2022 Hawthorn List Management Discussion (including Trade, FA period)

[Blackhawk42]

Terrible outcome for us in isolation, but give me the name of any non-academy kid taken after Seamus Mitchell in that draft who is more than even a modest prospect.

Average players at best, all of em. Only Beau McCreery and Brockman have any genuine quality about them and one is ours anyway.

Ginnivan.

We even took Saunders before him.

 

[KermitJagger]

Ginnivan.

We even took Saunders before him.

So did every other club with essentially every pick they took, he was taken in the rookie draft.

 

[Blackhawk42]

So did every other club with essentially every pick they took, he was taken in the rookie draft.

That's fine, but it answers your question. He was taken after Seamus and Saunders and he could have played for us.

 

[KermitJagger]

That's fine, but it answers your question. He was taken after Seamus and Saunders and he could have played for us.

It doesn't, the rookie draft is a different draft on a different day.

 

[Blackhawk42]

It doesn't, the rookie draft is a different draft on a different day.

It's an extension of the draft simply with a different name and contract stipulations. Suggesting you can't count Ginnivan as somebody we could have recruited instead of Seamus is just creating your own set of rules.

We didn't rate him as highly. That's fine. But we could have had Ginnivan instead of SMitchell.

 

[hawkinoz]

I believe the numbers After delisting Seamus are 30 senior list 5 cat A rookie 1 cat B rookie. So max 8 spots as list max is 44, split 36-38 primary, 4-6 rookie A and 1-2 rookie B. If we hold a spot and rookie Seamus then 6 spots to draft/dfa. If we take vickery and Lawrence vickery would need to be a primary picks so we would have to hold a later one the rookie Seamus and Lawrence. we would need to upgrade a player from newk bramble blanck long ramsden to create the rookie spot. I think that’s right hopefully

Sort of right. We have 6 senior spots and 2 rookie list spots( 1 will go to Seamus Mitchell).

10 seniors left & 4 came in. 2 rookies left.

So can only take 6 picks to draft. Well hoping we do the 50,52,65 deal for pick 36, gives Lions extra 100 points & then swap 48 for GWS 57 & 61.
Will give us 6,24,36,41,57,61 - 6 picks.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

It's an extension of the draft simply with a different name and contract stipulations. Suggesting you can't count Ginnivan as somebody we could have recruited instead of Seamus is just creating your own set of rules.

We didn't rate him as highly. That's fine. But we could have had Ginnivan instead of SMitchell.

That's like being a Demons fan and lamenting that you took Jack Watts in the 2008 draft instead of Luke Breust who went for pick 47 in the rookie draft. If it is a scenario like picking Hartung two picks before Merrett then it's lamentable because they were both rated as being an early second round pick. Ginnivan clearly wasn't on the radar at Saunders' pick for all 18 clubs.

 

[KermitJagger]

It's an extension of the draft simply with a different name and contract stipulations. Suggesting you can't count Ginnivan as somebody we could have recruited instead of Seamus is just creating your own set of rules.

We didn't rate him as highly. That's fine. But we could have had Ginnivan instead of SMitchell.

It's not creating my own rules, it's literally a different draft. That's why it has different name, different contract stipulations and different uses. Have a look at a lot of those names there in 2020 - Grant Birchall, Sam Reid, Jacob Townsend, Tyson Goldsack, Bryce Gibbs - are you telling me those guys were taken in an extension of the National Draft?

 

[FB19]

Sort of right. We have 6 senior spots and 2 rookie list spots( 1 will go to Seamus Mitchell).

10 seniors left & 4 came in. 2 rookies left.

So can only take 6 picks to draft. Well hoping we do the 50,52,65 deal for pick 36, gives Lions extra 100 points & then swap 48 for GWS 57 & 61.
Will give us 6,24,36,41,57,61 - 6 picks.

