VFL 2021 Sandringham Zebras

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FQFjt

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I actually reckon our VFL side more shows the true lack of depth in our side. If you look at the Dogs and even Melbourne there are very good players playing VFL. Even the Gold Coast have guys like Fiorini and Brody playing great footy. We probably need to have another 5 or 6 AFL standard players on the list, most of our depth are just starting or way past it.
AFAIK we have the least number of listed players of any team at the moment (35 senior players and 5 rookies) and have had a heap of injuries on top of that. Then last week we apparently held back all 4 of our emergencies from playing for Sandy. So it doesn't surprise me whatsoever that our VFL side has suffered the consequences.
 

bird_man

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the dead give away is the last 10 matches at the top...

it's worth noting that Allen was playing in a side that is much stronger than Sandringham are now. they made an elimination final and had a functional midfield and supporting players.

allen also made his debut the previous year for west perth who like east perth were pretty damn strong with bigger bodies around him.

you need to give the kid time to find his feet, even more so given the state of the sandringham list, just let him play it out with the structures in the senior side.

if he's still in this position come next year then you might have a point, but right now its wayyyyyyy too early to call.
Whats the dead give away?

Allen performed well enough to earn himself am AFL game mid year. He was clearly doing something right. Not sure if you've watched the Sandy games but Allison looks so far from AFL footy right now so it's no comparison.

I'm not suggesting Allison is going to be a bust but he's clearly a project player. He's no where near it right now.
I'm definitely not sold on the guy and I'm not saying I think he's a gun and will work out.

i just don't get the knock on him, given the nature of last season, the pick he was taken at and how quick everyone was to write him off.

what was even more bizarre is people not understanding why Mayo was delisted only to take Allison. I'm a big Mayo fan (hehehehe), but he's not even back playing for Subi yet. he's training but not yet ready. there is no way we were in a position to carry the guy into 2021 given he wasn't going to be available for a pre-season or the majority of 2021.
It's the whole selection that confused everyone. Why are we taking a project key forward with our highest pick in 2 years?

We currently can't find a spot for Battle in our forward line. Our midfield looks like it doesn't have the quality to take us to the next level and we are desperate for a key defender.

We've spent one top 40 pick on a mid since 2015 and 3 of them on key forwards.

A project key forward would have made much more sense with a late or rookie selection.
 
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StCicatriz

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Whats the dead give away?

Allen performed well enough to earn himself am AFL game mid year. He was clearly doing something right. Not sure if you've watched the Sandy games but Allison looks so far from AFL footy right now so it's no comparison.

I'm not suggesting Allison is going to be a bust but he's clearly a project player. He's no where near it right now.
It's the whole selection that confused everyone. Why are we taking a project key forward with our highest pick in 2 years?

We currently can't find a spot for Battle in our forward line. Our midfield looks like it doesn't have the quality to take us to the next level and we are desperate for a key defender.

A project key forward would have made much more sense with a late or rookie selection.
the deadset give away was at the top of the screenshot from the section you took "his first game" stat from had in big letters "LAST 10 GAMES" that is why his debut game is not shown because the section only shows the last 10 games.

"It's the whole selection that confused everyone. Why are we taking a project key forward with our highest pick in 2 years?"

because we traded away all our picks... meaning the highest pick we had was in a highly compromised draft, so it got pushed back to pick 26. at pick 26 we took best available, which the recruiters believe is allison.

you may view that differently and do not believe he is the best available at pick 26 but the recruiters obviously see it differently.

lets suppose we take a mid at pick 26... do you think he's going to impact this side now? you have the exact same issue with a forward! to make room for Clark having a full game on the wing, we had to move Brad Hill to the HBF! that's without Gresham or Hanners out there! so any one taken at pick 26 last year was going to be starting from a loooooonnnngggg way back and was going to find it extremely difficult to break into the senior side.

but again, lets give the kid sometime to adjust to footy in a bad VFL side. I'm sure if you took Allen out of that East Perth side and put him in Sandy his form line would have looked very very different. i know because I watched him play and I watched East Perth!

Sandy right now need to become competitive, so the kids we send there have something to work with. right now they're just not up to standard and that means any U18 thrown into that team is going to find it harder than they would at a more competitive side.
 

Winmar2Lockett

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Whats the dead give away?

Allen performed well enough to earn himself am AFL game mid year. He was clearly doing something right. Not sure if you've watched the Sandy games but Allison looks so far from AFL footy right now so it's no comparison.

