2021 NON AFL Thread - finance, ratings, participation etc.

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Bjo187

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So the only thing you know is .... :rolleyes: ....
Just going off what my mate that lives in sydney was telling me that the nrl gf tickets are sold differently and each year they struggle to sell them out. Couldn't find any confirmation of this online though.
 

weewilly

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Just going off what my mate that lives in sydney was telling me that the nrl gf tickets are sold differently and each year they struggle to sell them out. Couldn't find any confirmation of this online though.
Stadium Australia holds 30,000 more than Suncorp that is why sometimes they struggle to sell out!
It is the ratings that will be interesting with the Storm not playing you would think there would not be as much interest in Melbourne for two NSW teams and we already know NRL doesn't rate that high in Adelaide and Perth.
 

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Kwality

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Stadium Australia holds 30,000 more than Suncorp that is why sometimes they struggle to sell out!
It is the ratings that will be interesting with the Storm not playing you would think there would not be as much interest in Melbourne for two NSW teams and we already know NRL doesn't rate that high in Adelaide and Perth.
It does rate in the 4th biggest audience, bigger than Perth or Adelaide.
 

NoobPie

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If you are talking about Melbourne so it should with over 5 million population in prime time on CH 9!
He's not. He is referring to "regional" as a discrete 'audience" that can be included in a ranking of otherwise state capital cities.

It is a peculiar classification approach quite unique to people named "Kwality"
 

The_Wookie

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LAst Panthers v Rabbitohs Grand final in 2014 rating 3.8m nationally, and hasnt been matched since.

NZSydneyMelbourneBrisbaneAdelaidePerthMetrol Total RegionalTotal
18411304755841111442597 12943891

If you dont include Regional ratings you are missing a significant portion of the TV market, and you really cant be taken seriously.

"Regional" is actually 6 different markets - Northern NSW, Southern NSW, Victoria, Queensland, Tasmania and WA

Last years NRL Grand Final had regional ratings of 869k, out of a total of 2.966m. This was more than the Sydney market rating of 848k, and larger than the combined ratings of Melbourne, Perth and Adelaide at 743k.

NNSW - 284k
SNSW - 183k
QLD - 239k
Vic - 95k
Tas - 35k
WA - 33k

Melbourne rated 608k, Brisbane 492k

The 2019 Grand Final featured neither the Storm nor a Queensland side, and rated 775k.

NNSW - 245k
SNSW - 204k
QLD - 222k
Vic - 72k
Tas & WA - 32k

Melbourne rated 332k, Brisbane 534k

Size of the market can be indicated by the number of Oztam boxes,

The Metro Oztam panel comprises a total of 5,250 household (Adelaide 650, Brisbane 1000, Melbourne 1475, Perth 650, Sydney 1475).

The Regional TAM panel currently comprises a total of 3,198 homes (Queensland 812, Northern NSW 700, Southern NSW 570, Victoria 651, Tasmania 285 and Regional West Australia 180) representing a potential audience of 7,859,300 individuals.

There is also a panel for the national subscription TV (STV) market, which comprises 2,120 subscription TV homes drawn from the metropolitan and Regional TAM services.
 

NoobPie

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LAst Panthers v Rabbitohs Grand final in 2014 rating 3.8m nationally, and hasnt been matched since.

NZSydneyMelbourneBrisbaneAdelaidePerthMetrol TotalRegionalTotal
1841130475584111144259712943891

Dos the national figure include NZ? It is 153K higher than the sum of the Australian figures

If you dont include Regional ratings you are missing a significant portion of the TV market, and you really cant be taken seriously.

"Regional" is actually 6 different markets - Northern NSW, Southern NSW, Victoria, Queensland, Tasmania and WA

Likewise if you consider "regional" one market for the purposes of relegating Perth and Adelaide to 5th and 6th you can't be taken seriously. It is, as you say, 6 different markets. It is also not all regional (non 5 metro) Australia
 

The_Wookie

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Dos the national figure include NZ? It is 153K higher than the sum of the Australian figures
No. The regional figure may also be consolidated, not overnight.

Likewise if you consider "regional" one market for the purposes of relegating Perth and Adelaide to 5th and 6th you can't be taken seriously. It is, as you say, 6 different markets.
I think hes alluding to the fact that regionals in general are an often inconvenient part of the AFL fans narratives. When we first started collating the available data in 2011, the big outcry from league circles was that regionals didnt get counted when they were a big part of league ratings due to canberra, newcastle, Illawarra, and Townsville all being represented in the league. The only AFL regional club is geelong, whose entire district is covered in Melbourne Metro ratings.

