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Heres Waite

Club Legend
Aug 16, 2009
2,424
8,002
Adelaide
AFL Club
Carlton
I guess you’re right...Malthouse, Bolton and Teague....there’s nothing left for Lyon to destroy. Hence he’d be no good for us


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Britain, Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse, Bolton, and now your suggesting getting rid of Teague too? Maybe the changing the coach every few years cycle is the real problem?
 

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katmanblue

Premium Platinum
Nov 27, 2016
10,325
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That’s fair enough man but we’re arguing semantics. My point is that deal of $3.2 mil for 5 years would include the incentives especially for a big forward coming off a career year and it’s not that risky of a deal if you take that into consideration. He’s still young and if he’s half the player we thought he would be then it’s still a very good deal.
That would include things like winning the Coleman.
 

DangerousD

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 16, 2015
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That’s fair enough man but we’re arguing semantics. My point is that deal of $3.2 mil for 5 years would include the incentives especially for a big forward coming off a career year and it’s not that risky of a deal if you take that into consideration. He’s still young and if he’s half the player we thought he would be then it’s still a very good deal.
Charlie's deal was $3.2M over 4 years, not 5, it’s insanity, to offer that money to a player who had only played 37 games of football.
Big Harry will be sitting there thinking, anything less than $800,000 isn’t acceptable, if it’s good enough for Charlie after doing not much, then it’s good enough for me, with my form.

It was mentioned here last week that the club was looking to renegotiate his deal.
 

Heres Waite

Club Legend
Aug 16, 2009
2,424
8,002
Adelaide
AFL Club
Carlton
If he can pass ASADA test :thumbsupv1:



Good point :thumbsupv1:
One more wont hurt :tongueoutv1:

Seriously want Teague to be the man, but he needs to change..
  • Match Committee selection
  • Game plan, defence and midfield connection
  • Talking to the media and members
He was one of the most, courageous, fierce & tenacious players when he played.. Where is it in his coaching?
I see him being too stubborn in his own beliefs, can't see him changing, he will fall on his own sword...
How about instead of blaming the coach and finding a new one every few years we acknowledge that we are in this position as a club because of our own mismanagement. How about supporting the coach with professional and personal development. Teague is a young coach who is not going to get it right first up, but we should be putting everything into this guy to develop him to become the coach he can be. He As you say he has the characteristics as a human such as grit and tenacity that should be great traits as a coach. What are we doing as a club to allow him to work to his strengths. What is his limitations as a coach and what are we doing as a club to support him through these weaknesses. Does he need game day tactic help, who can we get to help him with this?

Go the other way, we sack the coach, we put in Ross Lyon. We have done this before (Pagan, Malthouse). 3 years down the track we are in the same boat again (like Pagan and Malthouse) we sack the dinosaur and rinse and repeat never going anywhere.
 

btdg

Premiership Player
Oct 7, 2005
4,310
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Britain, Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse, Bolton, and now your suggesting getting rid of Teague too? Maybe the changing the coach every few years cycle is the real problem?
I know it is history now, but from 1969-1982 we had 9 different coaches (including two caretakers) in a 13 year span - and won 5 premierships in that time (with 4 different coaches). Even after that:
- Parkin won back-to-back flags in 81-82 and was swapped out after 1985
- Walls made grand finals in his first two years, finished 3rd in 1988, then got sacked mid-1989

To be honest, I think we started to lose the plot around about the time we stopped having ridiculously high expectations for success. Parkin survived a horrific drop in form in '97 and '98 that wouldn't have been tolerated a decade earlier, and we also stopped pensioning off old blokes (we started paying them in brown paper bags instead). Dennis Pagan got a pretty good run (4 and a half years despite not really going anywhere). Ratten got 5 years and we were harsh to sack him; but in hindsight the biggest issue was giving Malthouse too much time. He really added nothing in 2013 and we could have moved on and avoided half the fall imo.

OBviously there is a great deal more to the situation, but sticking with mediocrity has become a habit that we're suddenly very comfortable with. I'm in favour of sacking Teague if we lose to Essendon - at least give someone else a shot at salvaging the year...
 

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The Bighouse

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 28, 2009
5,663
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Perth
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Carlton
I feel like the club is gearing up for him to take over at the end of the year. He’s been so brash about our football club in the media like someone is giving him info on what’s going on at the club and with Brad Lloyd at the helm, things seem fishy. Just a theory. Matthew Lloyd and Ross on FC just seemed way too confident to me. A lot of this feels 2012 to me and I am suffering from PTSD after that fallout.
Ross is defending his mate SOS's legacy and possibly positioning himself for the top gig. Charlatan and not the coach I want
He stated that he had some skin in the game with the recruitment (SOS).

Just doing his media commitment$ but handing over the kudos to his mate, SOS, inside word on his recruits vs lack of development.

Don’t think coaching is on the cards, nor that B.Lloyd would be feeding info as he was in the troops against SOS but I’m sure Matthew gets some tidbits from the bro.
 