I'm not suggesting Allison is going to be a bust but he's clearly a project player. He's no where near it right now.
It's the whole selection that confused everyone. Why are we taking a project key forward with our highest pick in 2 years?

We currently can't find a spot for Battle in our forward line. Our midfield looks like it doesn't have the quality to take us to the next level and we are desperate for a key defender.

We've spent one top 40 pick on a mid since 2015 and 3 of them on key forwards.

A project key forward would have made much more sense with a late or rookie selection.
Or Allison might have just had a quiet few games. That doesn't make him a project player.

Was obviously rated best available at that point by Libba & co.
 

ScrappyDo

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He was our biggest pick in 2 years.

The fact we got Crouch and Higgins doesn't mean he's a free hit. Our list is far from perfect.
It's not a black and white proposition. If you've got good youth in the works already it doesn't matter what pick they were.

Allison was pick 26 after all, not a top 10.
Yes you can say that it's the highest for a few years, or you can say that it's just pick 26 in a speculative year.
By accident or design, we took a likely type from a thin talent pool in a bastardized draft that had no games for the VIC kids, and being a long term developer to some degree has reduced some the associated risk. It seems risk mitigation was a strategy for that year and fair enough.

I'm not attached to it either way, I'm just of the belief that it's a bit silly to make a call on it yet. We don't know the list strategy or who was left on Libba's list at draft night. We've got Highmore and we'll get a few in the MSD. Best to hold fire till then at least..
 

ScrappyDo

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I'm definitely not sold on the guy and I'm not saying I think he's a gun and will work out.

i just don't get the knock on him, given the nature of last season, the pick he was taken at and how quick everyone was to write him off.

what was even more bizarre is people not understanding why Mayo was delisted only to take Allison. I'm a big Mayo fan (hehehehe), but he's not even back playing for Subi yet. he's training but not yet ready. there is no way we were in a position to carry the guy into 2021 given he wasn't going to be available for a pre-season or the majority of 2021.
2 knees in 3 years would be my guess...
 

ScrappyDo

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Or Allison might have just had a quiet few games. That doesn't make him a project player.

Was obviously rated best available at that point by Libba & co.
This is the point.
We here know SFA about it, and even the sad bastards over on the draft board that spend every waking moment watching footage had players positioned in the 1st round that went last pick, rookied or undrafted.
 

bird_man

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the deadset give away was at the top of the screenshot from the section you took "his first game" stat from had in big letters "LAST 10 GAMES" that is why his debut game is not shown because the section only shows the last 10 games.

"It's the whole selection that confused everyone. Why are we taking a project key forward with our highest pick in 2 years?"

because we traded away all our picks... meaning the highest pick we had was in a highly compromised draft, so it got pushed back to pick 26. at pick 26 we took best available, which the recruiters believe is allison.

you may view that differently and do not believe he is the best available at pick 26 but the recruiters obviously see it differently.

lets suppose we take a mid at pick 26... do you think he's going to impact this side now? you have the exact same issue with a forward! to make room for Clark having a full game on the wing, we had to move Brad Hill to the HBF! that's without Gresham or Hanners out there! so any one taken at pick 26 last year was going to be starting from a loooooonnnngggg way back and was going to find it extremely difficult to break into the senior side.

but again, lets give the kid sometime to adjust to footy in a bad VFL side. I'm sure if you took Allen out of that East Perth side and put him in Sandy his form line would have looked very very different. i know because I watched him play and I watched East Perth!

Sandy right now need to become competitive, so the kids we send there have something to work with. right now they're just not up to standard and that means any U18 thrown into that team is going to find it harder than they would at a more competitive side.
I didn't once say that I expected a mid to come in and impact the game straight away so I don't know why you'd even suggest that?

Obviously the recruiters thought he was the best available otherwise they wouldn't have picked him, but does that mean we all have to sit here and agree?

Have we got all out picks right in the past?

I'm happy to give the kid time, I've not once suggested he was a bust and I hope to be proven wrong and he turns out to be a great selection, but right now I will call it how I see it.

The pick made no sense to me at the time and right now he is seriously struggling at VFL level. He's a project player and he is going to take time though and I get that.

As for Allen, it's great that you watched him play at WAFL level and you think he struggled but clearly the people at West Coast didn't agree as he was playing senior footy in his first year.

18 touches and 8 marks in your 2nd game back from injury is a good start and is about the same that Allison has in all his first 3 games put together.
 

