Training 2022 pre-season

[SGBeach]

I'm a big McLean advocate, I strongly believe he has the capacity to play 200 games. Not just because of his attributes and play but he's got confidence and leadership qualities imo.

I wish we could play 4 talls up forward but I suspect it'd make us too slow. Bud Logan and McLean as permanent forwards who all provide something different with Ladhams as the 2nd ruck behind Hickey. I think Ladhams is a superior 2nd ruck to McLean at this stage

Im also a McLean fan, just not as big of a fan as most on here.
He'll always give 100%.. which is a massive tick with Horse (and all coaches). I still remember his 1st ruck contest in his debut game.. he ran in at full speed and copped a knee straight in the guts.. would've hurt, but got straight up. Think he won the hearts of most Swans supporters at that moment.
but..
I reckon he is limited.. yes he can take a contested mark, but lacks mobility. It seems his best position is full forward, and to be a regular in that position, he'll need to be kicking 50+ goals each season - not sure he has that in him?
I reckon (maybe this year, maybe next) McDonald will overtake him in that position. McDonald is more mobile, more athletic and looks to be a better full forward. Oh, and theres Buddy!
in 2022, McLean is behind Armatey, Ladhams and Reid in terms of ruck ability. He also didn't ruck much (if at all) last year, so I dont reckon he's first choice (more like 3rd-4th) for the position of forward/ruck

Armatey signed a 2 year contract extension early last season, McLean signed a 2 year contract extension at the end of the trade period. This suggests to me that the Swans were willing (not wanting) to trade McLean, but there were no takers, and are more keen on Armatey.
I reckon McLean is great to have on the list as someone that doesn't cost much and can play a role in the senior side if needed. He offers excellent depth

 

[Kiama Chris]

Im also a McLean fan, just not as big of a fan as most on here.
He'll always give 100%.. which is a massive tick with Horse (and all coaches). I still remember his 1st ruck contest in his debut game.. he ran in at full speed and copped a knee straight in the guts.. would've hurt, but got straight up. Think he won the hearts of most Swans supporters at that moment.
but..
I reckon he is limited.. yes he can take a contested mark, but lacks mobility. It seems his best position is full forward, and to be a regular in that position, he'll need to be kicking 50+ goals each season - not sure he has that in him?
I reckon (maybe this year, maybe next) McDonald will overtake him in that position. McDonald is more mobile, more athletic and looks to be a better full forward. Oh, and theres Buddy!
in 2022, McLean is behind Armatey, Ladhams and Reid in terms of ruck ability. He also didn't ruck much (if at all) last year, so I dont reckon he's first choice (more like 3rd-4th) for the position of forward/ruck

Armatey signed a 2 year contract extension early last season, McLean signed a 2 year contract extension at the end of the trade period. This suggests to me that the Swans were willing (not wanting) to trade McLean, but there were no takers, and are more keen on Armatey.
I reckon McLean is great to have on the list as someone that doesn't cost much and can play a role in the senior side if needed. He offers excellent depth

I agree with a lot of what you say but (there's always a but!) I think his movement issues are agility (changing direction quickly) and leaping (Amartey has a stunning leap). He's a rock solid mark and a very strong and accurate kick. With Buddy in the team no-one else will get 50+ goals because he DEMANDS the ball and gets it.
Once Bud and Hick retire or fade I believe we will have a very solid tall brigade of McLean at FF, McDonald roaming at CHF and Amartey as 3rd tall and ruck cut out. All quite young and having trained and played together for some time.

 

[caesar88]

I maintain that I won't be surprised if McLean ends up playing the same amount of games as McDonald this year, if not more. I think we can all agree that Logan is the most talented with the highest ceiling of all our young talls. But he is still a second-year key forward prospect. It's entirely possible that he won't be as good as McLean is yet, given McLean is 23, with a few extra pre-seasons under his belt and bigger and stronger than Logan the teenager is. They also play different styles - Logan the more athletic roaming forward, McLean the less mobile, more contested forward - so they could also work well in the same forward line, as we saw against Brisbane and Richmond last year.

But do I think Logan has a 4 goal haul in him, or an 18 possession, 1 goal, 5 contested mark, 6 tackle game in him this year? Probably not. McLean does, and that gives him every chance IMO.

