List Mgmt. 2021 Trade Targets

Remove this Banner Ad

Marshall does not have a big enough body to be a number 1 key forward.

He’s 197cm 22 years old and barely had a preseason due to family tragedies and injury.
He’s already competing well enough at this level, what happens if, like 90% of afl footballers he grows into his physical prime between 24-30?

We’ve tried drafting plenty of “big bodies” before. How did they work out as key forwards?

I’ll stick with bloke who can play until we magically unearth the next warren.

He's never taken more than 3 contested marks in a game and has only achieved that once.
What?

Looking at the stats he’s gotten 2 heaps of times. Most superstars only manage a few 3’s pre-50 games so it’s not like they’re leaving Marshall in their dust.

Dixon averages 2.6 a game compared to Marshall's 1.4.


Dixon is a 30yr old 203cm 107kg monster at his physical peak and is 3rd in the afl for contested marks and the 2nd kf on the list.

What a stupid comparison.

Jammara ugle-Hagan (0) and MacDonald (0.3) also average way less than dixon.. spud delist or just a bad comparison to use a seasoned contested marking league leader to a sub 50 game player?

you know who else is averaging 1.4 or less?

kennedy daniher hipwood and Ben king. Marshall was averaging around 1.7 until he got knocked out in the opening minutes of the cats game, which brought his total down.
More importantly though Marshall is not someone you can trust to outmark their opponent when isolated 1v1. He doesn't have the size strength or style to be that player.

Marshall has outmarked an opponent one on one a bunch of times this season. In fact when he’s been one on one he’s been hugely dangerous. Hell, the Vicbias commentary has lost their s**t suggesting that Marshall has used pushing (as if Riewoldt and Hawkins haven’t built careers out of the same thing as the main thing in their toolkit) when he’s beaten his opponent one on one quite a few times this season.


So for a traditional key forward we either hope Marshall becomes something he's shown no evidence of being so far or we pin our hopes on a 19 yr old.
Marshalls already shown evidence of being at the very least a decent / good key forward, the only question is what kind of improvement can we expect from here? Worst case we’ve got a functioning kf who can do a role until we draft another one rather than bomb for years asking mids to kick onto the heads of short people so it can sail immediately back over their heads and crush their souls.

Georgiades is tracking very well.

We’ve done very well to draft and develop two key forwards.

Hell the best our forward line has ever functioned was earlier in the year we stuck Marshall and Georgiades in the forward line without Dixon and we had key forwards leading into space taking marks in front of them. It was glorious.

I accept Ladhams has been sh*t forward so far. I think this can be changed if he stops focusing on being a ruck first and spends the off season training as a forward though - we've seen his ceiling in that role is promising. For reference Ladhams has taken 4 contested marks twice from only 23 games. Just needs to learn to be a forward and let hayes be our next ruck.
Ladhams just doesn’t have any kind of forward craft. I’m surprised that you have written off Marshall but argue ladhams can improve (in an area he is beyond bad at)

As a forward ladhams is height + athleticism + ground skills. Enough not to be a liability down there but would never want to build around him as a key forward.

His best position Is in ruck.

As for his 4 contested marks, that was great. He averages less than marshall but had a couple of good contested marking games.

They didn’t come as a forward tho, they were in games we played him as the number 1 ruck.

Rucks often get high numbers of contested marks, due to being targeted by kick outs / down the line kicks 1000 times a game + being tall + floating forward or back from ruck and getting insane mismatches.

Rucks (many of whom are not a key forwards arsehole) dominate the contested marking stats.
 
Last edited:
Are we looking for another piece of the jigsaw?? we have been getting them for years now and we are still going backwards.
There is one common denominator here?????
Modern day Port is that 10,000 piece jigsaw puzzle you got from nana at Xmas. Promise every year that this is year you’ll put it together, then boom the next Xmas is upon you, then the next and the next. Rinse and repeat.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Most superstars only manage a few 3’s pre-50 games so it’s not like they’re leaving Marshall in their dust.

