List Mgmt. 2021 List Management

[Jeremias]

Come on now Jeremias, you're taking bits and pieces to suit your own narrative..

Not at all, at least not intentionally. I even broke the post up to address each point, and will do it again here for clarity.

1. It's estimated in the media we are paying or about to pay half our cap on 8 players.. This didn't include Weitering or Docherty's estimated wage
because it hasn't been discussed.. That leaves $7,000,000 for 30 other players, which is crazy. Yes some of the 8 may be front loaded which may alter figures but it is still obscure. We should have spread the load like a Richmond, Geelong or Hawthorne of old

A few things here.

1) 'Estimated in the media'. Not sure anything else needs to be said here, it has been proven time and time again that the media has little idea about contracts and they're guessing more often than not. They also do not ever take into account front and back loading of contracts - hence you get the nonsense headlines ie. Jack Martin is being paid in excess of $1m p/a at Carlton.

2) If we use your calculations, ie. $7,000,000 for 30 players, that's an average of $233,000 per annum for the remainder of the list. The average player salary last year was approx. $250,000 per annum. There's a discrepancy there but I reckon that can be covered by saying we're simply estimating. Certainly nothing "crazy" there, as you've put it.

3) Spread the load like Richmond who through their premiership years have had a handful of superstars no doubt taking up a similar chunk of the cap, supported by a whole lot of good ordinary role players? I am not sure that supports your argument as much as you may have initially thought.

2. Don't read Herald Sun or watch 360, find Robbo a disgusting fu** wit and Whaetley reminds me of the kid that couldn't catch the ball at school

And yet you seem more than happy to go with media estimates of salaries, see point one above.

3. We need an elite KPF that can ruck, hence the /

Do we?

Who is the elite forward at Richmond who can/has played in the ruck over the past few years?

Why can't TDK fill this role?

4. Huh? Jones is 31 next year and we have no KPD depth if one gets I(not going to happen)d

Sure we need greater defensive cover, as we do in a number of positions across the park.

Jones and Weitering though are clearly a good enough pairing to feature in a contending side. Even with Jones at 31.

5. If it allowed us to get any of our needs, elite KPF/that can Ruck, 2 x KPD and 2 X Elite midfielders.
Absolutely without a doubt, so far they have been overpriced failures for us and are likely to drive up the value of our actual performing players..

No. Sorry, there's more to be said here but it's just so far off the mark that I really can't be bothered.

 

[SOSforPM]

What are you on about having it ten ways?

Yes the media put mayo on their stories, but the $$ figures wouldn't be far off facts..

The exact 2021 cap is $13.165,950 (for 38 Senior players) +5% $658,297 (brining it to 105%)
Add Estimated: Saad - $650/ Williams - $800/ Cripps - $800/ Harry - $1m/ Walsh - $800/ Curnow - $700/ McGovern - $700/ Martin - $650
(All give or take but pretty close (Martin was front loaded not sure about others)
=$6,100,000

Leaves $7,824,247 for the remaining 30 senior players (Including Weitering, Betts, Docherty, Casboult, Murphy, Plowman, Curnow, Jones etc)

Richmond - Have one top earner Dusty. All others would be limited and paid less than Cotchin
Geelong - All players limited and paid less that Selwood
Hawks - All took less to stay together
Eagles - All take less to stay together

We aren't even a top 8 side, yet we have overpaid $$ (GWS & Gold Coast style) but for the wrong players..
Saad - Get's tagged goes to water, looks good at times but unreliable (same as at Essendon)
Williams - Good HBF that demands to be played in the middle, not even best 22 this year
Cripps / Harry / Walsh - Can live with
C.Curnow / Martin - Always bloody injured

We need to be selective with our trade targets like Richmond are.
Were in desperate need of an KPF/Ruck, 2 x KPD and 2 X Elite Midfielders

How do we get what players we need with limited money?