 

[SGBeach]

I maintain that I won't be surprised if McLean ends up playing the same amount of games as McDonald this year, if not more. I think we can all agree that Logan is the most talented with the highest ceiling of all our young talls. But he is still a second-year key forward prospect. It's entirely possible that he won't be as good as McLean is yet, given McLean is 23, with a few extra pre-seasons under his belt and bigger and stronger than Logan the teenager is. They also play different styles - Logan the more athletic roaming forward, McLean the less mobile, more contested forward - so they could also work well in the same forward line, as we saw against Brisbane and Richmond last year.

But do I think Logan has a 4 goal haul in him, or an 18 possession, 1 goal, 5 contested mark, 6 tackle game in him this year? Probably not. McLean does, and that gives him every chance IMO.

Yep,, reckon Mclean will play this year, and maybe more than McDonald.
But . Buddy is first choice and if his body gives us 20 games, then great
Logan is next and I reckon will be prioritised over McLean for the 10-15 games the club has planned for him and his development.
So what Im saying is, McLean offers excellent depth / backup for Buddy and McDonald in 2022. Younger than Buddy and older than McDonald.
Then theres Paddy to throw in to the equation?? plays similar to McLean

It was interesting listening to Kinnear talk about the talls available at our draft pick. Kinnear wasn't interested in average talls. I think our list contains enough depth in talls (being McLean and Armatey) that we dont need to draft any more average players. It sounded like Kinnear was waiting for the 2022 draft to try and grab an elite KPP.. King (from academy) and 2 x 1st round picks... should be able to get 1 or 2 good ones.

 

[SGBeach]

I agree with a lot of what you say but (there's always a but!) I think his movement issues are agility (changing direction quickly) and leaping (Amartey has a stunning leap). He's a rock solid mark and a very strong and accurate kick. With Buddy in the team no-one else will get 50+ goals because he DEMANDS the ball and gets it.
Once Bud and Hick retire or fade I believe we will have a very solid tall brigade of McLean at FF, McDonald roaming at CHF and Amartey as 3rd tall and ruck cut out. All quite young and having trained and played together for some time.

Yep,, I was thinking of post Buddy. Anyone playing as basically a 'stay at home' forward will need to kick alot of goals.
Still not convinced McLean is that player.
So in two(ish) years, post Buddy, Reid, Hickey (Ladhams to ruck).. will the forward line include McLean, McDonald, Amartey? What about Paddy McCartin and 2022 draftees, or any trades???
will be an interesting transition

 

[caesar88]

Yep,, reckon Mclean will play this year, and maybe more than McDonald.
But . Buddy is first choice and if his body gives us 20 games, then great
Logan is next and I reckon will be prioritised over McLean for the 10-15 games the club has planned for him and his development.
So what Im saying is, McLean offers excellent depth / backup for Buddy and McDonald in 2022. Younger than Buddy and older than McDonald.
Then theres Paddy to throw in to the equation?? plays similar to McLean

It was interesting listening to Kinnear talk about the talls available at our draft pick. Kinnear wasn't interested in average talls. I think our list contains enough depth in talls (being McLean and Armatey) that we dont need to draft any more average players. It sounded like Kinnear was waiting for the 2022 draft to try and grab an elite KPP.. King (from academy) and 2 x 1st round picks... should be able to get 1 or 2 good ones.

If Logan's not cutting it though, which is very possible - again, he's only 19 playing key forward - then he will be dropped, even if it means he doesn't end up playing 10-15 games for the year. And if McLean shows more in the pre-season than Logan, he will be selected over Logan, and may end up keeping his spot over Logan if he performs well enough.

Horse won't compromise a functioning, in-form forward line and the team's success just for Logan's development.

Think we are past the days of 2019/20 when we gave kids plenty of opportinities for the sake of the future. Personally I think it's exciting. One or two below par performances and you might not get selected. Gonna be so interesting seeing who steps up under that pressure.

 

[Punts]

They will give McDonald every opportunity this season

Wil get a gig before McLean to start imo

 

[SGBeach]

If Logan's not cutting it though, which is very possible - again, he's only 19 playing key forward - then he will be dropped, even if it means he doesn't end up playing 10-15 games for the year. And if McLean shows more in the pre-season than Logan, he will be selected over Logan, and may end up keeping his spot over Logan if he performs well enough.

Horse won't compromise a functioning, in-form forward line and the team's success just for Logan's development.