Not an expert but I don’t think that’s right as I understand it the max is 44 and you can vary that within the ranges set 36-38 primary 4-6 rookie A 1-2 rookie B. We have 8 open list spots at present with 1 committed to Seamus but that’s post ND so we can take up to 8 picks into the draft. Currently we have 7 so in theory we could split a pick for 2. Happy for someone to point me to where that’s wrong as getting info on this is quite difficult and I don’t profess to be an expert.

 

[hawkinoz]

Not an expert but I don’t think that’s right as I understand it the max is 44 and you can vary that within the ranges set 36-38 primary 4-6 rookie A 1-2 rookie B. We have 8 open list spots at present with 1 committed to Seamus but that’s post ND so we can take up to 8 picks into the draft. Currently we have 7 so in theory we could split a pick for 2. Happy for someone to point me to where that’s wrong as getting info on this is quite difficult and I don’t profess to be an expert.

if we can list 36-38 senior with max of 44, then you are right.
I worked off assumption only 36 senior ones.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

You can tell the type of supporter someone is from their perspective on that draft. Every miserable wet blanket calls it a terrible draft for us and ignores that it was a terrible draft for pretty much every club.

Honestly that draft year is shaping up to be one of the worst (if not the worst) on record.

In fact I am of the belief that the National Draft is becoming less and less important overall and we will see more mature age selections from state leagues in future years.

Think of all the list positions AFL clubs wasted on players in the 2020 draft for the sum total of zero games played. Tell me another professional league in the world that would do such a thing?

Its such a massive punt picking a player when they are 18. Really only exceptional talents like Nick Daicos (the AFL's version of Kobe Bryant straight our of high school) are a sure bet for players so young.

Whereas you can pick up a 20/21 year old kid like Newk who has proven himself against senior players in the VFL but is still very young in the MSD. Much safer bet IMOH.

 

[H00t]

Honestly that draft year is shaping up to be one of the worst (if not the worst) on record.

In fact I am of the belief that the National Draft is becoming less and less important overall and we will see more mature age selections from state leagues in future years.

Think of all the list positions AFL clubs wasted on players in the 2020 draft for the sum total of zero games played. Tell me another professional league in the world that would do such a thing?

Its such a massive punt picking a player when they are 18. Really only exceptional talents like Nick Daicos (the AFL's version of Kobe Bryant straight our of high school) are a sure bet for players so young.

Whereas you can pick up a 20/21 year old kid like Newk who has proven himself against senior players in the VFL but is still very young in the MSD. Much safer bet IMOH.

2020 was a complete anomaly though. Covid massively changed the game. Wiping a year off from players development was always going to have an effect.

It meant it was going to be the riskiest draft in a while.

While I don’t have the stats on hand. Prior to 2020. Teams were drafting a lot better than early 2000’s. As the professionalism in the juniors has increased, drafting has improved.

Even the two mature agers we’ve added that look like successes were first eligible from the 2019 draft.

Sometimes you get a bad draft, add in covid and it made it a way worse draft. But I don’t think teams should be throwing away the draft because of a once in a 100 years pandemic.

 

[Brant]

Sort of right. We have 6 senior spots and 2 rookie list spots( 1 will go to Seamus Mitchell).

10 seniors left & 4 came in. 2 rookies left.

So can only take 6 picks to draft. Well hoping we do the 50,52,65 deal for pick 36, gives Lions extra 100 points & then swap 48 for GWS 57 & 61.
Will give us 6,24,36,41,57,61 - 6 picks.

Walk me through the rationale of this trade please mate, I don't get why we'd do that?

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Honestly that draft year is shaping up to be one of the worst (if not the worst) on record.

In fact I am of the belief that the National Draft is becoming less and less important overall and we will see more mature age selections from state leagues in future years.

Think of all the list positions AFL clubs wasted on players in the 2020 draft for the sum total of zero games played. Tell me another professional league in the world that would do such a thing?

Its such a massive punt picking a player when they are 18. Really only exceptional talents like Nick Daicos (the AFL's version of Kobe Bryant straight our of high school) are a sure bet for players so young.

Whereas you can pick up a 20/21 year old kid like Newk who has proven himself against senior players in the VFL but is still very young in the MSD. Much safer bet IMOH.

