List Mgmt. 2021 Trade Thread - Part I

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Delisted;
-

Traded;
-

Retired;
Jake Carlisle
Shaun McKernan

Current Players Out of Contract;
3. Zak Jones - Link
6. Sebastian Ross (RFA) - Link
7. Luke Dunstan (RFA) - Link
13. Jack Lonie - Link
15. Jack Billings (RFA) - Link
18. Patrick Ryder - Link
24. James Frawley - Link
25. Dean Kent - Link
38. Oscar Clavarino - Link
39. Darragh Joyce - Link
41. Paul Hunter - Link
42. Max Heath - Link
45. Sam Alabakis - Link


To see the full list (it gets updated regularly) visit this thread;

www.bigfooty.com

List & Contract Status

SENIOR LIST 1. Jack Higgins 2. Marcus Windhager 3. Zak Jones 4. Lance Collard 5. Brad Crouch 6. Sebastian Ross 7. Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera 8. Bradley Hill 9. Jack Steele 10. Mitchito Owens 11. Hunter Clark 12. Max King 13. Ryan Byrnes 14. Liam Stocker 15. Paddy Dow 16. Daniel Butler 17. Isaac...
www.bigfooty.com www.bigfooty.com
 
Bill Mohr said:
English is going pretty well and love to have him and Marshall together. Lipinski is being chased by several clubs i believe. He would be handy in our midfield as well. Young is a big defender out of contract this year. No idea how good he is and have not heard of Green.
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Would you pick them infront of Marshall..? Because the bulldogs did
 
PandaG said:
It’s crazy how we get hung up on ‘who we missed’ and not focus on ‘who we got’
Yeah we missed on Bont but in 2016 18 other clubs missed on Marshall.

I am positive the bulldogs would have loved to pick him instead of
Tim English
Patrick Lipinski
Lewis Young
Fergus Green
View attachment 1183619
Click to expand...
Add to that getting Wilkie and Sinclair as rookies. Where would they be drafted now? Swings and roundabouts.
 
PandaG said:
Would you pick them infront of Marshall..? Because the bulldogs did
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If you compared Marshall and English careers they are very similar based on the stats evidence, which is not everything but when making comparisons you have to do it. English has kicked 14 goals this year so he is no mug. But was dropped I think for 3/4 games,
 

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The problem with Billings he 'looks' the epitomy of vanilla.

A couple of years back v Carlton he had 30 and kicked 5 and I could hardly remember anything he did.

One of those players that are totally unnoticed, but take out his contribution, the team performance suffers.

I would like Billing sto be there when we are top 4, his input is undervalued because he is not flashy. Like Dunstan, in a better team he looks better and his contributionwould be invaluable.

Like to keep him, but if someone offers him the equilivent of a band 1, I wouldn't match.
 
stavro#4 said:
He is actually a confident guy among the group. Confident in his ability etc etc.

He is a good player.

but in the make up of our list and our aspirations. He isn’t worth 700k+ to us.

for someone like North he is, as they have no one else to pay and you must use your cap across 3 years.

we are at the point where, Steele is a star and he is getting 650k. We need to re up him next year. We need to bring in others to get better etc.

It starts getting very tight
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IMO it'll be a shame to lose him, especially as one of our home-grown talents. (OK I'll admit its a little sentimental )
However, I am loathe to get into a situation where any single player is overpaid. Certainly shouldn't be paid more than Steele anyway. Much rather be in a place where the players sacrifice a little for the good of the team, much like the Cats and Hawks did to create a successful period for the club.
 
El HOSS said:
I tend to agree with the WCE or like team concern, but the reality is that good teams make hard calls for success. I just hope we don't make a decision based on a fear of looking like idiots for letting him go. The decision needs to be cold and calculated. What's his output vs. his cost. His output is lower this year, likely due to injury and other factors but hes costing a fortune and his current deal, if it is around 650-700, is prohibitive to us going forward as guys that are more important need to be paid more. So he needs to take a lot less or significantly less otherwise the pick is probably better value long term and will help us attract more important players or retain the same.

It doesn't help that Jack's seemingly been overpaid for some time.
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I more hope we don't * up the pick like we did for McEvoy, Dal, Goddard, Stanley and just about every other player we let go for "improving" our list. Libba seems to have been good with his bin pickings but these ones carry an extra loading for having to get them right.
 