Anyone can say easy we'll just get rid of Betts, Casboult, Murphy.
Yes.. But people forget, these guys are best 22 players, so we will need to replace them plus our need of a KPF/Ruck (Levi), 2 x KPD and 2 X Midfielders

I’d be very surprised if C Curnow, McGovern and Martins contracts wouldn’t be majority paid for allready and Saad and Williamson would be over this and next year...we had to have a hell of a hole to fill to reach 95% the last couple of years.

 

[F_therest]

This is my main concern. There is not 1 and I mean not 1! Key position player applying his craft in the 2s. We have only 2 genuine ruckman on the list. One is a baby, the other a speculative pick at best.

The composition of our list is ridiculously unbalanced, hence we force a unfit and out of form Casboult to play because of a need to have some kind of 2nd key forward option and ruck relief. We are seriously 1 Jacob Weitering injury away from total collapse.

Way too early to properly assess but in Austin's first off-season he brought in Williams on a big contract, Saad on a reasonably large contact and Fogarty...also delisted a bunch of fringe KPDs in Macreadie, Goddard & BSOS.

Williams - I think we were all actually pretty happy when this was announced, though some of us did have reservations on the size & length of the contract. Right now it's not looking good, he doesn't seem a natural mid and not sure he has the tank...though it seems he's been carrying an injury. He's shown he CAN dominate a game in the middle. It probably came up too late but I would have liked Treloar who is a proven gun mid.

Saad - Good get, has been pretty solid so far and also appears to be playing a little injured in some games. I'm fine with the contract we gave him.

Fogarty - Good get, started the season well though has dropped off the last few weeks...but he's a young player and this is the first time he's played so many consecutive games...probably needs a rest but we have so many injured forwards.

Delisted KPDs - Realistically none of these guys were probably going to make it anyway and he did bring in Parks (not a KPD but decent in the air) and McDonald. If our key forwards stayed fit, we'd also have the option to swing Casboult to KPD as he's done well in the past. So I don't think it's a huge deal, but i'll be expecting us to recruit a KPD this off-season.

This isn't Austin's fault and potentially a little blame has to go to SOS that a lot of our recent high draft mids we've invested in don't actually appear to be good runners and it's causing us issues. I think it's pretty important most, if not all mids these days have decent speed, agility and endurance.

Guys like Dow/Stocker/Setterfield/Kennedy were all brought in and are all inside mids with questionable speed and running ability. We literally cannot play even 3 of these guys in the 1 team IMO, otherwise we'd be really slow and lack endurance...at least not all as midfielders.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

Concerned where we are at with our list management and payment structure, since SOS left..
On what we learn and on the face of it. Looks like it is getting/got out of control, we are recklessly spending in the pursuit of the 8, not a flag.

Reportedly (Bolded not signed yet, ** over paid for their output)
**Saad - $650-$750
**Williams - $800-$900
**Cripps - $800+
Harry - $800-$1m
Walsh - $800+
**Curnow - $700-$800
**McGovern - $700+
**Martin - $650-$700
Thats = $6,100,000 of a $13.1m cap on 8 players

+
Docherty - ?
Weitering - ?

That to me looks like we are up sh*t creek without a paddle. Half our cap is on 8 players and only two of them are worth it (Harry & Walsh)
Concerned that our premiership hope may be over before it even started.

To contend we are in desperate need of an elite KPF/Ruck, 2 x KPD and 2 X Elite midfielders

We may need to try get rid of Williams, Saad, McGovern and Cripps to afford what we need..
I do worry if we lose Cripps or McKay the club will take a massive hit members wise if we lose both they will burn the place down..

How do we get what we need in the apparent situation we are in?

Think you might be a distance off in what you think players would be on in year 2021. Dont listen to the media, trust me...

SOS always worked the books extremely well and front loaded the s**t out of contracts.