However, its not just AFL fans that have this issue, media reporting is generally around the metro figures or uses reach figures for headlines.

Regionals appear to have caught league fans by surprise in recent years, as they seem to have forgotten that the AFL also gets shown in regional markets.

[It is also not all regional (non 5 metro) Australia]

No, it excludes parts of regional SA, as well as parts of regional WA and all of the NT, as well as western regional Queensland - metro SA covers about 90% of the states of population.
 

NoobPie

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No. The regional figure may also be consolidated, not overnight.
Well, the aggregated metro figure is both 153k more than the sum of 5 metro ratings so certainly looks like there is an error there



I think hes alluding to the fact that regionals in general are an often inconvenient part of the AFL fans narratives. When we first started collating the available data in 2011, the big outcry from league circles was that regionals didnt get counted when they were a big part of league ratings due to canberra, newcastle, Illawarra, and Townsville all being represented in the league. The only AFL regional club is geelong, whose entire district is covered in Melbourne Metro ratings.

He has been alluding to that for years - ad nauseum - but more recently he has started to imply that it should be considered as one market / audience which is absurd. It is one thing to say the sum of all regional areas is greater than perth it is another thing to suggest this makes Perth the 5th biggest market.

Who is selling farm sheds in Bourke is of no relevance to the folk of Burnie


However, its not just AFL fans that have this issue, media reporting is generally around the metro figures or uses reach figures for headlines.

Regionals appear to have caught league fans by surprise in recent years, as they seem to have forgotten that the AFL also gets shown in regional markets.

[It is also not all regional (non 5 metro) Australia]

No, it excludes parts of regional SA, as well as parts of regional WA and all of the NT, as well as western regional Queensland - metro SA covers about 90% of the states of population.
Clearly there are reasons the likes of tv tonight and media spy present the metro figures as the do. The main practical purpose for tv ratings are informing TV advertising. That is, dick measuring between sporting codes is not the primary purpose

Likewise "reach" is of more relevance to overall level of engagement a code has even though it is less relevant to advertising value of an add.

Certainly from my experience around here there are no AFL fans denying the existence or relevance of regional ratings or that at least relatively, the NRL performs better there than in metros.
 

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The_Wookie

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He has been alluding to that for years - ad nauseum - but more recently he has started to imply that it should be considered as one market / audience which is absurd. It is one thing to say the sum of all regional areas is greater than perth it is another thing to suggest this makes Perth the 5th biggest market.
I dont think thats what he is doing - and ive read as many of his posts around here as anyone - i think he just generally wants the regional markets factored in - in terms of raw population NNSW/SNSW and QLD combined are larger than perth and definitely larger than Adelaide. In fact these combined are larger than both - and these are just from the 50 largest cities in the country.

4Perth WA2,083,645
5Adelaide SA1,357,504

Combined total 3,441,149

RankSignificant Urban Area2020 pop
6Gold Coast – Tweed Heads Qld/NSW
709,495​
7Newcastle – Maitland NSW
498,015​
8Canberra – Queanbeyan ACT/NSW
464,995​
9Sunshine Coast Qld
348,343​
10Central Coast NSW
337,284​
11Wollongong NSW
309,345​
14Townsville Qld
183,322​
15Cairns Qld
155,340​
16Toowoomba Qld
139,526​
22Mackay Qld
80,926​
23Rockhampton Qld
79,602​
26Coffs Harbour NSW
73,018​
27Bundaberg Qld
71,554​
28Wagga Wagga NSW
56,887​
29Hervey Bay Qld
55,975​
32Port Macquarie NSW
49,478​
33Gladstone – Tannum Sands Qld
45,938​
34Tamworth NSW
43,251​
36Bowral – Mittagong NSW
40,964​
37Orange NSW
40,888​
40Dubbo NSW
39,054​
41Nowra – Bomaderry NSW
38,314​
42Bathurst NSW
37,545​
49Lismore NSW
28,495​
50Nelson Bay NSW
28,490​
Total
3,956,044​


Who is selling farm sheds in Bourke is of no relevance to the folk of Burnie
It is relevant to the network selling the ads though, particularly for those national advertising campaigns which generally are a factor in sports broadcasting and the like.

