List Mgmt. 2021 List Management: Draft, Trade, Free Agency and Academy

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theGav56

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 11, 2004
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Was Sumich just talking crap when he said Tucker wants back to the Cats? with S Darcy is in our sights also...

I can see maybe Narkle being offered in a deal back, for either, potentially with picks.

What do you think Tucker and S Darcy's value is realistically at the trade table? Darcy Tucker OOC at end of year?

S Darcy is contracted to 2022, so I guess his trade value could be optimal by season's end.

Tbh, not sure S Darcy is the type of ruck we go for, but he's having a good year. I quite rate him.
Narkle has never impressed me. Clarke or Neale would be my targets from your list if we were forced into a trade.
 

Joao

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May 2, 2017
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Narkle has never impressed me. Clarke or Neale would be my targets from your list if we were forced into a trade.
Yeah he is terrible. His highlights are nice though.

He is either a forward who doesn't kick goals or a midfielder that doesn't get much ball.
 

G Mus

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 30, 2015
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Schache vs Treacy is the prime example how to draft.

Forget the heights and skills, first question should be, are they competitive ?

Jack Watts vs Nick Nat.

Treacy is a competitive beast and Schache is a loopy leaf.
I agree but it’s easy to see why Schache went high, he’s a good size and an amazing set shot both accuracy and distance, would have been seen as a good canvas to develop the rest of his game
 

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blue shark

Premiership Player
Aug 15, 2009
3,596
2,620
perth
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Yeah and Waterman is terrible at it. Even the WC board agree. Us losing the midfield has nothing to do with how versatile our KPP players are, it is down to how disciplined the midfield is.

Our midfield got smashed in the 3rd and was undisciplined defensively in every quarter. Whether or not Allen can play forward or back literally has nothing to do with the result, because wherever he might have played, we still would have lost.

Simmo only moves them around because half of his defenders are injured and Allen is versatile.

Imagine being an opposition fan watching their team playing against us when Fyfe plays well and then me bemoaning the fact that their midfielders aren't all elite contested marks. It makes no sense.
Brander?
 

Docker82

Premiership Player
Jun 21, 2013
4,404
5,565
Perth
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Fremantle
Was Sumich just talking crap when he said Tucker wants back to the Cats? with S Darcy is in our sights also...

I can see maybe Narkle being offered in a deal back, for either, potentially with picks.

What do you think Tucker and S Darcy's value is realistically at the trade table? Darcy Tucker OOC at end of year?

S Darcy is contracted to 2022, so I guess his trade value could be optimal by season's end.

Tbh, not sure S Darcy is the type of ruck we go for, but he's having a good year. I quite rate him.
Almost no chance Darcy leaves.

Tucker would probably be a lower priority for us to re-sign, as would anyone on our list until we know what’s the go with Cerra.

Almost no talk of Darcy or Tucker leaving Freo before or since and most Freo think Sumich is both delusional and bitter at Freo because he thought it was his right to be senior coach here, despite not being in the AFL system for years. Also tries to push WA talent at any opportunity, even if it doesn’t make any sense to. Conveniently added that we should’ve drafted WA talent instead after saying we’d have a mass exodus.

Anyway you’re talking two best 22 players at Freo. There was talk Narkle might be available as a delisted free agent last year and he’s done nothing so far that suggests that won’t be the case this year. Has no trade value.
 

Wilksyy

Tab on a 🦀
Aug 26, 2018
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We need a development KPD for when Hammer/AP retire/leg falls off. It doesn't need to be this year, but it will have to be in the next few. Good news is that KPDs of quality can be found outside the first round.
I say double down on KPF’s then. KPD’s are all secretly aspiring KPF’s that eventually realise they don’t have the footy nous to make it as a forward.
 

Johnny Dalmas

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Oct 16, 2015
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...

