Training 2021 Pre-season Training

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Pre-season scratch match – Sydney Swans v GWS Giants
Saturday, February, 27
11am at GIANTS Stadium
Live stream via sydneyswans.com.au
 

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caesar88

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Apr 26, 2016
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I don't get the urgency around Gould, nor the shock that he hasn't come close to debuting yet. History shows that Horse - who, given his outstanding track record at developing defenders, is the ultimate voice of authority here - does not expose young defenders to the elite level until they are absolutely ready.

I think AJ was the last defender to play senior footy within a year of being drafted, taken in 2010 and debuting by round 3 the following year. Since then, it's been:

- Harry Marsh (drafted in 2012, didn't debut until 2016)
- Matthew Dick (drafted in 2012, didn't play a game)
- Dane Rampe (who wasn't even drafted until the age of 23)
- Aliir Aliir (drafted in 2013, didn't debut until 2016)
- Abe Davis (drafted in 2014, didn't play a game)
- Lewis Melican (drafted in 2014, didn't debut until 2017)
- Jack Maibaum (drafted in 2016, didn't play a game)
- Toby Pink (drafted in 2016, didn't play a game)
- Durak Tucker (drafted in 2018, didn't play a game.)

So since AJ, that's five defenders we've drafted who didn't end up playing a game for us, and of the four who did end up debuting, the average age they ended up debuting at was 22. Gould just turned 20. I trust Gould's ability, I trust Horse's experience in this area, and I trust the process. Would love it if he could debut this year. Not concerned if he doesn't.
 

BruceFromBalnarring

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Jan 13, 2007
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I don't get the urgency around Gould, nor the shock that he hasn't come close to debuting yet. History shows that Horse - who, given his outstanding track record at developing defenders, is the ultimate voice of authority here - does not expose young defenders to the elite level until they are absolutely ready.

I think AJ was the last defender to play senior footy within a year of being drafted, taken in 2010 and debuting by round 3 the following year. Since then, it's been:

- Harry Marsh (drafted in 2012, didn't debut until 2016)
- Matthew Dick (drafted in 2012, didn't play a game)
- Dane Rampe (who wasn't even drafted until the age of 23)
- Aliir Aliir (drafted in 2013, didn't debut until 2016)
- Abe Davis (drafted in 2014, didn't play a game)
- Lewis Melican (drafted in 2014, didn't debut until 2017)
- Jack Maibaum (drafted in 2016, didn't play a game)
- Toby Pink (drafted in 2016, didn't play a game)
- Durak Tucker (drafted in 2018, didn't play a game.)

So since AJ, that's five defenders we've drafted who didn't end up playing a game for us, and of the four who did end up debuting, the average age they ended up debuting at was 22. Gould just turned 20. I trust Gould's ability, I trust Horse's experience in this area, and I trust the process. Would love it if he could debut this year. Not concerned if he doesn't.
The sense with Gould when he was drafted was that he was “senior ready” having played at SANFL already.
 

SGBeach

Club Legend
Jul 19, 2019
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I don't get the urgency around Gould, nor the shock that he hasn't come close to debuting yet. History shows that Horse - who, given his outstanding track record at developing defenders, is the ultimate voice of authority here - does not expose young defenders to the elite level until they are absolutely ready.

I think AJ was the last defender to play senior footy within a year of being drafted, taken in 2010 and debuting by round 3 the following year. Since then, it's been:

- Harry Marsh (drafted in 2012, didn't debut until 2016)
- Matthew Dick (drafted in 2012, didn't play a game)
- Dane Rampe (who wasn't even drafted until the age of 23)
- Aliir Aliir (drafted in 2013, didn't debut until 2016)
- Abe Davis (drafted in 2014, didn't play a game)
- Lewis Melican (drafted in 2014, didn't debut until 2017)
- Jack Maibaum (drafted in 2016, didn't play a game)
- Toby Pink (drafted in 2016, didn't play a game)
- Durak Tucker (drafted in 2018, didn't play a game.)