Think we are past the days of 2019/20 when we gave kids plenty of opportinities for the sake of the future. Personally I think it's exciting. One or two below par performances and you might not get selected. Gonna be so interesting seeing who steps up under that pressure.

sure. i agree..
but why wouldn't it go the other way and McDonald have a better season than McLean?
McLean 2021...... 11 games = 11 goals; 5 games he kicked 0 goals; 3 games he kicked 1 goal

McDonald will still be managed, and either way, his development will still be high on Horses agenda - higher than McLeans development.
nb.. Im a fan of McLean, I just dont see what others see. In saying that, I reckon he has a great opportunity (due to the age of our KPFs) to make his mark

 

[caesar88]

sure. i agree..
but why wouldn't it go the other way and McDonald have a better season than McLean?
McLean 2021...... 11 games = 11 goals; 5 games he kicked 0 goals; 3 games he kicked 1 goal

McDonald will still be managed, and either way, his development will still be high on Horses agenda - higher than McLeans development.
nb.. Im a fan of McLean, I just dont see what others see. In saying that, I reckon he has a great opportunity (due to the age of our KPFs) to make his mark

It could go the other way, that's my whole point. I don't know who will be better this year because both have good cases and both will have their opportunities. Many on this board seem to think it's a given that Logan will be prioritised over McLean, and I just don't see it that way.

I think the one who will be prioritised is whoever Horse thinks will give us the best chance to win each week.

 

[Slingshot Footy]

I just wish we were as spoiled with key defenders as we are with key forwards. I really hope we keep hold of all of them as we manage our list in the next couple of years. It would be a shame to lose either Amartey or McLean at the end of next year as they both possess a skillset that makes them invaluable to our forward setup. I suspect the biggest loser from Ladhams arrival is Amartey and he will play the least amount of games out of the emerging crop.

 

[SGBeach]

I just wish we were as spoiled with key defenders as we are with key forwards. I really hope we keep hold of all of them as we manage our list in the next couple of years. It would be a shame to lose either Amartey or McLean at the end of next year as they both possess a skillset that makes them invaluable to our forward setup. I suspect the biggest loser from Ladhams arrival is Amartey and he will play the least amount of games out of the emerging crop.

Yep, Ladhams signature puts alot of pressure on Armatey. Bummer, I reckon he has a massive upside. In saying that, Armatey will probably be content with only a few senior games this year. If Hickey or Ladhams get injured, Armatey is next in line.. and he's contracted until the end of 2023.

We all seem to be sure that the Swans are short a KPD. I dont think its that bad
Tommy Mac - Got AA written all over him
Melican - Good player if he stays fit .. and Im beginning to have hope he will. I think the trainer/physio/medical team is pretty good
Gould - trained as a KPD in 2021 and yet to debut.. he will be itching for a game
OConnor - Has shown signs
Blakey - adds height and intercepting ability
Rampe & Fox - both capable KPDs
Paddy Mac & Reid - both maybes??

Can see us picking up a couple of quality talls in the 2022 draft as a few of our older players retire or get very close to retirement.
ps.. I hope we go to the draft and not spend all our draft hand on a trade

 

[Punts]

I just wish we were as spoiled with key defenders as we are with key forwards. I really hope we keep hold of all of them as we manage our list in the next couple of years. It would be a shame to lose either Amartey or McLean at the end of next year as they both possess a skillset that makes them invaluable to our forward setup. I suspect the biggest loser from Ladhams arrival is Amartey and he will play the least amount of games out of the emerging crop.

Have Moore in 23

 

[Kiama Chris]

It could go the other way, that's my whole point. I don't know who will be better this year because both have good cases and both will have their opportunities. Many on this board seem to think it's a given that Logan will be prioritised over McLean, and I just don't see it that way.

I think the one who will be prioritised is whoever Horse thinks will give us the best chance to win each week.

McLean (and Amartey) are significantly older than McDonald and have had more footy. Both are decent athletes, although perhaps coming to that a little later. Their bodies are more mature. McLean is definitely keen to improve. I don't know about Amartey.
McDonald has had high expectations placed on him from an earlier age than the others. He has shown willing and keenness to develop himself.
All three are team first players. This has impacted McLean's numbers quite a lot but is probably a big part of why he was the one chosen for the final over Reid.
Horse has said he wants to get games into McDonald but for sure he will be looking for the best balance and function.
Good to see pics of Ladhams with a better haircut (yes, I'm old) and taking training really seriously because if he doesn't he'll start as the ruck or CHF in ressies.
With this much competition, there won't be too many gifts.
Assuming Paddy does come on board I still think we'll be seeing him as a KPD unless something goes pear shaped.

 

[caesar88]

I don't put much into pre-season form but if true that Stephens has been a standout that makes things very interesting, as with pre-season hit-outs coming up, it means he will be given a run in the midfield, likely on the wing but possibly even on the inside if he's shown enough. They will essentially be a chance for him to overtake an incumbent. Big ask though.

