2022...List management.

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Tibbs

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 9, 2013
6,140
14,617
Brisbane
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Maybe you missed the crux of my previous post. Our issue is not the players and certainly not the midfield. We have the reigning brownlow medalist for a reason after all. Our issue is relying on them for winning games. Our issue is not being awake in the first quarter. Our issue is coaching and forward structure.

All of those can be addressed without tanking in the midfield by not playing our best mids. The idea that Hayes is ahead of Lycett without even playing a game is pretty crazy too. Yes he needs games and has to develop but ditching Lycett cause the other guy gives you hope isn't rational.
Mate you are a carp reader too, because I am not far away from you actually. I am not actually too bothered we missed Merrett, or any other import. I also feel we already have the talent to go all the way. And yes I agree the problem lies with coaching & selection. See that was easy!

Where I disagree with you is the road we should take. A combination of injury and poor coaching meant 2020 was a wasted year. Butters and Rozee didnt get the opportunities in the middle that the club trumpeted would happen. Ladhams, whom we now know the club didnt really rate, was played in favour of Hayes delaying his development. Ken's MO of making selections and tactics to save his career, inspires zero confidence that anything will change. We have the talent, but the evidence is that it is being wasted!

Finally, sorry I dont really rate Lycett as highly as many here. He is a warrior & gives his all, his main asset is his strength at the contest. But he cant jump at all, and his tapwork is ordinary to poor - often to the opposition, who seem to rove his tap work better than our mids. I am not saying drop him, but Hayes has to play from day one, along with Lycett. He has to be given his chance now. Just like Luke Jackson has been allowed to play & find his level, we have to see if Hayes can step up. Hell, if Hayes supposedly isnt ready, then why the hell did they get rid of our other ruckman? No excuses! he has to play!

Unless we make the changes needed, and allow these guys the time needed, then 2022 will go the same way as the last two years. It might mean we slip back a bit in 2022, I dont care! But on the otherhand, we might do well ... Just do it!
 
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P4Life

Team Captain
Mar 25, 2019
377
731
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Mate you are a carp reader too, because I am not far away from you actually. I am not actually too bothered we missed Merrett, or any other import. I also feel we already have the talent to go all the way. And yes I agree the problem lies with coaching & selection. See that was easy!

Where I disagree with you is the road we should take. A combination of injury and poor coaching meant 2020 was a wasted year. Butters and Rozee didnt get the opportunities in the middle that the club trumpeted would happen. Ladhams, whom we now know the club didnt really rate, was played in favour of Hayes delaying his development. Ken's MO of making selections and tactics to save his career, inspires zero confidence that anything will change. We have the talent, but the evidence is that it is being wasted!

Finally, sorry I dont really rate Lycett as highly as many here. He is a warrior & gives his all, his main asset is his strength at the contest. But he cant jump at all, and his tapwork is ordinary to poor - often to the opposition, who seem to rove his tap work better than our mids. I am not saying drop him, but Hayes has to play from day one, along with Lycett. He has to be given his chance now. Just like Luke Jackson has been allowed to play & find his level, we have to see if Hayes can step up. Hell, if Hayes supposedly isnt ready, then why the hell did they get rid of our other ruckman? No excuses! he has to play!

Unless we make the changes needed, and allow these guys the time needed, then 2022 will go the same way as the last two years. It might mean we slip back a bit in 2022, I dont care! But on the otherhand, we might do well ... Just do it!
I know we all see things differently however i have to call you out on this.
2020 was never the year to play them as midfielders as they were second year players.
In 2021 we are talking about Butters who missed from Round 5 to Round 17 with a serious injury and suffered the injury whilst playing midfield.
Connor Rozee who went through the year with knee problems and actually missed games because of it and actually did play some midfield minutes in a number of games.
Ladhams was given 5 games as our No 1 Ruckmen during Lycett's suspension to show us what he had as the No 1 ruckmen and he choked big time.
Hayes will play next year.
Our coaching got us to Top 2 on the ladder in a season where we had a record number of in season surgeries.
I do agree with you that these players must get games as midfielders and as the ruckman asap, but to be blaming coaches and selectors is over the top.
 

FishingRick04

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 9, 2007
21,741
18,088
Adelaide
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Do we really have stars all over the park? I count about three & one of them needs to phased out.
Correct

Ollie. Alir
No I am a carp writer, meant finals.
My point is that if you can win 1 final of course you can win 2,3 or even 4
Improvement comes from the players you have.
No one recruits a premiership team over summer
9 years enough to build one?
 

