World Cup 2022 FIFA World Cup - Group D - (France, Australia, Denmark, Tunisia)

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Blue1980

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Yet people are paying a premium for rather meh talent at times in AFL. Australia is a spoilt country. Parade and go crazy over stars that hardly get a million a year and is exploited significantly by the AFL corporation. You’d think for all the money AFL gets for TV rights it has a higher wage, standard? Not particularly.

Football is taken for granted here. Australia has multicultural backgrounds yet is often pushed into the wog territory whenever possible.

Guess what? You know Barassi campaigning for MCG? Funny that. It’s a cricket ground by name and by operation. Not MFG, it’s MCG.
Hosted the Olympics in 1956, forced to shorten their season for Sydney 2000, considered Rugby league city. But for a World Cup, the biggest event on earth? Please.
AFL know full well football’s popularity dwarfs theirs, given the obsession to expand in Western Sydney
Wot? I think we know where AFL stands in the world scheme of things, no one else cares about it except us, but its imbedded in our culture and we love it, and that isn't going to change. Watching Carlton play a big match I am not thinking about how its perceived internationally, or players from other codes earn more in a week than our stars make in a year, I don't care.

I don't think soccer is really wog territory now, its a popular sport in Australia. The issue we have is we have a domestic league that doesn't capture the imagination of the wider public (and has gotten less so over time), but that is largely due to the fact people know in the scheme of things its a low standard, and the sides feel like franchises just plonked wherever rather than any real identities.

As an example if you took any of the England big 6 and had them playing all their home matches say at the MCG for a season (put the logistics of travel etc aside) I think they'd all average at least 50-60k, probably get 90+ for games against big european and/or english sides.

The audience is there, just people aren't enthused about domestic Australian soccer.
 

Topkent

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I think if you just had Victoria on the world stage and as passionate about soccer as we are about Aussie rules, and replaced money/funding etc from AFL to soccer, we'd be a force internationally, probably top 15.

Thing is we did produce world class players from around 1990 till around 2005, so we know it can be done. Soccer wasn't higher in the scheme of things then, if anything was in more of a mess domestically in terms of league structure etc than it is now.

With the a-league we seems to just produce a whole lot of mediocre professional journeyman players.
People are completely ignoring the obvious here. In alot of sports we were able to punch above our weight in that era because with the AIS and other things we moved into the professional era quicker than most countries. Now every country uses sports science and fitness and professionalism it's an even playing field.
 

Proffessor

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Yet people are paying a premium for rather meh talent at times in AFL. Australia is a spoilt country. Parade and go crazy over stars that hardly get a million a year and is exploited significantly by the AFL corporation. You’d think for all the money AFL gets for TV rights it has a higher wage, standard? Not particularly.

Football is taken for granted here. Australia has multicultural backgrounds yet is often pushed into the wog territory whenever possible.

Guess what? You know Barassi campaigning for MCG? Funny that. It’s a cricket ground by name and by operation. Not MFG, it’s MCG.
Hosted the Olympics in 1956, forced to shorten their season for Sydney 2000, considered Rugby league city. But for a World Cup, the biggest event on earth? Please.
AFL know full well football’s popularity dwarfs theirs, given the obsession to expand in Western Sydney
You are exhibiting a classic case of soccer\football supremacy derangement syndrome and effectively illustrating my point.

You are essentially calling people stupid for watching AFL without justification, as if it is simply obvious. You attempt to undermine it only by ridiculing its salaries. It is a meaningless and irrational argument, which is completely counterproductive to your cause.

Why do you have to compare soccer with AFL?

You should also be a bit careful with such comparisons because in terms of physical talent, the AFL currently takes the cream of Australia's crop. A great example is the Kerr family from WA. Sam Kerr is clearly one of the world's best female soccer players, in spite of coming from down under, don't forget her similarly physically gifted brother played AFL.
 

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Proffessor

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Nah, no fluke, its a World Cup made of the best from each federation, not the best 32 teams in the world.
We’ve qualified 5 straight, unsurprisingly better record since we moved into Asia as we simply play more games that mean something.

What is true is that the numbers at youth level are there, but the quality is simply not emerging. I reckon it’s targeted elite development rather than lacking quality and potential. What would I do?