So since AJ, that's five defenders we've drafted who didn't end up playing a game for us, and of the four who did end up debuting, the average age they ended up debuting at was 22. Gould just turned 20. I trust Gould's ability, I trust Horse's experience in this area, and I trust the process. Would love it if he could debut this year. Not concerned if he doesn't.
the urgency (or in other words 'hope') that Gould debuts is coming from a different space. We are re-building.. that means we (as fans and coaches) are wanting to play the young kids, wanting them to play games together and develop cohesion. We all have high hopes for Gould As Bruce from B pointed out. We lost Allirr and Mills has moved to the mids. Thats two spots in the back 6 open up. Goulds resume fits the bill of a combo between Allir and Mills. Intercept, big body, classy kick etc. If Gould doesn't play at least 5-10ish games this year, I don't reckon he ever will.
In the rebuild Horse will play players earlier. eg.. Ling.. Defender, injured for two years, got his chance last year and will get more this year
 

caesar88

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 26, 2016
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The sense with Gould when he was drafted was that he was “senior ready” having played at SANFL already.
I get that. But I'm not as sold on the idea that SANFL/WAFL/NEAFL prepares you for senior footy any more than say playing in the NAB League in Vic. Sure, the guys you're playing against are older and bigger and stronger. They're also probably not as talented as some of the 17/18 year olds running around in the NAB League, otherwise they wouldn't be in those state leagues to begin with. So it's a catch-22 IMO.

the urgency (or in other words 'hope') that Gould debuts is coming from a different space. We are re-building.. that means we (as fans and coaches) are wanting to play the young kids, wanting them to play games together and develop cohesion. We all have high hopes for Gould As Bruce from B pointed out. We lost Allirr and Mills has moved to the mids. Thats two spots in the back 6 open up. Goulds resume fits the bill of a combo between Allir and Mills. Intercept, big body, classy kick etc. If Gould doesn't play at least 5-10ish games this year, I don't reckon he ever will.
In the rebuild Horse will play players earlier. eg.. Ling.. Defender, injured for two years, got his chance last year and will get more this year
Hope is fair enough. I too have high hopes for Gould. But throwing a key defender in prematurely is very different to throwing in a different kind of player. McInerney debuted before he was ready, but it wasn't a disaster. We were essentially playing one man short, but it was not a humiliating experience for McInerney. Similarly when Blakey was having quiet games as a forward, there wasn't much harm done, as tall forwards often have dry spells when the ball isn't coming their way.

But if you play a key defender before he is ready, and his opponent gets off the chain, that could lead to having a bag kicked against you on debut. The chances of that happening are only increased by the fact that we are a rebuilding side as you say, who concede a lot of inside 50s and are still figuring out the dynamics of our back 6/7. That's not an environment conducive to a good introduction to senior footy IMO.
 

SGBeach

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Jul 19, 2019
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I get that. But I'm not as sold on the idea that SANFL/WAFL/NEAFL prepares you for senior footy any more than say playing in the NAB League in Vic. Sure, the guys you're playing against are older and bigger and stronger. They're also probably not as talented as some of the 17/18 year olds running around in the NAB League, otherwise they wouldn't be in those state leagues to begin with. So it's a catch-22 IMO.



Hope is fair enough. I too have high hopes for Gould. But throwing a key defender in prematurely is very different to throwing in a different kind of player. McInerney debuted before he was ready, but it wasn't a disaster. We were essentially playing one man short, but it was not a humiliating experience for McInerney. Similarly when Blakey was having quiet games as a forward, there wasn't much harm done, as tall forwards often have dry spells when the ball isn't coming their way.