I think having another rebuild or not depends on your ability to draft well when up and about.
Yes, if you have a bad list now it is down to what you did 3 or so years back, not the recent post-season. It's one of the reasons list management is difficult to do -- decisions take a long time to assess and often feedback is delivered to someone else. So it's hard for list managers to learn what worked and what didn't
 

Joao

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May 2, 2017
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Yes, if you have a bad list now it is down to what you did 3 or so years back, not the recent post-season. It's one of the reasons list management is difficult to do -- decisions take a long time to assess and often feedback is delivered to someone else. So it's list managers to learn what worked and what didn't
Lets hope that the current crew have learnt and we can avoid the Bennell, Cam, Hogan and Lobb lessens to never repeat them. Ideally we'd tone back the Conca, Colyer Acres types as well but at least they didn't give up much for them.
 

Johnny Dalmas

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Oct 16, 2015
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It's not a personnel thing, we have key members of our midfield with under 30 games experience. Serong is so so young.
I agree it's not personnel. But out of our core midfield group surely Caleb is the only one who is under 30 games. I think it is system. Which means it is fixable in the now. But they want to hurry up about it because when our midfield is beaten we lose games.
 

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arsesmart

Club Legend
Sep 25, 2018
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Rebuild isn't an actual thing. There's no absolute fixed timeframe or method. Basically, we rebuilt in 2-3 drafts between 2007-09. It's a how long is a piece of string kind of thing and there are so many variables that it really is counterproductive to fix your thinking on any one way.

I do think there's a lot to be said for bringing a team up via the draft and allowing that core to build chemistry in an alchemical magic kind of way. But bringing in players who have had 4 or so years in the AFL can be a way that really works too (you just need to ensure your core is the driver and priority). The Hawks have supplemented their run to a premiership that way, as have Richmond and the Bulldogs.
 

arsesmart

Club Legend
Sep 25, 2018
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I agree it's not personnel. But out of our core midfield group surely Caleb is the only one who is under 30 games. I think it is system. Which means it is fixable in the now. But they want to hurry up about it because when our midfield is beaten we lose games.
System is not only design, it's also execution. Younger players (ie. <24 yo & <50-60 gms) will be up and down with that. This year's going to be a bit topsy turvy here and there for us (and for most teams - eg just last week the WC smacked by 100 pts by the team that just lost to Swans). Everyone's trying to work their way through the impact of the new rules with less coaching staff/time.
 

ignoramus

Senior List
Aug 17, 2020
240
561
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Fremantle
I agree it's not personnel. But out of our core midfield group surely Caleb is the only one who is under 30 games. I think it is system. Which means it is fixable in the now. But they want to hurry up about it because when our midfield is beaten we lose games.
Thing is, systems by definition are made of predefined structures and operate via regular functions to interface with external conditions and process inputs. The system also predefines and regularises these external conditions and inputs in the form of expectations. When the conditions and the inputs that the system meets don't match the expectations, the system performs badly. Systems need to be adaptable and responsive to unfavourable conditions/inputs. If only one part of it isn't working the way you expect, the whole thing can fall down. Yet adaptation and responsiveness often requires the system re-organise itself around very different structures and functions than those that define the system —even those that are antithetical to the system...

... which is a fancy way of saying that the midfield group this last game was not prepared for what they encountered, and not able to respond/adapt. By the same token, it's not as simple as deciding to adapt, to change structures, etc. What makes them structures, or effective structures, is the fact that they've been thoroughly prepared for, practiced and habituated.

It is probably also a way of saying that the game was lost in part due to less than adequate coaching, though I appreciate why coaches say they're going to back the system and not think too much about the opposition, because it's no simple matter to embed new systems on a week by week basis.
 

Bicco

Premiership Player
Jun 23, 2013
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Rebuild isn't an actual thing. There's no absolute fixed timeframe or method. Basically, we rebuilt in 2-3 drafts between 2007-09. It's a how long is a piece of string kind of thing and there are so many variables that it really is counterproductive to fix your thinking on any one way.