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Powerage

Club Legend
Aug 14, 2014
1,744
2,200
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
I dont see how these players have what it takes to contend again. I could be wrong but I feel like the window is shut. At best, they'll maintain 2021 form but there isn't going to be the kind of improvement required to beat a team like Melbourne.
A lot of people seem to think we don't have what it takes to beat a Melbourne. There are two assumptions here I don't necessarily agree with. One that we won't improve organically. Other posters are largely covering that. All I will add is last year was one of our worst years for injury in a long time. Those players that even came back for the finals were not in the same consistent form they were before their long layoffs.

But secondly the point I would make is how often does a team win a Premiership back to back? Or even play in a Grand Final back to back? Especially in recent times. We have had Hawthorn and Richmond but for every one of them there has been a team who dropped down the ladder significantly after playing in a Grand Final and did not even make next years prelims. Western Bulldogs, West Coast, Adelaide, GWS Giants.

For every team that starts a dynasty, there is a team that wins a premiership and either gets worked out, suffers a bad year from injury to the wrong players etc. There may even be rule changes that affect some clubs more than others. Melbourne are rightfully the current benchmark but it takes a lot to go right to win a premiership in every respect, and even more to win two in a row.

I don't think you can rely on anything in the year to come except it is a clean slate, its a marathon, and you do what you can to advance your own list and to work out others.
 

Byrons Firen

Norm Smith Medallist
Dec 4, 2013
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Correct

Ollie. Alir
I'd temper my expectations on Aliir, Bevo showed the blueprint for negating his influence.

If other coaches employ the same cheating tactic (blocking him at every opportunity) then the club needs to go public and point this out.

Picking up on our midfield musings I've got my reservations on Rozee in there full-time and making a difference. Doubt he's got the build or the will

to mix it with the Olivers/Petraccas. SPP on the other hand has and if he really stands up, then we'll have plugged a big hole.
 

Powerage

Club Legend
Aug 14, 2014
1,744
2,200
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
You can argue that Port are currently an underperforming side, they just didn't underperform to the levels that Melbourne did in 2020. I also look at Melbourne's record against top 8 sides this year and it was bloody unbelievable to be frank. Pretty much every other contender had roughly a 50/50 W/L rate against top 8 sides, they took everyone to the cleaners. And they did it with internal growth - I mean, bringing in Ben Brown wasn't the reason these guys went from basket case to premiers in 12 months.

I don't see this Port team as one that's hit their ceiling. Far from it imo. If you plug in Georgiades for Ladhams into our "best" lineup this past season, 11 of the 23 players (including the sub) at currently 25 years old or less, and that is ignoring Lachie Jones who will likely be in our best side this upcoming season. Just 5 are over 30 (Motlop, Jonas, Gray, Boak and Dixon). Whilst Boak and Dixon remain key focal points of the team, neither Motlop or Gray are playing vital roles at this point of their career, and Jonas remains serviceable on bigger bodies down back.

The big if for me is whether the club is going to be able to get more out of the following players: Butters, Rozee, Duursma, Bergman, Drew and SPP. That's where the midfield improvement is going to have to come from. The first part is the talent - we know these guys have the talent in them. If that can be drawn out of them to perform at a high level on a consistent basis, that's going to raise our overall performance immensely, to the point whereby I would be expecting a premiership.
Focusing specifically on the inside mids the players that should have got more time in preparation for the finals but didn't due to injury, delayed starts to the season, or form based on carrying an injury are
  1. Houston
  2. SPP
  3. Butters
  4. Duursma
  5. Rozee
Of those, Houston and SPP have bodies ready to go for inside work. With a decent preseason they probably have the tanks to play significant midfield minutes. The others are the lightweight, but skilled, clearance players and Butters in particular plays above his size. But those last three need to put on at least 5 kg if they really want to be the inside mids we need in the future I think. If we can 3 of these guys to play injury free with a good preseason under their belt I think we will find our midfield bolstered, assuming of course we get lucky with our current performers Wines, Drew and Boak.

Boak should play less midfield minutes. Whether he sits out the odd game, has less TOG or plays some time on a wing he should be managed. Hell, he should have been better managed this year. To get more midfield minutes into the younger guys out of left field I would even look at resting Wines up forward for periods. He took some very good contested marks, it seems to be the next evolutionary step for midfielders these days is to become a forward threat so that might open up more time for the younger guys to play in the middle.

Lachie Jones is a smokey. He has the body, the skills and the explosiveness to be exactly the mid we are looking for. I'd be surprised if he has the tank, especially after the injuries he had this year, to play significant minutes but it would be interesting to see what he could do in bursts.