But if you play a key defender before he is ready, and his opponent gets off the chain, that could lead to having a bag kicked against you on debut. The chances of that happening are only increased by the fact that we are a rebuilding side as you say, who concede a lot of inside 50s and are still figuring out the dynamics of our back 6/7. That's not an environment conducive to a good introduction to senior footy IMO.
I agree that Key defenders take time to develop,, and that its unfair to throw them in too early. But Gould is not a key defender. That role will be taken by Melican, McCartin and at times during the game Rampe will step in. Brand provides depth in that area. Defenders like Ling and Gould should get games earlier.
I see Gould as playing on the 3rd tall or as an intercept, or as a rebound defender. His biggest strength is his kick , he's 191cm which makes Dawson taller than him and i Dawson is not a key defender.
I hope Gould gets a fair few games this season and in 5 years time players like Dawson, Melican, Ling and Gould (OConnor) are forming the core of a very solid defence
 

caesar88

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 26, 2016
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I agree that Key defenders take time to develop,, and that its unfair to throw them in too early. But Gould is not a key defender. That role will be taken by Melican, McCartin and at times during the game Rampe will step in. Brand provides depth in that area. Defenders like Ling and Gould should get games earlier.
I see Gould as playing on the 3rd tall or as an intercept, or as a rebound defender. His biggest strength is his kick , he's 191cm which makes Dawson taller than him and i Dawson is not a key defender.
I hope Gould gets a fair few games this season and in 5 years time players like Dawson, Melican, Ling and Gould (OConnor) are forming the core of a very solid defence
Yeah you're right that he's not the typical key defender like a Reg/Rampe/Melican, but you still have to be able to defend and balance both the contested and attacking sides to your game. In that sense it can take even longer for this kind of defender to develop, as it did with Aliir, as opposed to just the old full back whose sole job is to shut down their direct opponent. Knowing when to defend against his opponent and when to play loose and help out, knowing when to take the game on or when to play it safe, spoiling, intercept marking, rebounding, body-work. He's got a lot on his plate as far as his development goes, but as to your point about our future back group, if he keeps showing improvement then I think that will be all Horse needs to see for now to keep the faith.
 

rustycrate

Debutant
Oct 18, 2018
50
70
AFL Club
Sydney
Yeah you're right that he's not the typical key defender like a Reg/Rampe/Melican, but you still have to be able to defend and balance both the contested and attacking sides to your game. In that sense it can take even longer for this kind of defender to develop, as it did with Aliir, as opposed to just the old full back whose sole job is to shut down their direct opponent. Knowing when to defend against his opponent and when to play loose and help out, knowing when to take the game on or when to play it safe, spoiling, intercept marking, rebounding, body-work. He's got a lot on his plate as far as his development goes, but as to your point about our future back group, if he keeps showing improvement then I think that will be all Horse needs to see for now to keep the faith.
Existing not tall defenders
Rampe (31)
Lloyd(28)
Cunningham(28)
Dawson(24)

Tall ones
Melican (25) - tall
McCartin (22) - tall
Brand (27) backup tall

I reckon
Ling(22)-small defender ergo Cunningham
Gould(20)-small and tall ergo Rampe
Campbell(19) rebounding defender maybe Lloyd

Carruthers says hello
Fox is intent on getting games anywhere

They are the replacements at this early time.

You try getting a crack in that back 6 if you are not a tall.
 

caesar88

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 26, 2016
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Existing not tall defenders
Rampe (31)
Lloyd(28)
Cunningham(28)
Dawson(24)

Tall ones
Melican (25) - tall
McCartin (22) - tall
Brand (27) backup tall

I reckon
Ling(22)-small defender ergo Cunningham
Gould(20)-small and tall ergo Rampe
Campbell(19) rebounding defender maybe Lloyd

Carruthers says hello
Fox is intent on getting games anywhere

They are the replacements at this early time.

You try getting a crack in that back 6 if you are not a tall.
Yeah I don't envy that latter group trying to establish themselves. They have to hope for an injury opportunity like Fox had last year, and then grab that opportunity with both hands, as Fox also did. But that's easier said than done.

I think it's one of the trickier things I've noticed about managing a rebuilding side. How do you give opportunities to the exciting younger talent that can't yet match the output of the established players they're trying to replace, even though those younger players will likely be more crucial to the future than the established player? Think the same dilemma exists with the mids at the minute.
 