Longmire: Stephens super impressive during pre-season

Sydney Swans coach John Longmire has lauded Dylan Stephens for a standout pre-season and says the young midfielder is now brimming with confidence as he looks forward to a breakout 2022 season.

www.sydneyswans.com.au

 

[rustycrate]

Our problem

Yep, Ladhams signature puts alot of pressure on Armatey. Bummer, I reckon he has a massive upside. In saying that, Armatey will probably be content with only a few senior games this year. If Hickey or Ladhams get injured, Armatey is next in line.. and he's contracted until the end of 2023.

We all seem to be sure that the Swans are short a KPD. I dont think its that bad
Tommy Mac - Got AA written all over him
Melican - Good player if he stays fit .. and Im beginning to have hope he will. I think the trainer/physio/medical team is pretty good
Gould - trained as a KPD in 2021 and yet to debut.. he will be itching for a game
OConnor - Has shown signs
Blakey - adds height and intercepting ability
Rampe & Fox - both capable KPDs
Paddy Mac & Reid - both maybes??

Can see us picking up a couple of quality talls in the 2022 draft as a few of our older players retire or get very close to retirement.
ps.. I hope we go to the draft and not spend all our draft hand on a trade

in the KPD department is not the quantity but the quality to take on the monster forwards.
Arguably we could have won the Hawthorn game and the GWS final games had we had a big KPD. We were monstered down back in those two games and it wasn't as if the guys didn't try or that they took us by surprise. Their key forwards we just too big and powerful.

 

[Punts]

Wait to a real game and pressure is on

Will drop his head and turn to water

 

[caesar88]

Wait to a real game and pressure is on

Will drop his head and turn to water

Maybe. As I said, I don't put a lot of stock into pre-season form. Some peak over the summer, others pace themselves until the real stuff begins. But a strong showing over pre-season will earn Stephens a spot in the pre-season games, and from there it officially puts him on an even playing field with the rest of the players. Warner & Wicks made their moves on Stephens & Hayward's respective spots in those pre-season games last year. If Stephens is gonna do the same this year, I reckon his best chance is in those pre-season games.

 

[Punts]

chad will go another level IMO

Love that break away speed from congestion

 

[BloodySwan]

Warner, Heeney and Stephens all singled out for their preseason training. If we can get some improvement from the middle it'll make a huge difference

 

[Deccas]

Yep,, I was thinking of post Buddy. Anyone playing as basically a 'stay at home' forward will need to kick alot of goals.
Still not convinced McLean is that player.
So in two(ish) years, post Buddy, Reid, Hickey (Ladhams to ruck).. will the forward line include McLean, McDonald, Amartey? What about Paddy McCartin and 2022 draftees, or any trades???
will be an interesting transition

It's a great question. I think it will, any of this year's draftees will be teenage keys which take a good few years to come on. I am pretty attached and have high hopes for both McLean and Amarty. I think McLean will steadily improve and end up being McDonald's long term partner, enforcer workhorse etc, Amarty a utility forward ruck and ladhams pure ruck. Any draftees etc will have to prove themselves to displace those ahead of them and it's certainly possible, but that's the scenario I'm taking as baseline.

Paddy we seem to consider a full back (I think McClean could really work there tbh).

The 50 goals a year thing I think is a bit much. That would make him pretty much one of the best handful of key forwards in the competition. There are plenty of key forwards that play 100 200 games who are never in that handful of the best. He will need to be good enough to demand a decent player, put the fear of being smacked into in a marking contest into anyone, kick one or two most games and occasionally get off the chain and kick a bag, and be a get out option down the line from defence and absolutely hold a spot I'd say. That is Sam Reid though so I'm sure he will be much maligned but that's enough to earn a spot in a forward set up capable of winning plenty of games and hopefully a premiership or 5.

 

[Deccas]

Jeeze it's miserable to write of a player who gets drafted at 60 odd kilos after a year or two.

Wait to a real game and pressure is on

Will drop his head and turn to water

 

[Slingshot Footy]

Our problem

in the KPD department is not the quantity but the quality to take on the monster forwards.
Arguably we could have won the Hawthorn game and the GWS final games had we had a big KPD. We were monstered down back in those two games and it wasn't as if the guys didn't try or that they took us by surprise. Their key forwards we just too big and powerful.

To be fair, in those games you referenced, it wasn't so much the opposition forwards as it was the mids absolutely monstering us. If your forwards are given quality and ample supply it's really hard to utensil up the majority of the time. Hogan was the beneficiary of some sublime delivery from the Giants mids in the first half of that final and Melican, I think, unfairly wore a lot of the blame for the loss.