As he's just breaking out and had a disrupted first few years lets compare him to Harry Mckay up to his similar time in the system. Drafted 1 year earlier than marshall he had 7 games with over 3 contest marks a game to the end of last year (48 games) and had also had a peak of 6 CMs. That is evidence of a high ceiling - a player with potential who will develop into a traditional key forward and has done so this year. That's what I'm looking for in Marshall that I'm not seeing.

Oscar allen, Aaron naughton, harry mckay, ben and max king etc are his contemporaries that have shown/are showing greater potential in their first 50 games.

Georgiades is the one who is likely to join the above names / another generation of younger kpf like Thilthorpe, JUH and McDonald if they develop successfully. I agree that he is tracking brilliantly at the moment, just dont think we can rely on him soon.

My whole post is around what we do post-dixon. That is why I made the comparison between Marshalls CMs to his - not because thats where he should be but because that's the difference in output our team will see from our leading KPF. It would be a big drop off.

Right now Ladhams is a s**t forward but I'm attributing that to training as a ruck primarily. You dont get good at something without training and practice - that's what he needs more of.

Oh and rucks dont dominate the contested mark stat, other than gawn at #1 its KPFs that do (only 3 rucks avg 2+ CMs/game from over 5 games, compared to 11 KPFs).
 
Going to be interesting what we do with our rucks I reckon scotter has 4yrs after this yr where does that leave Hayes?
 
Going to be interesting what we do with our rucks I reckon scotter has 4yrs after this yr where does that leave Hayes?
Hayes should be number one ruck starting next season.

Lycett and Ladhams will have to battle it out for the 2nd ruck spot.
 
As he's just breaking out and had a disrupted first few years lets compare him to Harry Mckay up to his similar time in the system. Drafted 1 year earlier than marshall he had 7 games with over 3 contest marks a game to the end of last year (48 games) and had also had a peak of 6 CMs. That is evidence of a high ceiling - a player with potential who will develop into a traditional key forward and has done so this year. That's what I'm looking for in Marshall that I'm not seeing.
I mean Harry McKay is a contested marking beast who has exactly one trick. Contested marking. And he’s only just exploded in his 23rd year, being a year and around 20 games further along than Todd and had none of the setbacks costing him a couple of preseasons that Todd did. A lot of people had Harry written off not too long ago actually.

Mackay and Todd are pretty different players. Todd’s playing a chf role at the moment. He doesn’t need to be a Harry level contested mark to be very good. He’s got other tricks.

Oscar allen, Aaron naughton, harry mckay, ben and max king etc are his contemporaries that have shown/are showing greater potential in their first 50 games.

that’s only 5 players (in an 18 team league) and they’re widely considered to be superstar young guns and all high draft picks with four of them being top 12 from memory. If you know where we can pick up someone like that laying around let me know. Does Marshall have to be a top 5 kpf in the league to not be considered a failure?

How well do players like spp drew and duursma compare to Rowell, Oliver, Walsh, parish and mcluggage? Not very well at all. You don’t write players off cause they don’t stack up to the top few.

My whole post is around what we do post-dixon. That is why I made the comparison between Marshalls CMs to his - not because thats where he should be but because that's the difference in output our team will see from our leading KPF. It would be a big drop off.
By the time dixon has left we will have at least another year and a half into Marshall and Georgiades and another 20-35 games into each of them. Lord is another year older and we have had a look at what he can do.

we also may not have to rely on a single kf taking contested marks galore to kick goals. A lot of clubs don’t. Actually most of them don’t.

as I said in my earlier post I saw us try a Georgiades and Marshall forward line without Dixon and we actually had key forwards leading into space and marking the ball in front of them. Something Dixon is allergic to doing. It was the most functional I remember seeing a port forward line.

We are way way better stocked to replace Dixon than we are to replace boak and gray or Jonas whose replacement isn’t yet on the list.

Right now Ladhams is a sh*t forward but I'm attributing that to training as a ruck primarily. You dont get good at something without training and practice - that's what he needs more of.
Ladhams spent the first 2 seasons of his career at the magpies as a pure forward. Didn’t get near the ruck and was on the delist pile until moved into ruck and showing something. He’s spent as much of his time at port training and playing forward as ruck.