AirWinmar

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I actually reckon our VFL side more shows the true lack of depth in our side. If you look at the Dogs and even Melbourne there are very good players playing VFL. Even the Gold Coast have guys like Fiorini and Brody playing great footy. We probably need to have another 5 or 6 AFL standard players on the list, most of our depth are just starting or way past it.
I think we're 3 o 4 list spots down though, so should be a little better after the mid season draft you would hope
 

Ads734

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That's a fair point. Tall, athletic, with "elite" traits was the bio for Noah Balta too.
I think the old ways are somewhat out the window now if you look at a bloke like Nick Cox.

In many ways Allison was a free hit. We gave up a 2nd for Snaggs, got Crouch for nothing, and got a need in Highmore who's ready to go by the looks of it. It was a very good spread of acquisitions for the cost, and of course it's not over yet with the MSD yet to come.

I think half the issue is posters thinking the sky is falling in after a poor start to the season.
If we are to feed Highmore(23), Snaggs(22), Bytel(21) and Byrnes(20) into the team this season, then that a huge injection of youth regardless of the means by which they arrived.
We really have nothing to worry about in this department..
I think Bolta is a great comparison. Also think he's a high chractar guy. Lets just be patient imagin how hard itis to be forward at St Kilda let alone the Zebra's when you have some seriously poor ball users kicking it to you.
 

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pebblesofsand

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It's not a black and white proposition. If you've got good youth in the works already it doesn't matter what pick they were.

Allison was pick 26 after all, not a top 10.
Yes you can say that it's the highest for a few years, or you can say that it's just pick 26 in a speculative year.
By accident or design, we took a likely type from a thin talent pool in a bastardized draft that had no games for the VIC kids, and being a long term developer to some degree has reduced some the associated risk. It seems risk mitigation was a strategy for that year and fair enough.

I'm not attached to it either way, I'm just of the belief that it's a bit silly to make a call on it yet. We don't know the list strategy or who was left on Libba's list at draft night. We've got Highmore and we'll get a few in the MSD. Best to hold fire till then at least..
Or alternatively they saw enough there to think that he wouldn't get through the draft (or more likely the midseason draft) so pulled the trigger.

For what its worth = we picked him @26, many phantom drafts had him around Pick 30. So hardly a reach.
 

bird_man

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It's not a black and white proposition. If you've got good youth in the works already it doesn't matter what pick they were.

Allison was pick 26 after all, not a top 10.
Yes you can say that it's the highest for a few years, or you can say that it's just pick 26 in a speculative year.
By accident or design, we took a likely type from a thin talent pool in a bastardized draft that had no games for the VIC kids, and being a long term developer to some degree has reduced some the associated risk. It seems risk mitigation was a strategy for that year and fair enough.

I'm not attached to it either way, I'm just of the belief that it's a bit silly to make a call on it yet. We don't know the list strategy or who was left on Libba's list at draft night. We've got Highmore and we'll get a few in the MSD. Best to hold fire till then at least..
We can agree to disagree if you like but two things I will say and then leave at at that

1. I still think 26 is a decent pick
2. I think there were better players and ones that suited our needs more at that pick.

I hope like hell I'm proven wrong and I wish nothing but the best for the kid. I'm also a fan of Liberatores drafting since he took over, I just didn't agree with this pick.
 

ScrappyDo

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We can agree to disagree if you like but two things I will say and then leave at at that

1. I still think 26 is a decent pick
2. I think there were better players and ones that suited our needs more at that pick.

I hope like hell I'm proven wrong and I wish nothing but the best for the kid. I'm also a fan of Liberatores drafting since he took over, I just didn't agree with this pick.
So we're agreed :thumbsu:
 

StCicatriz

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I didn't once say that I expected a mid to come in and impact the game straight away so I don't know why you'd even suggest that?

Obviously the recruiters thought he was the best available otherwise they wouldn't have picked him, but does that mean we all have to sit here and agree?

Have we got all out picks right in the past?

I'm happy to give the kid time, I've not once suggested he was a bust and I hope to be proven wrong and he turns out to be a great selection, but right now I will call it how I see it.

The pick made no sense to me at the time and right now he is seriously struggling at VFL level. He's a project player and he is going to take time though and I get that.

As for Allen, it's great that you watched him play at WAFL level and you think he struggled but clearly the people at West Coast didn't agree as he was playing senior footy in his first year.

18 touches and 8 marks in your 2nd game back from injury is a good start and is about the same that Allison has in all his first 3 games put together.
*struggled early. he obviously did perform given he made their best 22! our boy could do the same! at this very point of the season, allen hadn't performed! i don't think WCE supporters were writing him off and stating he should be dropped back to the reserves!