Bad drafts happen - and 2020 was exceptionally hard because most kids couldn't play for the majority of the year and recruiters couldn't get around the country to check up on them. It doesn't mean the draft won't be the best way to get young talent going forward. Every sporting league with drafts has the odd one here or there which turns out to be dreadful overall. Check out the 2000 NBA draft - it is hilariously bad.

With the 2020 draft the majority of the first rounders have played a decent amount of games now. Jake Bowey won a premiership. Max Holmes would have been a premiership player had he not done a hammy - Logan MacDonald probably should have played in the grand final for the Swans instead of a hobbling Reid and Gulden and Campbell did play in the grand final.

Not every side had a bad year at the 2020 draft.

 

[Brant]

2020 was a complete anomaly though. Covid massively changed the game. Wiping a year off from players development was always going to have an effect.
It meant it was going to be the riskiest draft in a while.While I don’t have the stats on hand. Prior to 2020. Teams were drafting a lot better than early 2000’s. As the professionalism in the juniors has increased, drafting has improved.Even the two mature agers we’ve added that look like successes were first eligible from the 2019 draft.Sometimes you get a bad draft, add in covid and it made it a way worse draft. But I don’t think teams should be throwing away the draft because of a once in a 100 years pandemic.

You'd be mad to ignore the Draft, but probs just as mad if you focused only on the Draft at the expense of 20-22yr old SSP & MSD options.

Some teams might be best served with Pick 8 in the MSD than with Pick 48 in the ND, for example, so why burn the list spot on Pick 48?

 

[Brant]

Bad drafts happen - and 2020 was exceptionally hard because most kids couldn't play for the majority of the year and recruiters couldn't get around the country to check up on them. It doesn't mean the draft won't be the best way to get young talent going forward. Every sporting league with drafts has the odd one here or there which turns out to be dreadful overall. Check out the 2000 NBA draft - it is hilariously bad.

With the 2020 draft the majority of the first rounders have played a decent amount of games now. Jake Bowey won a premiership. Max Holmes would have been a premiership player had he not done a hammy - Logan MacDonald probably should have played in the grand final for the Swans instead of a hobbling Reid and Gulden and Campbell did play in the grand final.

Not every side had a bad year at the 2020 draft.

Ridiculous that they got those 3 from the same draft...

 

[Rowie6]

Josh Eyre has just been delisted and I know we interviewed him just prior to his draft year.
Does anyone know whether we he would be a good fit at the Hawks ?
I think he is around 200cm ???
Has anyone taken notice of him at VFL level?


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[H00t]

You'd be mad to ignore the Draft, but probs just as mad if you focused only on the Draft at the expense of 20-22yr old SSP & MSD options.

Some teams might be best served with Pick 8 in the MSD than with Pick 48 in the ND, for example, so why burn the list spot on Pick 48?

There’s been very few mid season draft hits. I’d take pick 48 every time.

What I expect might happen is teams lower down might keep an open rookie position to grab an early pick in the msd.

These years currently are the best ones to grab picks in the msd. As everything is pretty settled now, it will go back to less players slipping through the cracks.

Over the last 20 there’s only been a handful of overage players become really good players.

 

[Bugs1977]

That's fine, but it answers your question. He was taken after Seamus and Saunders and he could have played for us.

Wasn't there chatter that we we're hugely into Ginnivan pre-draft with a later pick? Have to wonder wether passing on him was mainly due to him being an absolute d**khead. Kid can play but talent aside it seems an emphasis has been put on bringing in good people. FWIW I'm not saying Ginnivan is a bad person but he does seem to obviously have that me me me stigma about him.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Wasn't there chatter that we we're hugely into Ginnivan pre-draft with a later pick? Have to wonder wether passing on him was mainly due to him being an absolute d**khead. Kid can play but talent aside it seems an emphasis has been put on bringing in good people. FWIW I'm not saying Ginnivan is a bad person but he does seem to obviously have that me me me stigma about him.