My biggest hopes are for SPP and Butters. Butters is the new Gray in tight contested situations so hopefully he gets on the Mega Mass 5000 and we see what he can do with an injury free year. SPP has a lot to prove but he has the body and the strength to contest all day and physically tire the opposition. Hopefully he keeps his head together, has a big preseason, and the opportunity to play reasonable midfield minutes this year.
 
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Byrons Firen

Norm Smith Medallist
Dec 4, 2013
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Lachie Jones is a smokey. He has the body, the skills and the explosiveness to be exactly the mid we are looking for. I'd be surprised if he has the tank, especially after the injuries he had this year, to play significant minutes but it would be interesting to see what he could do in bursts.
mmmm... lets not forget he's little more than a debutant.

Plenty to like but sheesh he's still at a deer in the headlights stage, trusting mostly in safe little kicks and safe little h/balls.

Imo he's minimum 1/2 to a full season away from showing us what he's got. Reckon the club'll be fossicking thru the DFA's bargain barrel.
 

Tibbs

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 9, 2013
6,140
14,617
Brisbane
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Port Adelaide
I know we all see things differently however i have to call you out on this.
2020 was never the year to play them as midfielders as they were second year players.
In 2021 we are talking about Butters who missed from Round 5 to Round 17 with a serious injury and suffered the injury whilst playing midfield.
Connor Rozee who went through the year with knee problems and actually missed games because of it and actually did play some midfield minutes in a number of games.
Ladhams was given 5 games as our No 1 Ruckmen during Lycett's suspension to show us what he had as the No 1 ruckmen and he choked big time.
Hayes will play next year.
Our coaching got us to Top 2 on the ladder in a season where we had a record number of in season surgeries.
I do agree with you that these players must get games as midfielders and as the ruckman asap, but to be blaming coaches and selectors is over the top.
Sorry, my mistake ... I meant this year, 2021. They were both pushing for more midfield time at the start of this year, and it was reported a few times by the club that they would get more time to develop there. Injuries screwed any hope of that fully unfolding. It was just enough to finally get them on the park. I really am hoping we get some good preseasons into all our young guys, and that we can avoid any injuries.
 

TeeKray

Moderator
Mar 1, 2014
15,482
83,887
Perth
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
A lot of people seem to think we don't have what it takes to beat a Melbourne. There are two assumptions here I don't necessarily agree with. One that we won't improve organically. Other posters are largely covering that. All I will add is last year was one of our worst years for injury in a long time. Those players that even came back for the finals were not in the same consistent form they were before their long layoffs.

But secondly the point I would make is how often does a team win a Premiership back to back? Or even play in a Grand Final back to back? Especially in recent times. We have had Hawthorn and Richmond but for every one of them there has been a team who dropped down the ladder significantly after playing in a Grand Final and did not even make next years prelims. Western Bulldogs, West Coast, Adelaide, GWS Giants.

For every team that starts a dynasty, there is a team that wins a premiership and either gets worked out, suffers a bad year from injury to the wrong players etc. There may even be rule changes that affect some clubs more than others. Melbourne are rightfully the current benchmark but it takes a lot to go right to win a premiership in every respect, and even more to win two in a row.

I don't think you can rely on anything in the year to come except it is a clean slate, its a marathon, and you do what you can to advance your own list and to work out others.
In the modern AFL, Victorian teams mostly have long periods of contention, often winning multiple premierships, whilst non Victorian teams have shorter periods of contention and rarely win premierships.

The Bulldogs are the only real exception and that's because their premiership wasnt a real premiership, it was an umpire gifted fairytale.
 

Powerage

Club Legend
Aug 14, 2014
1,744
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AFL Club
Port Adelaide
In the modern AFL, Victorian teams mostly have long periods of contention, often winning multiple premierships, whilst non Victorian teams have shorter periods of contention and rarely win premierships.

The Bulldogs are the only real exception and that's because their premiership wasnt a real premiership, it was an umpire gifted fairytale.
Yeah you are right. I guess in general I see teams bouncing up and down the ladder from year to year and I just wonder whether Melbourne have the same infrastructure and finances to build a dynasty, especially if they had a year where they struggled with injuries. I guess we will see with them, and with a few other teams esp Geelong, Richmond and the Bulldogs. Sometimes it just get down to whether they have a brittle gameplan and whether other teams have got the cattle to counteract it. But then I don't have a lot of faith in our own gameplan or its versatility. Maybe that will change.
 