THE_GUN

R.I.P Shane Tuck 21
Dec 28, 2007
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Do you know how much the match payments are? Or do they vary from player to player? If match payments are the same across the board, it’s easy to include them in the cap as the amount paid is the same each yearregardless.

Im only disagreeing with the size of the incentive payments here (speculating of course) that you can’t have a 37% upwards or downwards swing on certain players contracts, when the salary cap minimum spend is 97% and you can only go over by a small amount.
Usually match payments are for younger players that provide incentives in their first 2-3 years

With a player like Saad / Williams etc i would doubt there would be extra payments for games played as that is usually all inclusive
they would only have extra bonuses for things lie B & F finishes or Brownlow type awards
 

TENACIOUS

All Australian
Aug 16, 2008
840
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Beat this plausible Scenario

Really hopeful, we are having a good look at KPP this year.
Shrewd trading could lead us to the below...

Not sure about the draft so have looked at OOC players 2021-2022
Midfield upgrades next year or if cheap

Available Players

KPF/RUCK

  • Weideman (OOC)/ Riccardi (OOC)/ Brander (OOC)
  • McLean (OOC) - Swans
  • Marshall (OOC 2022) - Port Forward 38 games for 39 goals
  • Coleman-Jones (OOC) - Forward/Ruck, first game this weekend
  • Frampton (OOC 2022) - Adelaide Forward/Ruck
  • Schache (OOC 2022)- Only as last resort if there are no suitable KPP left
KPD
  • Ben McKay (OOC)
  • Sicily (OOC 2022) - Maybe cheap because coming off a knee, offers the mongrel we need and leadership
  • Lukosius (OOC 2022) - Worth a look elite by foot
RUCK
  • Flynn (OOC) - GWS
  • Lynch (OOC) - Collingwood
  • Darcy (OOC 2022) - Would prefer the others first

MIDFIELDER & FORWARD UPGRADES
  • Fogarty (OOC) - Adelaide. Only if Russell believes he can get him fit, big body, De Goey style Mid/ Forward, elite kick
  • Lipinski (OOC) - Bulldogs. Elite by foot Forward/ Mid (Upgrade)
  • Richards (OOC) - Bulldogs. Speedy, elite by foot Forward/ Mid (Upgrade)
  • Constable (OOC) - Geelong
  • West (OOC 2022) - Bulldogs inside mid F&S, could be an absolute steal
  • Cameron (OOC 2022) - Played 12 games for 13 goals
  • Sholl (OOC 2022) - Probably off limits with Adelaide now
TRADE IN
Wishful thinking. Yes, but fair trading
  • Weideman - 2021 2nd
  • McKay - 2021 First
  • Flynn - 2022 Third
  • Sicily - 2022 2nd
  • Richards & West - 2022 first
  • Cameron - 2021 3rd
DRAFT
3 X Draft Picks (4th-5th & 6th round) unless we can trade players

TRADE OUT
Sure AFL would give us approval to trade our 1st Rounder seeing we have used so many over past 6 years
2021 - First, Second and Third
2022 - First, Second and Third

Trade Bait
Dow, O'Brien, Cuningham, Ramsey, Philp, Setterfield, SPS, Kennedy, Marchbank, Williamson, McGovern, Plowman, Gibbons, Newman or Newnes

2022 Best 22
This team would be a young absolutely scary team, for some time

FBDocherty (VC) (28)McKay (24)Sicily (27)
HBWilliams (27)Weitering (24)Saad (27)
CMartin (27)West (21)Richards (22)
HFFogarty (22)Mckay (24)Fisher (21)
FFCameron (21)Weideman (24)C. Curnow (25)
FolDe Koning (22)Cripps (C) (27)Walsh (21)
BenchPittonet (2nd Ruck) (25)Stocker (7th Defender) (21)Carroll (Midfielder) (20)Kemp (Forward/Midfielder) (20)
Average Age23.63

VFL/ Ready To Go Depth

FBMarchbank (25)Jones (31)Plowman (27)
HBNewman (29)Parks (20)Williamson (23)
CCuningham (24)Dow (22)O'Brien (22)
HFSPS (24)McGovern (27)Newnes (29)
FFGibbons (26)Silvagni (24)Owies (24)
FolFlynn (24)Setterfield (22)Ramsey (20)
BenchPhilp (21)Curnow (32)Cottrell (22)
Average Age24.7

Delist/ Retire
Betts (Give him a Staff job) (Ret), Murphy (Ret), Casboult (Ret), Kennedy (Del), McDonald (Del)

Needed to Trade OR Delist at least 7 of following (Can Pick them up again with our 3 rookie spots)
Trade

Dow, O'Brien, Cuningham, Ramsey, Philp, Setterfield, SPS, Marchbank, Williamson, McGovern, Plowman, Gibbons, Newman, Philp, Curnow
OOC
Newnes, Cottrell, Gibbons, Honey, Newman, O'Brien

CONCLUSION
Would give us
  • 7 traded in players
  • 3 Draft spots (as per rules)
  • 3 Rookie/ DFA/ Mid Season Draft list spots
1st youngest list best 22
6th youngest list over all as is (once the 7 players are gone this will drop again)
 
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BRADLESTICKS

Senior List
May 12, 2015
187
580
AFL Club
Carlton
Zac Williams injured again, this has the potential to go down as the worst contract ever handed out to a Carlton player, 750/800 thousand for 6 years to an injury prone overweight unaccountable average half back who will never have the fitness to play permanently midfield.