I do think there's a lot to be said for bringing a team up via the draft and allowing that core to build chemistry in an alchemical magic kind of way. But bringing in players who have had 4 or so years in the AFL can be a way that really works too (you just need to ensure your core is the driver and priority). The Hawks have supplemented their run to a premiership that way, as have Richmond and the Bulldogs.
I’d also say it’s not important for a club to try players and expose them for a 3 game run at least once a season. Barring injury or completely woeful form. Young players need to know what they’re up against in the big time. Otherwise the evidence suggests a club will fall off of a cliff. Finals is a different matter, play your best. Treacy has had a run, gone back to Peel and played well. He’ll come back a better player. Sturt needs a run at it. I wouldn’t be fussed if Henry didn’t play 1st again all year unless he knocks the door down for selection. He knows he’s not up to it yet. Valente definitely needs to be thrown in for a few games this year and next. Give him a taste, let him go back to Peel, dominate and then earn his way back in. If players are sore, rest them. Empower the kids to know they’re good enough to compete at the top level, or at least find out for certain they’re not.
 

arsesmart

Club Legend
Sep 25, 2018
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I’d also say it’s not important for a club to try players and expose them for a 3 game run at least once a season. Barring injury or completely woeful form. Young players need to know what they’re up against in the big time. Otherwise the evidence suggests a club will fall off of a cliff. Finals is a different matter, play your best. Treacy has had a run, gone back to Peel and played well. He’ll come back a better player. Sturt needs a run at it. I wouldn’t be fussed if Henry didn’t play 1st again all year unless he knocks the door down for selection. He knows he’s not up to it yet. Valente definitely needs to be thrown in for a few games this year and next. Give him a taste, let him go back to Peel, dominate and then earn his way back in. If players are sore, rest them. Empower the kids to know they’re good enough to compete at the top level, or at least find out for certain they’re not.
Yep. I'd certainly lean towards keeping an open mind about rewarding good form in the WAFL too (more so the greater the unique talents) and not branding anyone too severely if they've struggled for their stint in the AFL if they're young or had an impacted preparation.
 

apuchar

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Sep 21, 2010
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Versatility is great, but I am pretty sure if you asked Simmo he'd say he'd like to be able to put Allen forward and leave him there.

I don't think a comparison to Meek or Treacy is really needed. Totally different players.

Also Brander plays everywhere else because the other players are all better than him.


Depends on how long your core talent lasts before injury or age catch up with them.

Say we contend in 2024, then Andy etc should all get 5-7 years.

I think having another rebuild or not depends on your ability to draft well when up and about.
Another factor might be how well the current group can adapt to the new style of play. Sydney tend to just pick the next coach to pick up where the last coach left off, with some gradual tweaks. We have changed our playing style quite radically (which is great longterm) but may stretch things out.
 

Dayts

Rookie
Jul 31, 2020
21
17
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Fremantle
Lets hope that the current crew have learnt and we can avoid the Bennell, Cam, Hogan and Lobb lessens to never repeat them. Ideally we'd tone back the Conca, Colyer Acres types as well but at least they didn't give up much for them.
[/QUOTE


So no going after Nathan Freeman to add some dash ?
 

Docker82

Premiership Player
Jun 21, 2013
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Lets hope that the current crew have learnt and we can avoid the Bennell, Cam, Hogan and Lobb lessens to never repeat them. Ideally we'd tone back the Conca, Colyer Acres types as well but at least they didn't give up much for them.
I really don't get putting Lobb in this basket.

If he was the player people wanted him to be we would've needed to trade as much as we did for Hogan - we just didn't.

Gets a lot of negativity for the contract but throwing him in with McCarthy, Hogan and Bennell is just not correct tbh.
 

Joao

Brownlow Medallist
May 2, 2017
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I really don't get putting Lobb in this basket.

If he was the player people wanted him to be we would've needed to trade as much as we did for Hogan - we just didn't.

Gets a lot of negativity for the contract but throwing him in with McCarthy, Hogan and Bennell is just not correct tbh.
Lobb is becoming super crap but he's not a flog
Probably fair.

I was more referring to trading for guys who just don't output at the rate of their trade and salary cost. Obviously Lobb is streets ahead of the others.
 

theGav56

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 11, 2004
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It is probably also a way of saying that the game was lost in part due to less than adequate coaching, though I appreciate why coaches say they're going to back the system and not think too much about the opposition, because it's no simple matter to embed new systems on a week by week basis.
Fortunately the lads were locked in with the coaches all of last season. Apparently this fast tracked the aforementioned embedding.
 

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