List Mgmt. 2021 Trade and List Management thread III. IN: CCJ

[pupstar]

Happy a few clubs are still interested in him.

Other clubs where always interested just where not going to cough up anything of value knowing that there was no need to.

 

[Shinboner1]

Other clubs where always interested just where not going to cough up anything of value knowing that there was no need to.

His value is negligible.
He's just the best DFA this year.

 

[pupstar]

His value is negligible.
He's just the best DFA this year.

As i said other clubs where always interested.

 

[hammer3]

I said he'll be good as a ryder cover type as main ruck, marshall plays his usual forward/ruck role.
I'm sorry you were confused.

They’ll play Marshall before they throw him in there. He’s just depth, like xerri would’ve been. He’s good in VFL and that’s it, he’s not a good cover for anyone in AFL.


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[justroyal]

“I’m definitely in that teams best 22” - are you though, Trent? Are you? Not to be stepping over the guy, but coaches don’t cut 26year olds who are shoe in for the best 22

 

[TennisPlayerAndy]

“I’m definitely in that teams best 22” - are you though, Trent? Are you? Not to be stepping over the guy, but coaches don’t cut 26year olds who are shoe in for the best 22

He’s just too vanilla with his only attribute being the ability to run all day, at an average speed.

We needed to, and did, move on.

 

[Devington]

“I’m definitely in that teams best 22” - are you though, Trent? Are you? Not to be stepping over the guy, but coaches don’t cut 26year olds who are shoe in for the best 22

I genuinely don't think it's an outrageous statement. When fit and healthy he has been best 22 for years, including this year. Unfortunately for him we now have a stable of incredibly promising, and potentially high end, midfield types so his value to us has gone down.

 

[Devington]

He’s just too vanilla with his only attribute being the ability to run all day, at an average speed.

We needed to, and did, move on.

Another physical attribute is his gut running ability on top of that endurance. The average speed part does somewhat reduce the value of it though.

Others might disagree but I'd also say his training and mentality are high end attributes too. Did a power of work to change his body composition and skillset, and happily takes on hard and relatively thankless roles.

I agree that long term it was probably the right decision to move on, though we might be proven wrong down the line.

 

[TennisPlayerAndy]

Another physical attribute is his gut running ability on top of that endurance. The average speed part does somewhat reduce the value of it though.

Others might disagree but I'd also say his training and mentality are high end attributes too. Did a power of work to change his body composition and skillset, and happily takes on hard and relatively thankless roles.

I agree that long term it was probably the right decision to move on, though we might be proven wrong down the line.

To me, gut running is just another label for endurance. The fitter you are, the more repeat efforts you can muster.

If he had better acceleration, or higher top end speed, he’d offer significantly more both offensively and defensively.

As it stands, his endurance can’t be used as an offensive weapon early in games, because he can’t create the requisite space to be used as an outlet.

As the game goes on, his superior fitness can stand out, but for 90% of the game it’s just not a significant enough point of difference.

 

[giantroo]

 

[Devington]

To me, gut running is just another label for endurance. The fitter you are, the more repeat efforts you can muster.

If he had better acceleration, or higher top end speed, he’d offer significantly more both offensively and defensively.

As it stands, his endurance can’t be used as an offensive weapon early in games, because he can’t create the requisite space to be used as an outlet.

As the game goes on, his superior fitness can stand out, but for 90% of the game it’s just not a significant enough point of difference.

I'd argue that gut running has a significant mental component attached to it as well, and that there a lot of players who should be capable of doing it more frequently but don't. I largely agree with the rest though.

 

[Heaps of fun]

I'd argue that gut running has a significant mental component attached to it as well, and that there a lot of players who should be capable of doing it more frequently but don't. I largely agree with the rest though.

If gut running means anything it's that it's pushing to run at speed when your brain says * that.

 

[Nutjob]

If you're going to cherry pick, you could say they stank for 5 decades and finally got a flag out of it. We were busy winning flags in 2 of those decades.

‘Cherry picking’…. Wtf? I was replying to someone who literally referenced Melbourne’s trajectory over the last 2 decades. Was I not suppose to compare our own form over that period and reply with something completely irrelevant?


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[LB2Snake]

Melbourne has gone to another level in the last 3 years.
Their trading and list management/draft team has been exceptional.
Any new additions to their group?
They've already made it back to the first round this year and could see them shooting up to the 20s again.
I think last year they did it to grab bowey and someone else.

I heard on SEN that a guy who was like a roofing plumber, or something like that, joined them a few years back, he’s now head of their recruiting. They have made some sensational moves, always leveraging next year against the current year. Clever.

 

[justroyal]

I genuinely don't think it's an outrageous statement. When fit and healthy he has been best 22 for years, including this year. Unfortunately for him we now have a stable of incredibly promising, and potentially high end, midfield types so his value to us has gone down.