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Ticky009

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Yeah I don't envy that latter group trying to establish themselves....How do you give opportunities to the exciting younger talent that can't yet match the output of the established players they're trying to replace, even though those younger players will likely be more crucial to the future than the established player?
Well, its not a good situation, but the new concussion ruling will have more players out missing a game than previously and therefore provide some further opportunities.
 

caesar88

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Well, its not a good situation, but the new concussion ruling will have more players out missing a game than previously and therefore provide some further opportunities.
Good call Ticky. Although I worry about the point that that ex-Swans medico made (can't remember his name), in that there will be more concussion cases being hidden by the players in question, in fear of missing games. You'd hope they are smarter and more responsible than that, but this is the playing cohort that last year couldn't get hub-life right.
 

rustycrate

Debutant
Oct 18, 2018
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Yeah I don't envy that latter group trying to establish themselves. They have to hope for an injury opportunity like Fox had last year, and then grab that opportunity with both hands, as Fox also did. But that's easier said than done.

I think it's one of the trickier things I've noticed about managing a rebuilding side. How do you give opportunities to the exciting younger talent that can't yet match the output of the established players they're trying to replace, even though those younger players will likely be more crucial to the future than the established player? Think the same dilemma exists with the mids at the minute.
Apart from ruck this is happening everywhere now.

I looked at our side today and thinking of the next draft we have to remove 3 players from our primary list.
I said to myself
Kennedy
ORiordan
and Warner only because I could not find anyone obvious else. may be a ruck?
Its hard this year. Everyone, especially after last year, deserves a chance to prove.

But the draft is relentless.
It comes around every 12 months.

Who are the 3 that are removed from the primary list?
 

Kiama Chris

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May 10, 2016
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Apart from ruck this is happening everywhere now.

I looked at our side today and thinking of the next draft we have to remove 3 players from our primary list.
I said to myself
Kennedy
ORiordan
and Warner only because I could not find anyone obvious else. may be a ruck?
Its hard this year. Everyone, especially after last year, deserves a chance to prove.

But the draft is relentless.
It comes around every 12 months.

Who are the 3 that are removed from the primary list?
Big chance JPK retires. Possibly Sinkers too.
There are a few contracts coming due.
Grey and Taylor will most likely go.
Possibly Amartey? Only has one year.
A few guys walking a tightrope.
 

caesar88

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I don't think Kennedy has any plans on retiring any time soon. I don't think he would've put his hand up to co-captain the club again if he had his mind drifting towards retirement. That sort of a role requires total commitment to the club's present and future.
 

caesar88

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 26, 2016
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Apart from ruck this is happening everywhere now.

I looked at our side today and thinking of the next draft we have to remove 3 players from our primary list.
I said to myself
Kennedy
ORiordan
and Warner only because I could not find anyone obvious else. may be a ruck?
Its hard this year. Everyone, especially after last year, deserves a chance to prove.

But the draft is relentless.
It comes around every 12 months.

Who are the 3 that are removed from the primary list?
I mean realistically I could see any of the following not being on the list by the end of this year for a variety of reasons: Amartey, Bell, Brand, Clarke, Malachy, Fox, Gray, Hewett, Ling, McLean, Naismith, O'Connor, COR, Reid, Ronke, Sheather, Sinclair and Wicks. That's eighteen right there, and that's just of the out of contract players (don't forget losing contracted players at the trade table is becoming more and more common these days.)

The bolded are the five I'd most want to see retained.
 

rustycrate

Debutant
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Big chance JPK retires. Possibly Sinkers too.
There are a few contracts coming due.
Grey and Taylor will most likely go.
Possibly Amartey? Only has one year.
A few guys walking a tightrope.
Only problem is
Taylor is contracted to 2022
Sinkers may have another year (but with Naismith it would be iffy to get rid of him, just sayin), If Hickey got injured. We desperately need some young rucks coming through.
Amartey is interesting. Talls take longer. Had a good rep in the latest game.
 

rustycrate

Debutant
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Only problem is
Taylor is contracted to 2022
Sinkers may have another year (but with Naismith it would be iffy to get rid of him, just sayin), If Hickey got injured. We desperately need some young rucks coming through.
Amartey is interesting. Talls take longer. Had a good rep in the latest game.
Also Grey is on the rookie list.

So from your post you removed Kennedy, Amartey and Sinkers.