Clearly there are reasons the likes of tv tonight and media spy present the metro figures as the do. The main practical purpose for tv ratings are informing TV advertising. That is, dick measuring between sporting codes is not the primary purpose
Seven and Nine both release national ratings daily through publicity, but mostly its because of how the data is released from Oztam. Oztam release a certain amount of data through press releases, Reg TAm releases very little - and two weeks later, so it misses the news cycle.

Likewise "reach" is of more relevance to overall level of engagement a code has even though it is less relevant to advertising value of an add.
People I work for occasionally at TVBlackbox dont believe reach is really relevant at all.

Certainly from my experience around here there are no AFL fans denying the existence or relevance of regional ratings or that at least relatively, the NRL performs better there than in metros.
Been plenty of it over the years.
 

NoobPie

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I dont think thats what he is doing - and ive read as many of his posts around here as anyone - i think he just generally wants the regional markets factored in -
That's what he is doing. He has said this on multiple occasions before and it is the only explanation for this


It does rate in the 4th biggest audience, bigger than Perth or Adelaide.
which was validated when he followed up with this

Didnt think you know - stick to the capital city comparisons.

in terms of raw population NNSW/SNSW and QLD combined are larger than perth and definitely larger than Adelaide. In fact these combined are larger than both - and these are just from the 50 largest cities in the country.

4Perth WA2,083,645
5Adelaide SA1,357,504

Combined total 3,441,149

RankSignificant Urban Area2020 pop
6Gold Coast – Tweed Heads Qld/NSW
709,495​
7Newcastle – Maitland NSW
498,015​
8Canberra – Queanbeyan ACT/NSW
464,995​
9Sunshine Coast Qld
348,343​
10Central Coast NSW
337,284​
11Wollongong NSW
309,345​
14Townsville Qld
183,322​
15Cairns Qld
155,340​
16Toowoomba Qld
139,526​
22Mackay Qld
80,926​
23Rockhampton Qld
79,602​
26Coffs Harbour NSW
73,018​
27Bundaberg Qld
71,554​
28Wagga Wagga NSW
56,887​
29Hervey Bay Qld
55,975​
32Port Macquarie NSW
49,478​
33Gladstone – Tannum Sands Qld
45,938​
34Tamworth NSW
43,251​
36Bowral – Mittagong NSW
40,964​
37Orange NSW
40,888​
40Dubbo NSW
39,054​
41Nowra – Bomaderry NSW
38,314​
42Bathurst NSW
37,545​
49Lismore NSW
28,495​
50Nelson Bay NSW
28,490​
Total
3,956,044​
You are hopefully aware that number 6, 9 and 10 on your list are either mostly or totally within either Brisbane or Sydney metro for ratings purposes? They make up about 40% of that figure




It is relevant to the network selling the ads though, particularly for those national advertising campaigns which generally are a factor in sports broadcasting and the like.

But largely focussed on the 5 metro markets where most people live and are under the consolidated ownership of the same media companies


Seven and Nine both release national ratings daily through publicity, but mostly its because of how the data is released from Oztam. Oztam release a certain amount of data through press releases, Reg TAm releases very little - and two weeks later, so it misses the news cycle.
And because 7 and 9 are, of course, primarily concerned with the metro markets

People I work for occasionally at TVBlackbox dont believe reach is really relevant at all.
Which means nothing. Not really relevant for what? What is the basis for their authority on the matter?

The reach tells us the number of people that watched at least a minute of a program. Short of it being skewed by overlapping with another program driving up the numbers, the reach is a measure of how many people were engaged to some degree, with the program.

Your buddies would need to explain why that is not a relevant measure for the purposes of establishing total engagement - even as a rough indicator. The only legitimate basis I could imagine is a methodological one.

Certainly no competent analyst would just take such a general statement on face value


Been plenty of it over the years.
AFL fans claiming that regional ratings don't matter at all? I don't recall seeing it in my time.

People question the accuracy of the regional data because the gaps clearly disadvantage AFL areas. (incidentally this is in addition to the STV data which also omits presumably the same areas according to the map I am looking at). That is very different to saying it shouldn't count at all
 

Kwality

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That's what he is doing. He has said this on multiple occasions before and it is the only explanation for this


Kwality said:
It does rate in the 4th biggest audience, bigger than Perth or Adelaide.
which was validated when he followed up with this

Kwality said:
Didnt think you know - stick to the capital city comparisons.
 