For instance, Jack Martin. Pretty sure the contract was for a little over 3 million for 5 years. Now Jack put a million on his head in his first year to ward off any other team making a play for him, but I believe he was paid more than the million reported. I think it was 1.3ish but when covid hit, he still made over a million last year (as reported he was in the million dollar man club for last year. So on averages across his final 4 years, he maybe on approx $425k

Charlie signed on i believe back in 2019 for a 4 year deal for the period of 2020 to 2023. Iirc, the contract was just shy of 3 million over that 4 year period. Again, SOS LOVED front loading contracts so I believe Charlie would have been on very close to a million in 2020. I very much doubt Charlie would be on much more than 600k in 2021 and if he is on a higher amount, it just means 2022 and 2023 his salary should be very manageable.

As for Mitch, I've got no idea but I think his contract expires at the end of 2022? Either way, plenty a itk poster has mentioned he isn't on the coin that was suggested back when he was traded to Carlton. If he is on more than 600k this year and next id be beyond surprised.

Walsh will win himself another deal but I don't see him wanting big big big money. He is a team first type and will see the benefits in signing a long term deal on very good money to stay with his mates rather than huge money elsewhere.

Williams and Saad again will have been front loaded. We had plenty of coin to splash last year and any good business person would have paid these 2 big coin to get that signature with years to come of a lot of $500k-$600k.

Dont get caught up in the hype. And if Cripps steps away, again, we will chase a big name or 2.

 

[Arr0w]

When did Cerra become this good a little bit hyped up to be honest.
Sure good young player but we making out like it is Sam Walsh.
Yeah would be a good get but at the right price and we have offered 750 k.
We are going to end up like Collingwood overpaying b graders.
Save the money for our young guns like Harry Weitering Walsh.



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No one is making out Cerra is Walsh like.

Where has it been stated we have offered $750k a year?

 

[Ash24]

Why do we need two KPD to contend - has something happened to Weitering and Jones?

Depth. Right now if one of Weiters or Jones goes down, we have no one to replace them. We are honestly playing with fire.

We might need to look at a mini reset this year and gather an additional top 10 pick so we can draft the best talls.

Look at Weitering for example, KPPs take a good 3-5 of development before being good at senior level. I'm not sure we exactly have the time/patience to sit through a 'mini' rebuild.

Might not delist, but would have come accross on good $ and cant get on the park so would move him onto a heavily incentivised contract.

Newman can barely get on the park? He did his knee last year and is most likely coming back into the seniors this week. This is the same guy that across his career has averaged 20 touches, 4 rebound 50s, 5 intercepts, 3 tackles, 13 pressure acts and over 400m gained! He is 100% in our best 22.

Newman hasn't played for 2 years.

He hasn't played since June last year (11 months), not 2 years.

Once TDK takes the #1 ruck role, having Pitto as depth is more than adequate and we can draft another.

See bolded point above ^^

Who is the elite forward at Richmond who can/has played in the ruck over the past few years?
Why can't TDK fill this role?

They have Pickett as their midfielder/ruck, and Soldo as a KPF/ruck. TDK can only fill this role if both him and Pitto are sharing ruck duties. Otherwise we're left with Casboult, which speaks for itself. We overall need to target most likely 2 KPDs, a KPF/ruck and 2 mid/wingers.

 

[Ricky Mott]

You should really let us know your thoughts on the Board's decisions sometime.

BTW what did you think of SOS opening the bank vault for MCGovern?

True, he’s gone backwards since players for the blues. Coaches keep playing him so must rate him.

 

[Gavstar]

Williams - I think we were all actually pretty happy when this was announced, though some of us did have reservations on the size & length of the contract. Right now it's not looking good, he doesn't seem a natural mid and not sure he has the tank...though it seems he's been carrying an injury. He's shown he CAN dominate a game in the middle. It probably came up too late but I would have liked Treloar who is a proven gun mid.

My concern was never the contract cost my concern was he was brought in to be a mid when he's an elite half back. I have watched the Giants since he started and never thought he would be in their top 5 midfielders at any time during his career. If we wanted to recruit a top giants midfielder Taranto, Tom Green, Kelly, Ward, Hopper & Coniglio are all better.....

 

[THE_GUN]

Haven't seen any of those reports, If I did wouldn't include it..