This is my point. It is going to be very hard to decide unless other factors come into play.
 

rustycrate

Debutant
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I mean realistically I could see any of the following not being on the list by the end of this year for a variety of reasons: Amartey, Bell, Brand, Clarke, Malachy, Fox, Gray, Hewett, Ling, McLean, Naismith, O'Connor, COR, Reid, Ronke, Sheather, Sinclair and Wicks. That's eighteen right there, and that's just of the out of contract players (don't forget losing contracted players at the trade table is becoming more and more common these days.)

The bolded are the five I'd most want to see retained.
I am specifically looking at the main list.
From your selections these are
Amartey
Bell
Brand
Clarke

Fox
Gray
Hewett
Ling

Naismith
COR
Reid
Ronke
Sinkers

I highlighted those you chose to keep.

Rucks
Sinkers is backup to Hickey. Or vs versa. Naismith is a work in progress.
Amartey who knows whether he is a for/Ruc or whatever. But he is still young.

Backs
We need Brand as THE backup tall.
COR is out of contract and up against Ling, Gould, Fox, Campbell etc

Mids
Clarke is the best backup.
Gray is still contracted until 2022.
I think Bell is showing something. Still young

Forwards
Reid. We need talls. He is still best 22
Ronke. Lots of competition. Papley, Wicks, Gulden, etc


My point is you have to pick 3 to be removed prior to the next draft.
Its hard

OK
from your list I narrowed it down to COR and Ronke
 

rustycrate

Debutant
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I am specifically looking at the main list.
From your selections these are
Amartey
Bell
Brand
Clarke

Fox
Gray
Hewett
Ling

Naismith
COR
Reid
Ronke
Sinkers

I highlighted those you chose to keep.

Rucks
Sinkers is backup to Hickey. Or vs versa. Naismith is a work in progress.
Amartey who knows whether he is a for/Ruc or whatever. But he is still young.

Backs
We need Brand as THE backup tall.
COR is out of contract and up against Ling, Gould, Fox, Campbell etc

Mids
Clarke is the best backup.
Gray is still contracted until 2022.
I think Bell is showing something. Still young

Forwards
Reid. We need talls. He is still best 22
Ronke. Lots of competition. Papley, Wicks, Gulden, etc


My point is you have to pick 3 to be removed prior to the next draft.
Its hard

OK
from your list I narrowed it down to COR and Ronke
Edit: Gray is a Cat A rookie.
 

hairy biker

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Good call Ticky. Although I worry about the point that that ex-Swans medico made (can't remember his name), in that there will be more concussion cases being hidden by the players in question, in fear of missing games. You'd hope they are smarter and more responsible than that, but this is the playing cohort that last year couldn't get hub-life right.
The doc is Nathan Gibbs.
Courted recent controversy by allowing a NSW player (Boyd Cordner) back on the field in game 1 of the State of Origin, even though the player had the 'staggers' after a hit to the head.
Game was in November 2020. Cordner hasn't played since and is likely out to at least RD 12 of this season with concussion related issues.

Gibbs also claimed back in 2017;
In the aftermath of the 140 concussions he recorded (over his 12 years as club doctor) , every Swan played the following week. And their immediate performance – based on a mark out of 20 given by the coach – was unaffected. "They played well," Gibbs says. "The outcomes were good."

His research/views on concussion are somewhat out of line with most sport medicos/researchers.
 

caesar88

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 26, 2016
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The doc is Nathan Gibbs.
Courted recent controversy by allowing a NSW player (Boyd Cordner) back on the field in game 1 of the State of Origin, even though the player had the 'staggers' after a hit to the head.
Game was in November 2020. Cordner hasn't played since and is likely out to at least RD 12 of this season with concussion related issues.

Gibbs also claimed back in 2017;
In the aftermath of the 140 concussions he recorded (over his 12 years as club doctor) , every Swan played the following week. And their immediate performance – based on a mark out of 20 given by the coach – was unaffected. "They played well," Gibbs says. "The outcomes were good."

His research/views on concussion are somewhat out of line with most sport medicos/researchers.
I wouldn't know or care to know anything about him. I just thought he made a very good point.
 

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