Oh and rucks dont dominate the contested mark stat, other than gawn at #1 its KPFs that do (only 3 rucks avg 2+ CMs/game from over 5 games, compared to 11 KPFs).
Yeah they do, there’s just fewer rucks in the league seeing as most teams play 1 with the occasional 2nd, while teams play 2/3 kpfs.

Matt Flynn (2.3) Darcy Cameron (2.4) McEvoy (1.8) rob (1.8) Gawn (2.9) r.Marshall (3.0)

for example have super high contested mark averages.

As I said, rucks are often the target on kick outs (at both ends so what 10-25 times a game?) and targets of down the line kicks which probably happens 20-40 times a game.

how many times a game are key forwards kicked to?
I don’t think measuring the fact that ladhams got 4 contested marks twice in his career (in the ruck) means that ladhams can become the better kf.

Ladhams only has 6 contested marks for the year btw cause he took * all when we played him as a 2nd ruck and he was in the forward line. In fact I think he’s taken all 6 of those contested marks since lycett went out so took no contested marks as a kf / 2nd ruck.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

I think we need to be aggressive in the FA trade space given the demographic of the list. Some older players plus plenty of young ones and a bit bare in the middle.

Merrett would be awesome obviously as he costs nothing. I think the chances of this are far less than what they were at the start of the year, but its not over yet.

Do we look at players like Narkle (as a mid), Lemmens (small back)? Wouldnt cost much.

We also need make a call on Ladhams and Hayes. I dont think Hayes hangs around next year if hes told hes third in line and i dont blame him. Does one of Ladhams or Hayes get us another first round pick? I think so given the way ruckman are in demand.
 
I think we need to be aggressive in the FA trade space given the demographic of the list. Some older players plus plenty of young ones and a bit bare in the middle.

Merrett would be awesome obviously as he costs nothing. I think the chances of this are far less than what they were at the start of the year, but its not over yet.

Do we look at players like Narkle (as a mid), Lemmens (small back)? Wouldnt cost much.

We also need make a call on Ladhams and Hayes. I dont think Hayes hangs around next year if hes told hes third in line and i dont blame him. Does one of Ladhams or Hayes get us another first round pick? I think so given the way ruckman are in demand.
Merrett or a player of merretts quality in the 22-27 age bracket fills a need but will be very hard to attract

a player of narkles or lemmons quality ie 25-35 on our list doesn’t fill a need at all.

I would hate to make a call on trading ladhams or Hayes at the end of this year. That’s why we should have gotten a game into Hayes this past month.

I don’t think we would get a first rounder for ladhams or Hayes. Not even close. Probably a pick around 20- 40 would be on the table for ladhams depending on what a team that wanted him had on hand and a pick 30-40 might be on offer for Hayes.

both would be very bad trades that send us backwards unless we assume Parker drafts way better than the odds at that pick.

Ladhams has some freak attributes for a ruck and enough time before his prime to become a better ruck. Hayes is a great tap ruck and around the ground marking threat that I think would benefit us more. I want to keep Hayes more than anything. I think he can carry a midfield as we’re seeing in the magpies. I don’t want to let go of ladhams unless we get a deal that absolutely improves our team (a second rounder is too much of a gamble) and if Hayes is committed to staying here beyond his next contract is something that would need to be 100% before trading Pete.
 
Merrett or a player of merretts quality in the 22-27 age bracket fills a need but will be very hard to attract

a player of narkles or lemmons quality ie 25-35 on our list doesn’t fill a need at all.

I would hate to make a call on trading ladhams or Hayes at the end of this year. That’s why we should have gotten a game into Hayes this past month.

I don’t think we would get a first rounder for ladhams or Hayes. Not even close. Probably a pick around 20- 40 would be on the table for ladhams depending on what a team that wanted him had on hand and a pick 30-40 might be on offer for Hayes.

both would be very bad trades that send us backwards unless we assume Parker drafts way better than the odds at that pick.