Diehard Saint said:
IMO it'll be a shame to lose him, especially as one of our home-grown talents. (OK I'll admit its a little sentimental )
However, I am loathe to get into a situation where any single player is overpaid. Certainly shouldn't be paid more than Steele anyway. Much rather be in a place where the players sacrifice a little for the good of the team, much like the Cats and Hawks did to create a successful period for the club.
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Gut feeling is that in a few years we will have a cap where the cream of our list sits at that 650/700k mark.

allows wiggle room for free agents.
 
PandaG said:
It’s crazy how we get hung up on ‘who we missed’ and not concerned trade on ‘who we got’
Yeah we missed on Bont but in 2016 18 other clubs missed on Marshall.

I am positive the bulldogs would have loved to pick him instead of
Tim English
Patrick Lipinski
Lewis Young
Fergus Green
View attachment 1183619
Click to expand...
It's certainly true that we've nailed some late/rookie selections, but that does not mitigate our misses with top end selections. You need both. Those lower end bargains (Marshall, Wilkie, Sinclair, Byrnes etc) are important, and I hope they can drive us to be a top end side, but the club has had a significant problem for a long time in terms of nailing our high picks and it is crucial. Most premiership sides (particularly dynasties) have an integral core of players who were high draft selections. It can't be written off as win some lose some, when premiership sides hit both their high draft picks and also find some great low picks/rookies. Richmond for example got Lambert, Short, Grimes, Baker and Broad as later/rookie selections and all were critical parts of their success. Hawthorn did it with Stratton, Mitchell, Breust, Shiels and Sewell. The difference is those clubs had a core of elite high draft picks as well.

The majority of clubs can point to some rookie/late selections and be happy with some smokies that have been great. That's important and necessary to succeed, but so too is nailing some high picks. The reason we have had to resort to trading our way to be a decent side is because we have not had enough elite players come through our drafting and development to lift us up. Billings, Dunstan, Acres, McCartin, Goddard, McKenzie, Gresham, Clark and Coffield are players the club has invested in and as a group, they have not delivered what has been needed. The latter three are still young and certainly could become the players we need, but ultimately, our high end drafting has been quite poor for a long time, and it has cost the club dearly.
 
gringo2011 said:
I more hope we don't fu** up the pick like we did for McEvoy, Dal, Goddard, Stanley and just about every other player we let go for "improving" our list. Libba seems to have been good with his bin pickings but these ones carry an extra loading for having to get them right.
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When you nail ass end picks. Like Marshall and Wilkie + Byrnes and Connolly look good at the minute.

it takes the pressure off nailing your first picks. However these are the picks that when you nail them - you get the real benefits.
 
Ducky Tie said:
Billings' development has been pretty ordinary over the past few years really. For quite a few years now, there has been a shift in how he plays. He came in as a player who maximised his impact per possession. His 20 touches in a game were genuinely damaging. He had a dangerous kick going inside 50 and he was crafty. He's became a very low impact player. He's clearly playing injured the past few months, so I'm not talking about that form, but more so his 2019-2020 form. He's certainly not a bad player. He is a good winger who will get his 20-25 touches a week, but he lacks potency. I can't remember the last time I thought he picked a team apart with his kicking. He has developed into a safe kicker who rarely tries to pull off kicks to open up the game. He is a bit of a tram-tracks player. He'll get it via an uncontested mark or handball receive and go down the line or continue on the path it came from. He very rarely changes the angles and cuts across the ground, which is something he used to do particularly effectively.

It's a pity, when you compare him to someone like Karl Amon at Port. When we were interested in Amon a few years ago, he was someone I pretty much thought of as being a lesser version of Billings. Their stats still read relatively similarly, but Amon has developed into a high impact player. He has a penetrating kick, he cuts up the angles and he spends regular time starting as a genuine midfielder.

The responsibility must lie with Billings and the club, but I'm no longer fussed about what happens after this year. He is a player I like and is clearly a lock in our best team, particularly at full fitness. He isn't someone you build around though. I'd be more than happy to keep him at a reasonable price, but I won't be devastated if he goes either.
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Amon seems to be brave and take the game on. Billings is definitely head of the beige brigade. Never makes a mistake and rarely does anything stupid but lacks dare and bravery in his decision making. We looked at our best in the last month where we did high risk stuff that came off. In the Port game they definitely seemed to go into safety first mode which seems to be the same mode that we chose late in games and get pegged back.