I don’t disagree that he is a good player and has been best 22, but I do think our midfield is shaping up to be pretty hard to break into and if he wasn’t able to use his game time this year to really cement himself as a must have in nobles team. It really does show he isn’t best 22.

He is a great player and genuine awesome guy but I think it could have come across as a little belittling to our current line up. I don’t see him being a whole lot better than LDU, Simpkin, TT, Phillips, Powell. I guess we’ll see next year if we really do miss his accumulation work

 

[JarOfConfidence]

I don’t disagree that he is a good player and has been best 22, but I do think our midfield is shaping up to be pretty hard to break into and if he wasn’t able to use his game time this year to really cement himself as a must have in nobles team. It really does show he isn’t best 22.

He is a great player and genuine awesome guy but I think it could have come across as a little belittling to our current line up. I don’t see him being a whole lot better than LDU, Simpkin, TT, Phillips, Powell. I guess we’ll see next year if we really do miss his accumulation work

A genuine awesome guy - maybe. But a great player? I think that’s a fairly liberal interpretation of the word ‘great’. No time to be demeaning him, but I’d go with ‘honest but limited trier’.

 

[Shack18]

A genuine awesome guy - maybe. But a great player? I think that’s a fairly liberal interpretation of the word ‘great’. No time to be demeaning him, but I’d go with ‘honest but limited trier’.

At the end of the day North had to create space for the young kids to grow. Dumont is a very average player, we will not miss him one bit

 

[DocSholl]

“I’m definitely in that teams best 22” - are you though, Trent? Are you? Not to be stepping over the guy, but coaches don’t cut 26year olds who are shoe in for the best 22

I thought he handled that question very respectfully.

 

[RobZombie]

They stank for 2 decades and got a flag out of it. We have been mediocre for 2 decades and are at the start of a rebuild. I know which path I would rather take.

I would much rather put up with a bit more pain and get a flag out of it than being mediocre and still not knowing when our next flag is coming.


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See, I don't generally hold the same view about our prolonged 'mediocrity'. Without going into an extended screed,

1. We have a club called North Melbourne that is based at Arden St. That will never not be awesome. I watched us get pummelled by an ordinary Hawthorn team in the preseason this year and it was still awesome because I was at Arden St watching North Melbourne play footy.

2. The real damage to our chances of success this century were IMO done in the first half of the 2000s, trying to top up after the Carey era ended. The 2010s team would (probably) have been better with what we could have drafted instead of trading for Thompson, Hay, McConnell, etc.

3. After 2007, the mentality that we couldn't bottom out for commercial reasons is defensible. You can feel free to disagree with it but it's defensible. It took a while for us to be secure enough in our own place that we were comfortable bottoming out. Saying "we should have bottomed out after 2016" isn't helpful unless you can map out how, and how we would be better off. It probably amounts to trading out a Cunnington and/or Goldy for magic beans.

4. In the mid-2010s we were making finals including a couple of prelims. When you're making finals it's a natural and correct list management strategy to try and get better, not worse. We tried to do that without sacrificing draft capital and were fairly successful in the FA market.

Our drafting and trading from 2016 onwards has been decent. Our mistakes seem to be:

* Drafting Queenslanders in the 2nd round
* Should have let Freo come for Aaron Black
* Should have let Sydney come for Mason Wood
* Should have traded pick 11 for something better than Polec

I don't even disagree with any of that, but I still don't think it adds up to a transformative reshaping of the list into a flag contender right now. In general dismissing the last 20 years as aimless mediocrity is missing a lot of nuance.

 

[Shinboner1]

They’ll play Marshall before they throw him in there. He’s just depth, like xerri would’ve been. He’s good in VFL and that’s it, he’s not a good cover for anyone in AFL.


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Not if ryder is perpetually injured.

 

[7577969923]

They’ll play Marshall before they throw him in there. He’s just depth, like xerri would’ve been. He’s good in VFL and that’s it, he’s not a good cover for anyone in AFL.


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He's better than that. He is an outstanding role player on a list. Cost-effective, understands and accepts the role he plays, will perform strongly in the VFL, will be a great citizen and influence around the club, and will hold his own in ruck contests at AFL level.

 

[DunderHead]

See, I don't generally hold the same view about our prolonged 'mediocrity'. Without going into an extended screed,

1. We have a club called North Melbourne that is based at Arden St. That will never not be awesome. I watched us get pummelled by an ordinary Hawthorn team in the preseason this year and it was still awesome because I was at Arden St watching North Melbourne play footy.

2. The real damage to our chances of success this century were IMO done in the first half of the 2000s, trying to top up after the Carey era ended. The 2010s team would (probably) have been better with what we could have drafted instead of trading for Thompson, Hay, McConnell, etc.

3. After 2007, the mentality that we couldn't bottom out for commercial reasons is defensible. You can feel free to disagree with it but it's defensible. It took a while for us to be secure enough in our own place that we were comfortable bottoming out. Saying "we should have bottomed out after 2016" isn't helpful unless you can map out how, and how we would be better off. It probably amounts to trading out a Cunnington and/or Goldy for magic beans.