I’d have created youth academies in each major city and establish the 6-7 clubs as per Olympic rules (only 3 over 23yo) with a second club in each major city for more senior squads. Makes a 12 or 14 team national comp.
Drill the youth constantly, challenge them in games every week that matter, create competition amongst youth to get in the shop window. Generate interest in these teams through national drafts maybe and get some media time.

Align them with overseas teams if there is interest, like Man City are now. Or make them Red Bull teams and link with Austria and Germany. Who cares? Link them into the World game at every turn.

The best of the youth (All Australian team?) to go on overseas tours in off season playing friendlies wherever you can find them.

The other thing I’d try and do is look for second - third division teams in overseas leagues (esp Europe big 5) and create sister club relationships for loan spells for Australian youngsters. Create and nurture those links into the world. Make them visible. And desired. Give them a taste in order to cultivate the hunger they’ll need.

Soccer will (unfortunately.?) not challenge larger sports in Australia for elite youth athletes until there is a pathway that excites youngsters to choose not only to play soccer, but to be challenged and driven to constantly improve at every step, along a pathway that leads to a big ticket club if you are good enough AND have the drive to step up into that level. Without having to move into anonymity across the world with little exposure.
We are not a soccer country (we had pockets with the old National League and their ethnic supporter bases which is why I think the Golden Generation happened, it was nurtured in a visible cultural way) so we have to do things differently I think.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Some interesting ideas.

I think the talent scouts could also be a bit more proactive, perhaps target some of the physically gifted AFL and Basketball playing kids and try to entice some of them across to soccer.
 

Blue1980

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It’s just the same points and arguments from the last 20 years going around and around in circles
Well I think most the last decade. We needed a proper league setup and to get out of Oceania, and we did both of those things.

Maybe if we get towelled up in our last 2 games it might force some change, we can only hope.
 

Blue1980

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People are completely ignoring the obvious here. In alot of sports we were able to punch above our weight in that era because with the AIS and other things we moved into the professional era quicker than most countries. Now every country uses sports science and fitness and professionalism it's an even playing field.
Yes, but we still produce world class athletes in other sports. I agree re AIS giving us a big boost though.
 

mouncey2franklin

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I was there at Durban when the team was embarrassed 4-0 by Germany in 2010.

We had nothing to celebrate. Not one goal. I can't remember if there we even any shots on goal.

At least this team gave the supporters something to cheer for, something to believe in for 15 minutes.

As for why the national team is so poor these days, there have been some good posts in this thread.

The thing is, it is the same story as four years ago, the same story as eight years ago.

Too expensive for kids to play, poor development pathways, a-league is vanilla, etc.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that Aussie kids in general are fatter and more autistic than ever.

And it is only getting worse.

This is also a problem in other developed countries but Australia is at the front of the pack.

A generation ago, Australia had WC winning teams in Rugby Union and cricket.

At that time, the national soccer side was competitive at the World Cup (when they made it).

Also produced top level (Wimbledon / US Open winning) tennis players, even won a Davis Cup.

I won't be surprised if Australia are minnows in Rugby and mediocre in cricket in 20 years.

Seriously, take a look around and notice how many of the kids you know are either fat or autistic (or both).

There's something very strange going on. It wasn't anything close to this bad 25 years ago.

If Aussie kids are inside playing video games instead of outside playing sport with their mates, what do you expect?
 

Topkent

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Yes, but we still produce world class athletes in other sports. I agree re AIS giving us a big boost though.
Our union and cricket sides are far worse than those of the 2000s sides.