Regardless, our defence has now become the weakest cog in our well oiled machine (after years of being the opposite) and we have a lot to work on to rectify it to be a real contender should we progress to finals in 2022.

 

[rustycrate]

To be fair, in those games you referenced, it wasn't so much the opposition forwards as it was the mids absolutely monstering us. If your forwards are given quality and ample supply it's really hard to utensil up the majority of the time. Hogan was the beneficiary of some sublime delivery from the Giants mids in the first half of that final and Melican, I think, unfairly wore a lot of the blame for the loss.

Regardless, our defence has now become the weakest cog in our well oiled machine (after years of being the opposite) and we have a lot to work on to rectify it to be a real contender should we progress to finals in 2022.

I disagree(amicably). The ball went into a contest quite a few times. Hogan won the ball easily against our "talls". If not for Hogan's bad goal kicking they would have smashed us. IMO has we had a monster KPD we would have won easily.
I'm not sure how this is fixed.
But it is a problem.

 

[caesar88]

To be fair, in those games you referenced, it wasn't so much the opposition forwards as it was the mids absolutely monstering us. If your forwards are given quality and ample supply it's really hard to utensil up the majority of the time. Hogan was the beneficiary of some sublime delivery from the Giants mids in the first half of that final and Melican, I think, unfairly wore a lot of the blame for the loss.

I completely agree. Oddly enough, I think our midfield was our best-performing area of the day. We broke even with, and in some ways beat them, in terms of winning territory, getting it from the inside to the outside, using the ball well inside 50 (even if not to the lofty standards we'd set for ourselves.) But our midfield is absolutely shocking at running both ways and applying defensive pressure. Once the opposition gets it against our mids it is curtains nearly every time. And GWS are one of those teams (Port and Freo others) who have the kind of midfield with just enough speed and just enough hardness to cause us headaches. So it sucked we got them for a match-up in a final.

Melican was also in his third game back from injury. Not that it's an excuse, considering you see someone like Buddy miss a year of footy and come back and put on clinics. But it's just well-established that Melican takes time to get back into form, that's the frustrating reality of who he is as a player, and so criticising him for scratchy form when underdone is something I'm not particularly fond of.

Dissecting the elimination final as a whole I find to be a bit of a pointless exercise as it was an amalgamation of ****-ups that were almost entirely unique to that day. Buddy missing a clutch goal late. Wicks, even with his accuracy issues all year, never failed when it came to snaps around the body, yet he failed on this occasion. Dawson, the best kick in our team, left his kicking boots at home. McInerney, who has the ball on a string usually, was nowhere near it. Warner, who himself was underdone, coughed up two stoppage goals to Greene. Even Bell, as flawed as he may be as a player, is better than the goal he missed.

 

[rustycrate]

I completely agree. Oddly enough, I think our midfield was our best-performing area of the day. We broke even with, and in some ways beat them, in terms of winning territory, getting it from the inside to the outside, using the ball well inside 50 (even if not to the lofty standards we'd set for ourselves.) But our midfield is absolutely shocking at running both ways and applying defensive pressure. Once the opposition gets it against our mids it is curtains nearly every time. And GWS are one of those teams (Port and Freo others) who have the kind of midfield with just enough speed and just enough hardness to cause us headaches. So it sucked we got them for a match-up in a final.

Melican was also in his third game back from injury. Not that it's an excuse, considering you see someone like Buddy miss a year of footy and come back and put on clinics. But it's just well-established that Melican takes time to get back into form, that's the frustrating reality of who he is as a player, and so criticising him for scratchy form when underdone is something I'm not particularly fond of.

Dissecting the elimination final as a whole I find to be a bit of a pointless exercise as it was an amalgamation of ****-ups that were almost entirely unique to that day. Buddy missing a clutch goal late. Wicks, even with his accuracy issues all year, never failed when it came to snaps around the body, yet he failed on this occasion. Dawson, the best kick in our team, left his kicking boots at home. McInerney, who has the ball on a string usually, was nowhere near it. Warner, who himself was underdone, coughed up two stoppage goals to Greene. Even Bell, as flawed as he may be as a player, is better than the goal he missed.

If a ball gets bombed in repeatedly and the same monster forward gets it against the same defence. Its regardless of the midfield. Our defence cannot take contested marks against the biggest forwards. You can colour inside or outside the lines its a fact.
Hogan will beat McCartin more times than not.