The risky stuff seems to adrenalize them, when they play safe the seem to go to sleep.
 
Remboy said:
Add to that getting Wilkie and Sinclair as rookies. Where would they be drafted now? Swings and roundabouts.
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Still rather Bont to be honest.
 
Ducky Tie said:
It's a pity, when you compare him to someone like Karl Amon at Port. When we were interested in Amon a few years ago, he was someone I pretty much thought of as being a lesser version of Billings. Their stats still read relatively similarly, but Amon has developed into a high impact player. He has a penetrating kick, he cuts up the angles and he spends regular time starting as a genuine midfielder.
Click to expand...
Amon is another one of those guys who we make look like a superstar, decent player but his output against other sides is nothing like when he plays against us for whatever reason… add him to Cal Sinclair & Jimmy 'lethal-leigh' Harmes.

Last week would have to be his greatest game of his career, 26 disposals, 2 goals, 10 tackles, closely followed by his game against us in round 6 - 34 touches, 15 marks - obscene numbers and not his normal game.

Amon is a nice half back/winger but I prefer Billings playing more forward… he had 67 shots at goal in 2017… fair effort.
 

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gringo2011 said:
Amon seems to be brave and take the game on. Billings is definitely head of the beige brigade. Never makes a mistake and rarely does anything stupid but lacks dare and bravery in his decision making. We looked at our best in the last month where we did high risk stuff that came off. In the Port game they definitely seemed to go into safety first mode which seems to be the same mode that we chose late in games and get pegged back.

The risky stuff seems to adrenalize them, when they play safe the seem to go to sleep.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. Good kicking is an infectious thing as well. When a few players hit their kicks early, it generally sets a tone for the day where the group's confidence is high and they hit them all day - that was clear in the Brisbane game where we kicked the ball better than we have all year. Polar opposite to the Melbourne game earlier in the year where they clearly got nervous about their kicks and butchered it all day. Billings is the extreme case of the latter, where he pretty much never has games where he tries to bite off ambitious kicks to open up the game.
 
stavro#4 said:
When you nail ass end picks. Like Marshall and Wilkie + Byrnes and Connolly look good at the minute.

it takes the pressure off nailing your first picks. However these are the picks that when you nail them - you get the real benefits.
Click to expand...


Yeah I think there was a tweet saying that we haven't drafted an AA for 18 years or something the worst record of any side since drafts began. Absolute self harm when you don't nail at least one in every three. That's your real premium zone. Dees got better when they started nailing high draft picks, Oliver, Petracca etc are guns. Dogs -Bont, Mcrae, Smith etc, that is just about every side in AFL where you best come from the front end of the draft.

Our real win was getting Steele out of GWS before he came good. He's probably the best player to come out of them now and the've lost some good ones. Not often elite players come from other clubs. Hope Clark and King come on and it's the start of the turn around.
 
kernelT said:
Amon is another one of those guys who we make look like a superstar, decent player but his output against other sides is nothing like when he plays against us for whatever reason… add him to Cal Sinclair & Jimmy 'lethal-leigh' Harmes.

Last week would have to be his greatest game of his career, 26 disposals, 2 goals, 10 tackles, closely followed by his game against us in round 6 - 34 touches, 15 marks - obscene numbers and not his normal game.

Amon is a nice half back/winger but I prefer Billings playing more forward… he had 67 shots at goal in 2017… fair effort.
Click to expand...
Amon has developed into a really good player. He'd be right up there in Port's best and fairest and it certainly wasn't a one off. Eight time this year he has been in the coaches votes. I watch him a fair bit, and he is a player who takes the game on and has a real impact. He's become a player who spends almost half the match playing as a genuine starting midfielder too - certainly not just a half back/winger. Billings having 70 shots four years ago has lost relevancy when he hasn't played that role ever since/hasn't looked that dangerous ever since.
 
kernelT said:
Amon is another one of those guys who we make look like a superstar, decent player but his output against other sides is nothing like when he plays against us for whatever reason… add him to Cal Sinclair & Jimmy 'lethal-leigh' Harmes.