The Tom Lynch $950k deal is correct and it is/was back loaded as we had Cotchin, Prestia , Edwards , Rance etc all in their prime and on good coin so backending for post Cotch/Jack / Rance was the only way to fit him in.

Things changed when Rance retired early and was reportedly on $750k also Ellis/Conca/Higgins/Markov leaving had freed up a fair bit of cash early and we were even in the game offering Crouch $550k last year until the drug issue with stengle then pulled out.

 

[Milshouse]

Im thinking unfortunately that we should have just signed Williams for hbf, treloar for mid and took cox at 8 now , hope im wrong

 

[Arr0w]

Im thinking unfortunately that we should have just signed Williams for hbf, treloar for mid and took cox at 8 now , hope im wrong

Cox wasn't available at 8 (drifted out to 10)

 

[HereComesJuddy]

Im thinking unfortunately that we should have just signed Williams for hbf, treloar for mid and took cox at 8 now , hope im wrong

Saad was a great pick up. He isn't the problem

 

[Accidental genius]

I think Williams will get back his best soon. Ideally he plays predominantly as hbf and some in the middle. Saad Williams doc weit jones is a solid core.

 

[gbatman]

Could we trial the gov there in the back half 9f the season?

I've been keen to do this thought I see him as more of a third tall who can fill in as a key position player if needed. Constant injuries are a worry.

 

[gbatman]

Williams needs to play as a back pocket who goes into the centre for bursts, he's not fit enough to be a permanent midfielder, nowhere near it.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Williams is 5 games in and still incredibly under done. Still see no reason why he can’t become that 3rd/4th best mid who can float forward and be a danger.

Doc and Saad have the two attacking hbf spots, Parks, Plow and Stocker look okay as the more defensive minded “smalls”. Would be happy to leave that structure how it is.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Williams needs to play as a back pocket who goes into the centre for bursts, he's not fit enough to be a permanent midfielder, nowhere near it.

Spot on! And we'd be a much better team for it.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Williams is 5 games in and still incredibly under done. Still see no reason why he can’t become that 3rd/4th best mid who can float forward and be a danger.

Doc and Saad have the two attacking hbf spots, Parks, Plow and Stocker look okay as the more defensive minded “smalls”. Would be happy to leave that structure how it is.

Begs the question, why?

You would think that he'd have done everything he could to get his fitness right to play such a role that he requested...

Doc should be playing as a +1 imo.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Begs the question, why?

You would think that he'd have done everything he could to get his fitness right to play such a role that he requested...

Doc should be playing as a +1 imo.

Good question, you could ask the same about 15 blokes on our list.

Our player conditioning and general week to week fitness leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[bmaurizio]

Yup it’s time Russell receives closer scrutiny, and some of the recent high caliber recruits, are a real concern.
Very happy with development & mentoring of youngsters, will yield result later in the season and going forward , Footy department got it right at least, the overhaul was long overdue.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Williams is 5 games in and still incredibly under done. Still see no reason why he can’t become that 3rd/4th best mid who can float forward and be a danger.

Doc and Saad have the two attacking hbf spots, Parks, Plow and Stocker look okay as the more defensive minded “smalls”. Would be happy to leave that structure how it is.

This is my thinking. He did have 10 clearances in his first game so does have the ability. I’m all for putting a better two way running mid in there but we simply do not have one. None of his potential replacements are good runners so we may aswell play him there.

 

[The Return of the Paf]

Cox wasn't available at 8 (drifted out to 10)

I hope that's sarcasm.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

I hope that's sarcasm.

Cox wouldn’t have been available at our first pick

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Good question, you could ask the same about 15 blokes on our list.

Our player conditioning and general week to week fitness leaves a lot to be desired.

True, but how many of those 15 blokes are on about $800k?

 

[The Return of the Paf]

Cox wouldn’t have been available at our first pick

I admit I don't know the details of where he went in the draft but you can't apply the logic of 'said player was overlooked by others, therefore we wouldn't have picked him either' if that's what is being done. It's up to the club to make the right choices. Besides, there's plenty of other ways we could have utilised the pick during live trading.