Ladhams has some freak attributes for a ruck and enough time before his prime to become a better ruck. Hayes is a great tap ruck and around the ground marking threat that I think would benefit us more. I want to keep Hayes more than anything. I think he can carry a midfield as we’re seeing in the magpies. I don’t want to let go of ladhams unless we get a deal that absolutely improves our team (a second rounder is too much of a gamble) and if Hayes is committed to staying here beyond his next contract is something that would need to be 100% before trading Pete.

Fair call. I disagree on Lemmens and Narkle. I admit they are not walk up starts, nor are they world beaters, but Lemmens fills a small quick defender need (which we dont have) and Narkle has upside as an inside mid in my opinion. I guess its all about opinions though.

I agree i would prefer to keep Hayes over Ladhams if it came to a choice.
 
Fair call. I disagree on Lemmens and Narkle. I admit they are not walk up starts, nor are they world beaters, but Lemmens fills a small quick defender need (which we dont have) and Narkle has upside as an inside mid in my opinion. I guess its all about opinions though.

I agree i would prefer to keep Hayes over Ladhams if it came to a choice.
Dbj, jones (not small but every bit as quick) Frederick, burton, Houston (tho a bit different type), Bergman, Burgoyne has often played back as a junior and may spend some time developing there. Bonner :( . Farrell was a defender as a junior but we’re trying to develop him as a forward / wing. Duursma can go back. Mayes was a running defender at Brisbane but we’ve turned him into a mid cause we don’t need another defender.

I think saying we don’t have a quick small defender is a bit inaccurate.

I think lemmons just falls into the 25-35 part of our list. Would be great for the magpies!

narkles inside mid ability? Our need is a number 1 inside clearance winning beast who can rack up 5+ clearances a game for life after boak / gray / Rocky.

We definitely don’t need a supplemental clearance Winner. We’ve got drew spp butters to do that. Those guys should be around another better clearance winner. I don’t want narkle in the centre before any of those guys (and Houston duursma rozee and so on)
 
Dbj, jones (not small but every bit as quick) Frederick, burton, Houston (tho a bit different type), Bergman, Burgoyne has often played back as a junior and may spend some time developing there. Bonner :( . Farrell was a defender as a junior but we’re trying to develop him as a forward / wing. Duursma can go back. Mayes was a running defender at Brisbane but we’ve turned him into a mid cause we don’t need another defender.

I think saying we don’t have a quick small defender is a bit inaccurate.

I think lemmons just falls into the 25-35 part of our list. Would be great for the magpies!

narkles inside mid ability? Our need is a number 1 inside clearance winning beast who can rack up 5+ clearances a game for life after boak / gray / Rocky.

We definitely don’t need a supplemental clearance Winner. We’ve got drew spp butters to do that. Those guys should be around another better clearance winner. I don’t want narkle in the centre before any of those guys (and Houston duursma rozee and so on)
We need a Libba, Lyons, Mundy, Greenwood type.

I get the feeling the best place to find one of those will be at a club misusing one as a halfback flanker (see essendon & parish).

The three I can think of off the top of my head are SPS, Stocker & Dow at Carlton. There must be more floating about somewhere. Given the depth of their midfielder, the Dogs and Geelong may have one in the two's that can be raided.
 
We need a Libba, Lyons, Mundy, Greenwood type.
Yes i agree.


I get the feeling the best place to find one of those will be at a club misusing one as a halfback flanker (see essendon & parish).
I doubt it.

Occasionally a team unearths a good inside mid through trade but that’s really once in a while thing. As in once every now and then 1/18 teams manages to nab one.

Teams find them most often by drafting them.

The three I can think of off the top of my head are SPS, Stocker & Dow at Carlton. There must be more floating about somewhere. Given the depth of their midfielder, the Dogs and Geelong may have one in the two's that can be raided.

SPS stocker and Dow look absolutely nothing like the players you named at the top of your post.

In neither quality or style.
SPS is a middling flanker. Dow was drafted on potential in a poor draft and busted. Stocker hasn’t done anything yet and blues wouldn’t give him up until he’s either shown something or failed cause of what they gave up to get him.

Our best bet is the draft. The best quick solution is to throw money at Jacob hopper but he’s a giant or going back to vic most likely and would also cost heaps to trade for.
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Back
Top