Granted I don't watch a heap of union anymore, but Kefu, Larkham, Latham, Sailor, Tuquiri, Gregan etc versus who now? Our teams average at best and other nations have caught up like the Irish, Welsh, Pumas etc

It's a joke to even compare the cricket sides

The decline has been worse in soccer, but let's not pretend it's the most popular sport in Australia. Kids wanna play AFL, League and Union first, Cricket aswell. Then it was soccer but Basketball has come to life here and now we have gun basketballers which puts soccer about 6th.
 

rogerjames

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Look at that list.... we don't have 1 player playing regular game in the top 5 leagues, we're all those players were playing regular in the the top league.. were player like Irvine is playing division 1 in Germany, McGree playing championship in England, yes it's far better than A League, but when you look at that list Kewell, Schwarzer, Cahill, Bresciano, Neill, Emerton, Viduka, Grella, Moore, Tiatto, Aloisi. That list is awesome.
Lazaridis & Chipperfield were very good too
 

lewdogs

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We did not lose to Brazil in the opening game. We beat japan 3-1 thanks to Cahill being a ******* star and then took it right up to Brazil but lost before drawing with Croatia no thanks to Kalac.

It's insane how people assume Denmark suck, they'll most likely destroy us
I'm not assuming Denmark suck at all they will most likely beat us I'm just saying their draw was a perfect result for us and our 4-1 loss wasn't that bad.

Of course we most likely won't progress but we couldn't have expected to be in a better position to do so.
 

lewdogs

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I was there at Durban when the team was embarrassed 4-0 by Germany in 2010.

We had nothing to celebrate. Not one goal. I can't remember if there we even any shots on goal.

At least this team gave the supporters something to cheer for, something to believe in for 15 minutes.

As for why the national team is so poor these days, there have been some good posts in this thread.

The thing is, it is the same story as four years ago, the same story as eight years ago.

Too expensive for kids to play, poor development pathways, a-league is vanilla, etc.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that Aussie kids in general are fatter and more autistic than ever.

And it is only getting worse.

This is also a problem in other developed countries but Australia is at the front of the pack.

A generation ago, Australia had WC winning teams in Rugby Union and cricket.

At that time, the national soccer side was competitive at the World Cup (when they made it).

Also produced top level (Wimbledon / US Open winning) tennis players, even won a Davis Cup.

I won't be surprised if Australia are minnows in Rugby and mediocre in cricket in 20 years.

Seriously, take a look around and notice how many of the kids you know are either fat or autistic (or both).

There's something very strange going on. It wasn't anything close to this bad 25 years ago.

If Aussie kids are inside playing video games instead of outside playing sport with their mates, what do you expect?
Seriously what the hell are you on about? Look around at how many kids are autistic?! Sounds like you've been wandering around on magic mushrooms or something.
 

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TheGreatBarryB

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Seriously, take a look around and notice how many of the kids you know are either fat or autistic (or both).

There's something very strange going on. It wasn't anything close to this bad 25 years ago.
Research has led to being better at recognising and diagnosing autism which has always been difficult condition to diagnose. Has nothing to do with vaccination as I think you’re trying to allude to.
 

SM

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Nah, no fluke, its a World Cup made of the best from each federation, not the best 32 teams in the world.
We’ve qualified 5 straight, unsurprisingly better record since we moved into Asia as we simply play more games that mean something.

What is true is that the numbers at youth level are there, but the quality is simply not emerging. I reckon it’s targeted elite development rather than lacking quality and potential. What would I do?

I’d have created youth academies in each major city and establish the 6-7 clubs as per Olympic rules (only 3 over 23yo) with a second club in each major city for more senior squads. Makes a 12 or 14 team national comp.
Drill the youth constantly, challenge them in games every week that matter, create competition amongst youth to get in the shop window. Generate interest in these teams through national drafts maybe and get some media time.

Align them with overseas teams if there is interest, like Man City are now. Or make them Red Bull teams and link with Austria and Germany. Who cares? Link them into the World game at every turn.

The best of the youth (All Australian team?) to go on overseas tours in off season playing friendlies wherever you can find them.

The other thing I’d try and do is look for second - third division teams in overseas leagues (esp Europe big 5) and create sister club relationships for loan spells for Australian youngsters. Create and nurture those links into the world. Make them visible. And desired. Give them a taste in order to cultivate the hunger they’ll need.

Soccer will (unfortunately.?) not challenge larger sports in Australia for elite youth athletes until there is a pathway that excites youngsters to choose not only to play soccer, but to be challenged and driven to constantly improve at every step, along a pathway that leads to a big ticket club if you are good enough AND have the drive to step up into that level. Without having to move into anonymity across the world with little exposure.
We are not a soccer country (we had pockets with the old National League and their ethnic supporter bases which is why I think the Golden Generation happened, it was nurtured in a visible cultural way) so we have to do things differently I think.