Then on top of this over paying by giving up a top 10 pick for Saad even though he is a quality player that price is ridiculous compared to what other half backs have been traded for in the past.

It reeked of desperation on behalf of Liddle and the new list management team at the time to be seen as doing something after giving sos the flick and is looking worse and worse with every game that’s played.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 20, 2006
6,448
7,776
AFL Club
Carlton
Zac Williams injured again, this has the potential to go down as the worst contract ever handed out to a Carlton player, 750/800 thousand for 6 years to an injury prone overweight unaccountable average half back who will never have the fitness to play permanently midfield.

Then on top of this over paying by giving up a top 10 pick for Saad even though he is a quality player that price is ridiculous compared to what other half backs have been traded for in the past.

It reeked of desperation on behalf of Liddle and the new list management team at the time to be seen as doing something after giving sos the flick and is looking worse and worse with every game that’s played.
I don’t think it was desperate. We were going to give the McKay pick up for Tomlinson and give him a massive pay day, who knows what we were going to trade for Shiel to go along with a $1.1mil dollar 6 year contract and we offered Cogs was it $1.2mil over 7 years?
We were always going to spend up and it’s pretty bloody rare the absolute perfect recruit shows up. If one of the half dozen young mids we paid a lot of draft capital for come good then things will look a lot better.
 

BRADLESTICKS

Senior List
May 12, 2015
187
580
AFL Club
Carlton
I don’t think it was desperate. We were going to give the McKay pick up for Tomlinson and give him a massive pay day, who knows what we were going to trade for Shiel to go along with a $1.1mil dollar 6 year contract and we offered Cogs was it $1.2mil over 7 years?
We were always going to spend up and it’s pretty bloody rare the absolute perfect recruit shows up. If one of the half dozen young mids we paid a lot of draft capital for come good then things will look a lot better.
Williams especially at that price had way too many red flags for my liking
1.The money
2.We recruited him to play midfield where he has never proved he can play full time
3.Injury prone
4.Has played overweight his whole career huge question marks over his fitness
5.Only one top 5 finish in a best and fairest

At least with coniglio and Shiel they are genuine proven midfielders. Williams is going to go down as the most expensive half back flanker to play the game when I’m not sure he is in the top 20 currently playing.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 20, 2006
6,448
7,776
AFL Club
Carlton
Williams especially at that price had way too many red flags for my liking
1.The money
2.We recruited him to play midfield where he has never proved he can play full time
3.Injury prone
4.Has played overweight his whole career huge question marks over his fitness
5.Only one top 5 finish in a best and fairest

At least with coniglio and Shiel they are genuine proven midfielders. Williams is going to go down as the most expensive half back flanker to play the game when I’m not sure he is in the top 20 currently playing.
I didn’t mind it because he is actually versatile and with Walsh and Cripps being the one, two punch I thought he would be a great 4th and at worst 3rd mid. The problem is we need one of the kids to stand up and take that third mid role.
Him playing through the midfield was a major reason for GWS’s success in 2019.
I more made the point about those other two because had they actually agreed to come they would probably be looked at as the worse deals we had done.
 

BRADLESTICKS

Senior List
May 12, 2015
187
580
AFL Club
Carlton
I didn’t mind it because he is actually versatile and with Walsh and Cripps being the one, two punch I thought he would be a great 4th and at worst 3rd mid. The problem is we need one of the kids to stand up and take that third mid role.
Him playing through the midfield was a major reason for GWS’s success in 2019.
I more made the point about those other two because had they actually agreed to come they would probably be looked at as the worse deals we had done.
I would take Shiel or coniglio even at the extra price in a heartbeat, both are terrific runners they are the ultimate professionals, both can play full time midfield which we are seriously lacking, I agree we need at least one or two of our high draft picks to step up and help Cripps and Walsh but a lot of those picks such as Sps, Fisher, Cuningham, Setterfield, Dow and Stocker are all poor endurance runners which makes adding Williams to that mix even more strange.
 

Bokan

Team Captain
Dec 21, 2015
495
1,151
Melbourne
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Carlton
Williams have never really been a mid basically on the back of one final people got sucked in.
Always injured along with Saad the only club in history to pay 1.5 million for 2 half backs for the next 5 years. Well done Austin and Lloyd


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Think you might be overeacting a little bit there mate

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