RussellEbertHandball

Flick pass expert
Nov 16, 2004
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But secondly the point I would make is how often does a team win a Premiership back to back? Or even play in a Grand Final back to back? Especially in recent times. We have had Hawthorn and Richmond but for every one of them there has been a team who dropped down the ladder significantly after playing in a Grand Final and did not even make next years prelims. Western Bulldogs, West Coast, Adelaide, GWS Giants.
Since the league went fulltime and the current finals system. Back to back GF's/premierships
Ess 2000-01
................. Bris 2001-02-03-04
............................................. Syd 2005-06
............................................. WCE 2005-06
................................................................ Gee 2007-08-09
....................................................................................... StK 2009-10
......................................................................................................... Col 2010-11

Haw 2012-13-14-15
............................ Rich 2019-20

Arguably if Cox didn't have his big day out in the 2018 PF, Richmond would have played in 4 GF's in a row and Western Bulldogs would have been the only team to break the streak.

The 2 expansion sides taking so many good players had its impact in the teens.

Vic teams the last decade have an advantage at the MCG - Melbourne's home ground - in September. Melbourne's demographics, list profile and age of their dominate midfielders says they should be a strong team for 3 or 4 years. Maybe now they have won they might enjoy it too much and not handle the pressure playing in front of their big home crowds who will have high expectations after missing out. Only time will tell.
 

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RussellEbertHandball

Flick pass expert
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What’s the go with Motlop? I’ve never seen a contract deal drag on, must be dollars, will it mean sitting out 2022?
Might be like post 2003 season - Choco told Kingsley we were going to delist him if he didn't get himself fit by the time the first or second list lodgement period and the full squad hadn't returned from their break. Can't remember if it was purely fitness related or combo fitness + injury related.

A kick up the arse might be good for Motlop.
 

Portology

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Might be like post 2003 season - Choco told Kingsley we were going to delist him if he didn't get himself fit by the time the first or second list lodgement period and the full squad hadn't returned from their break. Can't remember if it was purely fitness related or combo fitness + injury related.

A kick up the arse might be good for Motlop.
Kingsley was 28 when that happened and eventually played into 2006. I don't recall thinking gee something wrong with Kingsley but his stats in 2002 dropped off late season and in 2003 drop off in second half of the season. Different time but as a discard from a top side in a prime age I still think he would have been picked up elsewhere. Maybe he was motivated by the opportunity, atoning for missed opportunities, more so than by the threat of losing the rest of his career. Mots 31 at the start of next season so one more that's probably it. So what's driving him? Does he really care if he spends his last year cruising somewhat at the Magpies mentoring kids with an occasional highlight pulled out of his skillset and the odd AFL game filling in for an injured Orazio?
 

raptalia

Premium Platinum
Mar 1, 2014
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So what is the story with Jase Burgoyne? I would have thought that most SA based lads would have jumped at the chance to stay in Adelaide.

This from the media-

If Burgoyne nominated Port Adelaide, the club could match rivals’ draft bids next month, but the 18-year-old Woodville-West Torrens halfback/wingman told reporters on Saturday he was unsure what he would do and had to weigh up his options.

Jase has until Friday to make up his mind but you have wonder why he is taking this long to commit. It seems that the Club is happy enough to commit but Burgoyne has some reservations. Maybe Jase is not happy at not playing alongside Trent?
 

Holden Hillbilly

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 8, 2004
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There's quite a bit of finalising lists on the afl site today...nothing from Port?
2 weeks to go:

The first delisted free agency period runs for seven days, from November 3 to November 9.

After a list lodgement day on November 10, the second window for delisted free agents will run for five days, from November 11 to November 15.
 

rumoursofwinter

Premiership Player
Nov 7, 2008
4,497
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melbourne
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2 weeks to go:

The first delisted free agency period runs for seven days, from November 3 to November 9.

After a list lodgement day on November 10, the second window for delisted free agents will run for five days, from November 11 to November 15.
The first list lodgement is Friday 29 October. I suppose you dont need to be re-signed till second list lodgement? Don't know.
 

Tibbs

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 9, 2013
6,140
14,617
Brisbane
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
So what is the story with Jase Burgoyne? I would have thought that most SA based lads would have jumped at the chance to stay in Adelaide.

This from the media-

If Burgoyne nominated Port Adelaide, the club could match rivals’ draft bids next month, but the 18-year-old Woodville-West Torrens halfback/wingman told reporters on Saturday he was unsure what he would do and had to weigh up his options.

Jase has until Friday to make up his mind but you have wonder why he is taking this long to commit. It seems that the Club is happy enough to commit but Burgoyne has some reservations. Maybe Jase is not happy at not playing alongside Trent?
That was last weekend wasnt it? They also said they would be meeting with him during this week gone by to discuss things ... So has anyone heard anything from these meetings?
 

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