electric. That’s ok.

There’ll be no V8 fans around in 20 years. If you need to run a really good Touring Car Masters series (for any Aussie Falcons and Commodores) in the meantime to keep em happy, then so be it.
 

ShooterMcGavin8

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They'll have a few more test drives next year, but 2023 is when they hit the track in anger. It was supposed to be 2022, but it was delayed for 12 months due to COVID.

oh really, thought they were happening next season. So Old Stangs and Commodores again ?
 

Vader

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oh really, thought they were happening next season. So Old Stangs and Commodores again ?
Yep. It was originally planned for 2022, but COVID really cut into the development & testing time available, so they had to delay it until 2023.
 

deanc

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Yep. It was originally planned for 2022, but COVID really cut into the development & testing time available, so they had to delay it until 2023.

The ZB Commodore's SKD are now imported from Opel/Germany I believe - or did I dream that..?
 

hey shorty

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Yep. It was originally planned for 2022, but COVID really cut into the development & testing time available, so they had to delay it until 2023.
Also, Ford asked for the delay as the next gen Mustang is out next year. Pointless building a new car then having to develop the next one straight away.
 

Bunk Moreland

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Also, Ford asked for the delay as the next gen Mustang is out next year. Pointless building a new car then having to develop the next one straight away.

What, are they pretending the next stang will be anything different to the current one?

They’re only selling them to the same 50yo men, they’re not allowed to change the body or the engine.
 

hey shorty

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What, are they pretending the next stang will be anything different to the current one?

They’re only selling them to the same 50yo men, they’re not allowed to change the body or the engine.
Who knows, but they are the world's best selling sports car.

I know plenty of people who aren't 50yo men who have them.
 

Kwality

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Yeah the V8s are gone. BMW and Merc still run them in M5s, C63s and E63s so that’s an option. But won’t be for too long.

I don’t think that’s a huge issue. It’s just reality. Supercars rebranded from V8 Supercars for a reason. They’ve gotta move with the times in Touring Cars. I think it’ll be petrol for a few years yet, then probably hybrid then electric. That’s ok.

There’ll be no V8 fans around in 20 years. If you need to run a really good Touring Car Masters series (for any Aussie Falcons and Commodores) in the meantime to keep em happy, then so be it.

Not TCM, they will try & get as much out of the current cars as possible more like Group N than TCM. Think Super 2/3.

The new 2022 Carrera Cup model (992) is the last of internal combustion motor, electric after that.
 

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Bunk Moreland

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Not TCM, they will try & get as much out of the current cars as possible more like Group N than TCM. Think Super 2/3.

The new 2022 Carrera Cup model (992) is the last of internal combustion motor, electric after that.

That'd be good, something that allows the legacy Supercars to run.

On the next iteration of Touring Cars in Aust... who knows.

TCM has international relevance, but I don't like that it's restricted to FWD and 2L engines.

The British Touring Cars are a bit broader, they allow RWD and AWD cars.

I'd like to see a formula that allows the entry of many more performance cars on the market today. Retain a link to the road cars but obviously roll cage, safety, brakes, suspension etc have to change.

I'm thinking cars like Audi RS, BMW M, Mustangs, Hyundai N, Stingers, AMGs, the new 400Z, WRXs and Volkswagens.

I don't know how exactly you make it work, maybe weight penalties on performance
 

Kwality

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That'd be good, something that allows the legacy Supercars to run.

On the next iteration of Touring Cars in Aust... who knows.

TCM has international relevance, but I don't like that it's restricted to FWD and 2L engines.

The British Touring Cars are a bit broader, they allow RWD and AWD cars.

I'd like to see a formula that allows the entry of many more performance cars on the market today. Retain a link to the road cars but obviously roll cage, safety, brakes, suspension etc have to change.

I'm thinking cars like Audi RS, BMW M, Mustangs, Hyundai N, Stingers, AMGs, the new 400Z, WRXs and Volkswagens.

I don't know how exactly you make it work, maybe weight penalties on performance

Do you want manufacturers involved ?
 

Bunk Moreland

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Do you want manufacturers involved ?

Sure, if they want to run a team, great. But if you're using production cars as a base I don't think it's critical. The value is in having cars that people identify with. Supercars was built on the back of Holden v Ford and that's because people identified with them. While we won't have that sort of two-brand tribalism again, the concept is the same.
 

Kwality

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Sure, if they want to run a team, great. But if you're using production cars as a base I don't think it's critical. The value is in having cars that people identify with. Supercars was built on the back of Holden v Ford and that's because people identified with them. While we won't have that sort of two-brand tribalism again, the concept is the same.

They will only complete if there is a commercial basis for doing so. Having visiting international drivers is a bonus.
 

Bunk Moreland

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They will only complete if there is a commercial basis for doing so. Having visiting international drivers is a bonus.

yep, which means these days they probably won't. The Australian performance car market / 'halo' effect from motorsport isn't that large any more when all anybody wants to drive are SUVs and shitbox Thai dual-cabs. Whether that changes in the future, who knows.
 

Nuggs Bunny

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I think the future for Supercars is doubling down on the control chassis & silhouette formula and aiming to detach completely from the new car market in Australia within the decade. I would be surprised if in 2030 that ICE performance coupes like the Mustang are still being offered for sale in Australia and would be equally shocked if battery vehicles could manage 6 hour enduro faces like Bathurst, so series already has a deadline to abandon anything more than superficial resemblance to cars that can actually be bought and road registered.

The strength of Supercars is that the racing is fast, exciting and close hence the enduring fan-following despite nobody really giving a sh*t about Holden vs. Ford for at least the last 10 years. The series has also been fairly cost-effective for a touring car championship and if the goals of Gen3 are achieved, the turn-key cost of the cars will be less than half of what the cheapest GT3 cars available can be had for. Add them together and you have a recipe for an enduring series if you structure it just right. Gen3 is a really good opportunity for Supercars to change how they pitch their brand.
 

Bunk Moreland

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I think the future for Supercars is doubling down on the control chassis & silhouette formula and aiming to detach completely from the new car market in Australia within the decade. I would be surprised if in 2030 that ICE performance coupes like the Mustang are still being offered for sale in Australia and would be equally shocked if battery vehicles could manage 6 hour enduro faces like Bathurst, so series already has a deadline to abandon anything more than superficial resemblance to cars that can actually be bought and road registered.

The strength of Supercars is that the racing is fast, exciting and close hence the enduring fan-following despite nobody really giving a sh*t about Holden vs. Ford for at least the last 10 years. The series has also been fairly cost-effective for a touring car championship and if the goals of Gen3 are achieved, the turn-key cost of the cars will be less than half of what the cheapest GT3 cars available can be had for. Add them together and you have a recipe for an enduring series if you structure it just right. Gen3 is a really good opportunity for Supercars to change how they pitch their brand.

Interesting take and interesting way to think about it.

The only thing I'd say is regarding endurance rounds, we are always surprised by how quickly technology moves. Hybrids have good range. Battery technology is really on the move, who knows what self-charging will bring. I certainly wouldn't rule out 1000km range under heavy load in a decade's time.
 

Vader

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Interesting take and interesting way to think about it.

The only thing I'd say is regarding endurance rounds, we are always surprised by how quickly technology moves. Hybrids have good range. Battery technology is really on the move, who knows what self-charging will bring. I certainly wouldn't rule out 1000km range under heavy load in a decade's time.
I'm thinking they'll be looking at options such as replacing the battery, where they now refuel.
 

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