Last week would have to be his greatest game of his career, 26 disposals, 2 goals, 10 tackles, closely followed by his game against us in round 6 - 34 touches, 15 marks - obscene numbers and not his normal game.

Amon is a nice half back/winger but I prefer Billings playing more forward… he had 67 shots at goal in 2017… fair effort.
Click to expand...


He turned into a legit excellent player the last 2 years. He's no Callum Sinclair. The Final Siren player ratings have him at the 23rd best player in the league. It isn't loaded against past seasons like others so has Steele at number 1 in the comp.
 
Ducky Tie said:
Amon has developed into a really good player. He'd be right up there in Port's best and fairest and it certainly wasn't a one off. Eight time this year he has been in the coaches votes. I watch him a fair bit, and he is a player who takes the game on and has a real impact. He's become a player who spends almost half the match playing as a genuine starting midfielder too - certainly not just a half back/winger. Billings having 70 shots four years ago has lost relevancy when he hasn't played that role ever since/hasn't looked that dangerous ever since.
Click to expand...


Only Wines in front of him if you go off the ratings.
 
gringo2011 said:
Amon seems to be brave and take the game on. Billings is definitely head of the beige brigade. Never makes a mistake and rarely does anything stupid but lacks dare and bravery in his decision making. We looked at our best in the last month where we did high risk stuff that came off. In the Port game they definitely seemed to go into safety first mode which seems to be the same mode that we chose late in games and get pegged back.

The risky stuff seems to adrenalize them, when they play safe the seem to go to sleep.
Click to expand...
The general observation is that saints dont handle pressure well. As kingy said, you need our big time players to step up in these situations. Players such as Hill, Crouch, Membrey. I would not include Billings in that group. A few years ago maybe when he was playing more forward.
 
gringo2011 said:
Yeah I think there was a tweet saying that we haven't drafted an AA for 18 years or something the worst record of any side since drafts began. Absolute self harm when you don't nail at least one in every three. That's your real premium zone. Dees got better when they started nailing high draft picks, Oliver, Petracca etc are guns. Dogs -Bont, Mcrae, Smith etc, that is just about every side in AFL where you best come from the front end of the draft.

Our real win was getting Steele out of GWS before he came good. He's probably the best player to come out of them now and the've lost some good ones. Not often elite players come from other clubs. Hope Clark and King come on and it's the start of the turn around.
Click to expand...
We got 5 out of that 2017 draft, Coffield was a no 8 pick , we got Paton late and have also got Higgins from the tigers who was 17 pick. Claverino as well Probably say by weight of numbers we did Ok but I think we could have done better. Easy to say now though. Naughton, Brayshaw, Liam,LDU, sam taylor maybe the best of them.
 
Bill Mohr said:
If you compared Marshall and English careers they are very similar based on the stats evidence, which is not everything but when making comparisons you have to do it. English has kicked 14 goals this year so he is no mug. But was dropped I think for 3/4 games,
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Not sure he was dropped?

He did miss a chunk of games through concussion and a facial injury.

It's also worth noting that Marshall is 2 years older than English.

I doubt the dogs are losing any sleep there, English looks like a quality player.
 
gringo2011 said:
He turned into a legit excellent player the last 2 years. He's no Callum Sinclair. The Final Siren player ratings have him at the 23rd best player in the league. It isn't loaded against past seasons like others so has Steele at number 1 in the comp.
Click to expand...
It also has:
Lyons #8
Laird #13
Keays #14
Ziebel #17
Seedsman #29
Hall #36
Ed Curnow #44
Hind #49
Jordan Dawson (Sorry Who?) #55

And the mighty Jack Billings @ #72

Amon is rated elite in uncontested possessions, marks, metres gained and behinds… good player, but not really a 'genuine mid' IMO who need to win the footy, the seagullls clear out when he's in the area.
 
Bill Mohr said:
If you compared Marshall and English careers they are very similar based on the stats evidence, which is not everything but when making comparisons you have to do it. English has kicked 14 goals this year so he is no mug. But was dropped I think for 3/4 games,
Click to expand...

I prefer the eye test to any statistical analysis.

Stats can be padded & are heavily influenced by the style of game a team plays.

Roma has a much greater influence on games that English currently does. He’s our 2nd best/most important player behind Steele in my book.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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