The_Wookie

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You are hopefully aware that number 6, 9 and 10 on your list are either mostly or totally within either Brisbane or Sydney metro for ratings purposes? They make up about 40% of that figure
Im aware that they are listed on both Oztam and Regionaltam - hell they even list the same postcodes in some cases.

But largely focussed on the 5 metro markets where most people live and are under the consolidated ownership of the same media companies
When certain regional markets are larger than metro markets thats not necessarily the case.

And because 7 and 9 are, of course, primarily concerned with the metro markets
Sure. I mean they completely disregard several million people without a care in the world.

Which means nothing. Not really relevant for what? What is the basis for their authority on the matter?
Well TV BlackBox guys are journos and studio execs, and they do the exact same thing with the same authority that Mediaweek and TV Tonight and other sites do. Id say, they would be considered something of an expert authority on the matter.

The reach tells us the number of people that watched at least a minute of a program. Short of it being skewed by overlapping with another program driving up the numbers, the reach is a measure of how many people were engaged to some degree, with the program.
Its also a fairly meaningless number, which is why the industry standard is averages, not reach or peak.

Your buddies would need to explain why that is not a relevant measure for the purposes of establishing total engagement - even as a rough indicator. The only legitimate basis I could imagine is a methodological one.
Its their belief that the reach figures are garbage and they have a policy of not using them on their site. Thats all I know.

Certainly no competent analyst would just take such a general statement on face value
dude get over yourself. I have published reach data both here and on twitter when its available.

AFL fans claiming that regional ratings don't matter at all? I don't recall seeing it in my time.
Then you should probably open your eyes a bit more.

People question the accuracy of the regional data because the gaps clearly disadvantage AFL areas. (incidentally this is in addition to the STV data which also omits presumably the same areas according to the map I am looking at). That is very different to saying it shouldn't count at all
Except they dont disadvantage "AFL states" any more than they do "NRL states". I mean look at the coverage maps, there are vast swathes of western Queensland and NSW that arent covered, just like there are big gaps in WA/SA and NT.
 
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kranger

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2021 membership numbers for 5 of the 9 WAFL clubs.

IMG_6374.JPG


IMG_6377.JPG


IMG_6375.JPG


IMG_6373.JPG


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South Fremantle won the premiership last year, and are playing in the grand final this weekend.

Clubs that are missing are:

• Swan Districts (potentially the largest)
• Peel
• East Perth
• Subiaco

It would be interesting to see the others, and also a comparison to SANFL clubs.
 

NoobPie

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Im aware that they are listed on both Oztam and Regionaltam - hell they even list the same postcodes in some cases.

Not sure that helps much, in this context. I know there is conjecture about whether there is double counting but ultimately the Brisbane region OZTAM population estimate of 3.479 million necessarily means that gold coast of sunshine coasts are included.....and thus are irrelevant to comparison you were making




When certain regional markets are larger than metro markets thats not necessarily the case.
but they're not

Sure. I mean they completely disregard several million people without a care in the world.
"Primarily concerned" does not equal "completely disregard all else"



Well TV BlackBox guys are journos and studio execs, and they do the exact same thing with the same authority that Mediaweek and TV Tonight and other sites do. Id say, they would be considered something of an expert authority on the matter.



Its also a fairly meaningless number, which is why the industry standard is averages, not reach or peak.



Its their belief that the reach figures are garbage and they have a policy of not using them on their site. Thats all I know.
Cool, well I'll wait until I have an actual explanation and until then will continue to identify reach figures as a useful proxy measure with overall engagement


dude get over yourself.
Nice. That was a general statement. A competent analyst would not just take such an unexplained assertion at face value. You took it personally that's your problem



Then you should probably open your eyes a bit more.
Sure

Except they dont disadvantage "AFL states" any more than they do "NRL states". I mean look at the coverage maps, there are vast swathes of western Queensland and NSW that arent covered, just like there are big gaps in WA/SA and NT.
You put "AFL states" in quote marks....I actually said "AFL areas"

Those great swathes of NSW and QLD include pro AFL areas in the former and otherwise have relatively few people in them.