*18 disposal game in an absolute thrashing of Peel
 
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bird_man

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*struggled early. he obviously did perform given he made their best 22! our boy could do the same! at this very point of the season, allen hadn't performed! i don't think WCE supporters were writing him off and stating he should be dropped back to the reserves!

*18 disposal game in an absolute thrashing of Peel
Yes, 18 disposals and 8 marks. Even in a good win that's a good game from a kid coming off an injury lay off.

As I said, in three games Allison has had similar stats if you put them all together.

Even when we were 7 goals up he didn't look like getting himself in the game.

Same thing when we were well on top of Port.

Maybe he will show an enormous amount of improvement and get a game by the end of the year. If he does it will be a very pleasant surprise for me.

I will be happy if he can just turn himself into a competitive VFL footballer by the end of the year. As I keep saying, he's a project player with time on his hands so I'm not writing him off.
 

gringo2011

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But that’s my point Gringo. We can’t develop our players if you also have to look at satiating Sandringham and their club. It’s frankly yet another reason why supporting this club can really suck at times. We don’t have the leg up that all the other teams have when it comes to this sh*t.

I think we have turned it into the St Kida development list honestly. The name is the only link to old Sandy. It's more like the Boxhill Hawks than a true VFL club. Honestly I'd spend the money we'd spend on rebranding Sandy on a top flight recruiter.
 

gringo2011

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Not many players selected after Allison have cracked it for a game so far this season and the only really decent one that comes to mind (Gulden) was an academy pick anyway.

Poulter who a lot of us wanted has played for the Pies and looked pretty good so far. Sam Berry has played just about every game, James Rowe has played every game but is a 21 year old, Eddie Ford has played, Winder has played, Mc Creert played 4 so far, Lazzaro has played 6 etc. I can't be bothered looking up others but more than average amount of kids have been played this year.

I think the players taken tended to be more ready to go than in a regular year as clubs didn't want to take up list spots on speculative types. That's why I was surprised by Allison. He might end up being a superstar and I'll look like an absolute knob, but he was a reach in a year that not many clubs chose to do that. We have been turning over a lot of recently drafted players in the last couple years too which you'd imagine would make us a bit gun shy about going speculative.
 

pebblesofsand

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Poulter who a lot of us wanted has played for the Pies and looked pretty good so far. Sam Berry has played just about every game, James Rowe has played every game but is a 21 year old, Eddie Ford has played, Winder has played, Mc Creert played 4 so far, Lazzaro has played 6 etc. I can't be bothered looking up others but more than average amount of kids have been played this year.

I think the players taken tended to be more ready to go than in a regular year as clubs didn't want to take up list spots on speculative types. That's why I was surprised by Allison. He might end up being a superstar and I'll look like an absolute knob, but he was a reach in a year that not many clubs chose to do that. We have been turning over a lot of recently drafted players in the last couple years too which you'd imagine would make us a bit gun shy about going speculative.
Yep a few have played a few games but most are "projects" in the sense they are not starting 22 (unless they are in a team doing a complete rebuild - North/Adelaide/Collingwood.)

Aside from short term fill-in's (McKernan, Wood, Hunter) we only have Battle as an "emerging" forward and the club clearly thinks he's not a long term solution. We need another developing tall forward.

Chris Doerre had him at Pick 31, Cal Twomey had him as a possible Pick 30 - just because we'd never heard of him doesn't mean its a speculative reach.
 

bird_man

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Yep a few have played a few games but most are "projects" in the sense they are not starting 22 (unless they are in a team doing a complete rebuild - North/Adelaide/Collingwood.)

Aside from short term fill-in's (McKernan, Wood, Hunter) we only have Battle as an "emerging" forward and the club clearly thinks he's not a long term solution. We need another developing tall forward.

Chris Doerre had him at Pick 31, Cal Twomey had him as a possible Pick 30 - just because we'd never heard of him doesn't mean its a speculative reach.
I don't recall too many on here at the time suggesting that another key forward was a huge need.

Did we need key forward depth? Yes for sure, but we could have picked up a developing key forward at the back end of the draft.

Jackson Callow went undrafted. He's had a solid start in the SANFL averaging 5 marks and a goal a game.

I know we have to pretend we are all stoked with our draft every year, but I reckon a draft haul of someone like Poulter, Highmore and Callow would have been much better.

Fingers crossed I'm wrong though.
 

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