Is this coming from anywhere outside the fact that his hair is dyed blonde? I see this dialogue about the kid a lot and other than the fact that he is a bit demonstrative I don't see what's so bad about him outside the ducking antics.

 

[eldorado]

Sort of right. We have 6 senior spots and 2 rookie list spots( 1 will go to Seamus Mitchell).

10 seniors left & 4 came in. 2 rookies left.

So can only take 6 picks to draft. Well hoping we do the 50,52,65 deal for pick 36, gives Lions extra 100 points & then swap 48 for GWS 57 & 61.
Will give us 6,24,36,41,57,61 - 6 picks.

Already delisting Seamus from the senior list means all 7 of our picks are live.

As Brant said the other day, the move on Seamus suggests a pick trade is the likely rationale.

 

[hawkinoz]

Walk me through the rationale of this trade please mate, I don't get why we'd do that?

The idea behind swapping 48 for GWS 57 & 61 is 2 fold

We can't trade 48 back to lions for points a we got it from them. This trade will allow us to offer 41+61(547pts) for pick 38(465pts). May give us the option of bidding for Munkara right at pick 40. 38 becomes 40 after 4 FS bids and lions losing 34 & 35.
6,24,36,38,57 - 5 picks.

The other option is if Dons are open to trade their pick 22 for F2(WB) that we have, they want a late pick back for points for Davey. We can give 57 or 61 and keep 1 in that case instead of 48. 57 and 61 become 54 & 58 when Davey is being bid on. ( picks 48,50,52,54,55 vanish)

6,22,24,36,41,57 - 6 picks.

I would say it is unlikely the dons are looking to trade with us and option 1 should be our main plan and if Dons want pick 40 from us then they trade their F2 or F3 to us. or swap F2 and trade their F3.

Holding that pick 38 can also sway them to deal with us for their pick 22 trade instead of others. Deal for 22 can then involve 38 as well.

 

[Bugs1977]

Is this coming from anywhere outside the fact that his hair is dyed blonde? I see this dialogue about the kid a lot and other than the fact that he is a bit demonstrative I don't see what's so bad about him outside the ducking antics.

Nah in case you've been asleep its come from anyone not in support of the Collingwood football club. The kid is obviously young and still maturing but he's clearly in the red on the douche-bag-meter

 

[FB19]

I have been trying everything to see how we could get another early pick I wonder if it’s gold coast this year or next. They have 3-4 academy kids next year and a settled list so don’t want too many picks given they need open list spots to match. They have 9 2023 picks with points value they clearly would want to convert those into earlier 2nd rounders and we have 2. Our version of the bowes dump could be pick 5 plus a swathe of those later picks for our 2 second rounders. Would you lose those 2 picks to add 2 of tsatas philippou Humphrey Mackenzie? Would you entertain splitting one live for a good haul with Sydney now we have 2 picks? Would cats trade up with us so we could add something else? Feels like we could unlock something here -thoughts?

 

[hawkinoz]

I have been trying everything to see how we could get another early pick I wonder if it’s gold coast this year or next. They have 3-4 academy kids next year and a settled list so don’t want too many picks given they need open list spots to match. They have 9 2023 picks with points value they clearly would want to convert those into earlier 2nd rounders and we have 2. Our version of the bowes dump could be pick 5 plus a swathe of those later picks for our 2 second rounders. Would you lose those 2 picks to add 2 of tsatas philippou Humphrey Mackenzie? Would you entertain splitting one live for a good haul with Sydney now we have 2 picks? Would cats trade up with us so we could add something else? Feels like we could unlock something here -thoughts?

GWS is rumored to take only 3 selections and may be looking to dump 19 & 31.

I think we need to look at those. Very very slim chance Suns are trading their 5.
they have 5, 45, 71, 74 in 2022

and all their Future picks + below
Round two pick (tied to GWS,
received from BL as part of Tom Berry trade)

• Round three pick (tied to Adel)
• Round three pick (tied to Geel)
• Round four pick (tied to Adel)
• Round four pick (tied to StK)