There is a considerable disadvantage in the regions excluded for both regional and STV going off those maps
 

Kwality

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Good tidings for sports fans & the better rating sports, including the AFL & NRL:

Foxtel is in a competitive position after locking in long-term partnerships with the big five sports codes – the AFL, NRL, cricket and the motor sports – and is being “smarter” about which rights deals it chooses to pursue, the company’s boss, Patrick Delany, says.
At the same time, streaming services Kayo Sports, Binge and soon-to-launch Flash will help drive the broadcaster to five million subscribers within three years.


I know there are many here who would like to see Foxtels influence diminish:
Speaking at Foxtel’s strategy day on Thursday, chief executive Mr Delany said the media company’s ability to offer premium sport was the direct result of signing good deals with top codes and having detailed knowledge of what consumers wanted to watch.
“The data we have allows us to see what people are using and not using,” he said. “Prior to having that data, we would have layer upon layer of sports though we didn’t quite know what worked. But (that) has led us to where we should invest more.

“That’s why the strategy moved to the big five – the AFL, NRL, cricket and the motor sports.”

Mr Delany said it was also important to significantly invest in popular local sporting codes while also having plenty of international offerings available.

It does not hamper smaller sports or markets organising their own coverage.
 

NoobPie

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Just to put the rest this idea that the gaps in the regional ratings data (and foxtel for that matter) is in anyway symmetric, here is an analysis based on the maps provided at Reg Tam and OzTam

1633007412301.png


In NSW it is almost certainly the case that the excluded regions are, on the whole, more Aus football than rugby league. Primarily in the far (south) west with Broken Hill and Wentworth you have around 30K of people living in AF dominated areas. In the not included north west you have less than 20K people. Most of the excluded population is actually in classical barrassi line border lands in the northern riverina.

In Queensland, I have attributed all 70k to RL even though almost 20K live in Mount Isa which has more AF teams playing in the local league than RL.

This missing north west of Victoria is at least the 54K in Mildura LGA, however looking at the map the missing chunk is bigger than that, including the likes of Robindale and which has over 3K, but I've gone with 54K on account of couldn't be arsed going through postcodes etc

So the eastern states effectively cancel themselves out and there an additional 510K when you factor in regional SA and all of NT. For foxtel, with WA regional not included, you are out over 1 million people to the disadvantage of the AFL
 

weewilly

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Just to put the rest this idea that the gaps in the regional ratings data (and foxtel for that matter) is in anyway symmetric, here is an analysis based on the maps provided at Reg Tam and OzTam

View attachment 1250133

In NSW it is almost certainly the case that the excluded regions are, on the whole, more Aus football than rugby league. Primarily in the far (south) west with Broken Hill and Wentworth you have around 30K of people living in AF dominated areas. In the not included north west you have less than 20K people. Most of the excluded population is actually in classical barrassi line border lands in the northern riverina.

In Queensland, I have attributed all 70k to RL even though almost 20K live in Mount Isa which has more AF teams playing in the local league than RL.

This missing north west of Victoria is at least the 54K in Mildura LGA, however looking at the map the missing chunk is bigger than that, including the likes of Robindale and which has over 3K, but I've gone with 54K on account of couldn't be arsed going through postcodes etc

So the eastern states effectively cancel themselves out and there an additional 510K when you factor in regional SA and all of NT. For foxtel, with WA regional not included, you are out over 1 million people to the disadvantage of the AFL
A lot of the NSW Southern Riverina up to Wagga Wagga is also Australian Football territory!
 

Kwality

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Just to put the rest this idea that the gaps in the regional ratings data (and foxtel for that matter) is in anyway symmetric, here is an analysis based on the maps provided at Reg Tam and OzTam

View attachment 1250133

In NSW it is almost certainly the case that the excluded regions are, on the whole, more Aus football than rugby league. Primarily in the far (south) west with Broken Hill and Wentworth you have around 30K of people living in AF dominated areas. In the not included north west you have less than 20K people. Most of the excluded population is actually in classical barrassi line border lands in the northern riverina.

In Queensland, I have attributed all 70k to RL even though almost 20K live in Mount Isa which has more AF teams playing in the local league than RL.

This missing north west of Victoria is at least the 54K in Mildura LGA, however looking at the map the missing chunk is bigger than that, including the likes of Robindale and which has over 3K, but I've gone with 54K on account of couldn't be arsed going through postcodes etc

So the eastern states effectively cancel themselves out and there an additional 510K when you factor in regional SA and all of NT. For foxtel, with WA regional not included, you are out over 1 million people to the disadvantage of the AFL
What do you claim these numbers to indicate?
 

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