Just my 2 cents worth.

It was a fluke, we shouldn't have beaten Peru.
 

SM

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Japan and Saudi Arabia were the two clear best teams in our qualification and I'm sure Argentina and Germany agree.
We were competitive with them both in qualifying and won everywhere else, so that body of work tells me that we did ok.

I don't know how that rebuts the notion that we fluked our way past Peru in the play offs.
 

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Seriously, take a look around and notice how many of the kids you know are either fat or autistic (or both).

There's something very strange going on. It wasn't anything close to this bad 25 years ago.

If Aussie kids are inside playing video games instead of outside playing sport with their mates, what do you expect?

I think you would have to show that Aussie kids are fatter and more prone to autism than previously.

And that the criteria for being assessed as fat or autistic has remained the same. For example, the autism 'spectrum' now includes a large range of kids that might previously have been assessed as normal.

And that Aussie kids are fatter and more prone to autism than other countries.

I'm tending towards other reasons why the Socceroos are no good.
 
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burge13

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Research has led to being better at recognising and diagnosing autism which has always been difficult condition to diagnose. Has nothing to do with vaccination as I think you’re trying to allude to.
I think hes talking about how kids are inside playing video games more now rather than outside playing sports with friends, leading to them being more socially challenged and fatter. Hard to argue tbh. Never see street cricket anymore, moving the bin for cars to get through. Never see kids on bikes at xmas. Theyre inside on ps5

Not sure how you got to vax tbh
 

TheGreatBarryB

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I think hes talking about how kids are inside playing video games more now rather than outside playing sports with friends, leading to them being more socially challenged and fatter. Hard to argue tbh. Never see street cricket anymore, moving the bin for cars to get through. Never see kids on bikes at xmas. Theyre inside on ps5

Not sure how you got to vax tbh
Not sure what any of that has to do with autism.
 

Zidane98

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A lot of nonsense being posted on this thread. We were absolutely fine in the first half, unlucky not to score another through Irvine & Duke. Second half was poor. It happens.


I wonder if the same people on here said similar things about Argentina & Croatia who were both dismantled by France last world cup and had 4 goals plundered against them?


France have the ability to do that against any side in the world.
 

Zidane98

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Players also need to stay here, rather than setting off on European adventures. Many players get lost in the European system. If we can get the development process right at home, there should be no need for players to head overseas. The exception is for players who are capable at the very top, then obviously you chase that opportunity. If, theoretically, we could recall all our players who play irregularly in mediocre European leagues, not only would these players play regularly here at home, they would improve the standard of the A-League, itself reducing the need to head overseas in the first place.

This is already starting to happen.



Ideally we want all Australian Footballers to play in the A League except for those that ultimately go on to the very top level. A year or 2 in the A League at a young age is perfect. Then only go overseas for the likes of Ligue 1, Bundesliga / Bundesliga 2, Premier League, Championship, Serie A, Serie B, La Liga, Eredivise, Belgium League & SPL (Celtic / Rangers only).

Players joining lower level SPL clubs, Norweigen / Danish / Asian leagues (aside from J League) is utterly pointless in terms of career progression.
 

mouncey2franklin

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Research has led to being better at recognising and diagnosing autism which has always been difficult condition to diagnose. Has nothing to do with vaccination as I think you’re trying to allude to.

I didn't say anything about vaccinations, please do not turn this into some off topic strawman thing.

What I'm saying is, even just a generation or so ago, most boys played sport at lunch time and after school, and on weekends.

Now it seems like only a minority still do so, and the rest are spending their time inside playing video games as their main hobby.

This correlates with the number of boys who have 'development issues' or 'learning problems' or whatever you want to call it.

Back in the 90s and 00s, it was rare for children to have these problems.

Now it seems to me (and I accept this is purely anecdotal) to be common.

All I am saying is, take a look around, do you notice the same thing? Be honest.

The relevancy here is that Australia cannot hope to produce world class athletes if an increasing proportion of its young males are fat and / or autistic.

You know this is obvious, so why argue about it?
 

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