4. In the mid-2010s we were making finals including a couple of prelims. When you're making finals it's a natural and correct list management strategy to try and get better, not worse. We tried to do that without sacrificing draft capital and were fairly successful in the FA market.

Our drafting and trading from 2016 onwards has been decent. Our mistakes seem to be:

* Drafting Queenslanders in the 2nd round
* Should have let Freo come for Aaron Black
* Should have let Sydney come for Mason Wood
* Should have traded pick 11 for something better than Polec

I don't even disagree with any of that, but I still don't think it adds up to a transformative reshaping of the list into a flag contender right now. In general dismissing the last 20 years as aimless mediocrity is missing a lot of nuance.

don’t come here with your context.

 

[Only Forwards]

See, I don't generally hold the same view about our prolonged 'mediocrity'. Without going into an extended screed,

1. We have a club called North Melbourne that is based at Arden St. That will never not be awesome. I watched us get pummelled by an ordinary Hawthorn team in the preseason this year and it was still awesome because I was at Arden St watching North Melbourne play footy.

2. The real damage to our chances of success this century were IMO done in the first half of the 2000s, trying to top up after the Carey era ended. The 2010s team would (probably) have been better with what we could have drafted instead of trading for Thompson, Hay, McConnell, etc.

3. After 2007, the mentality that we couldn't bottom out for commercial reasons is defensible. You can feel free to disagree with it but it's defensible. It took a while for us to be secure enough in our own place that we were comfortable bottoming out. Saying "we should have bottomed out after 2016" isn't helpful unless you can map out how, and how we would be better off. It probably amounts to trading out a Cunnington and/or Goldy for magic beans.

4. In the mid-2010s we were making finals including a couple of prelims. When you're making finals it's a natural and correct list management strategy to try and get better, not worse. We tried to do that without sacrificing draft capital and were fairly successful in the FA market.

Our drafting and trading from 2016 onwards has been decent. Our mistakes seem to be:

* Drafting Queenslanders in the 2nd round
* Should have let Freo come for Aaron Black
* Should have let Sydney come for Mason Wood
* Should have traded pick 11 for something better than Polec

I don't even disagree with any of that, but I still don't think it adds up to a transformative reshaping of the list into a flag contender right now. In general dismissing the last 20 years as aimless mediocrity is missing a lot of nuance.

this is a cracking post.

if we graphed it out downward turn starts at the Geelong loss in round 12 of 2016. Copped injury after injury leading into the end of year messiness.

we dead cat bounced in 2018, with the fortune of taking Thomas.

then the downward momentum continues all the way to the lowest ebb in 49 years.

THe funny part is that because of this prolonged run at the bottom we are likely to emerge from it with the most youthful balanced talented side we have had since our last flag.

I don't think we are done at the lower end, it is difficult for spoon sides to climb out of the bottom 4. So we are looking at another decent draft hand next year and likely an alright mid season selection as well.

So all that s**t you have outline absolutely could have been handled differently but I absolutely agree it probably only serves us to buck the idea of going full rebuild. We have been down that road before. The upside of where we are now is that we have not really done what we are before. We are compiling a team full of talented kids who we previously only sparingly had access too.

This should be our lowest point and from here we build upwards.

 

[Sphynx]

this is a cracking post.

if we graphed it out downward turn starts at the Geelong loss in round 12 of 2016. Copped injury after injury leading into the end of year messiness.

we dead cat bounced in 2018, with the fortune of taking Thomas.

then the downward momentum continues all the way to the lowest ebb in 49 years.

THe funny part is that because of this prolonged run at the bottom we are likely to emerge from it with the most youthful balanced talented side we have had since our last flag.

I don't think we are done at the lower end, it is difficult for spoon sides to climb out of the bottom 4. So we are looking at another decent draft hand next year and likely an alright mid season selection as well.

So all that sh*t you have outline absolutely could have been handled differently but I absolutely agree it probably only serves us to buck the idea of going full rebuild. We have been down that road before. The upside of where we are now is that we have not really done what we are before. We are compiling a team full of talented kids who we previously only sparingly had access too.

This should be our lowest point and from here we build upwards.

I think you are right in your last point.

I think we finish bottom 5 in 2022, by which point something has seriously gone wrong if we aren't showing major improvement in 2023 with the age of the midfield group by that point.

 

[Only Forwards]

I think you are right in your last point.

I think we finish bottom 5 in 2022, by which point something has seriously gone wrong if we aren't showing major improvement in 2023 with the age of the midfield group by that point.

I think no limits on where they could get to next year but no expectations either.

We could bounce hard from this year. Looks like we have a lot of driven boys who seem to all have the same thing for this off season, get fit as f***. So who knows what he outcome of that will be.